jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
Moxiemike said:
Different kinds of trouble. Rich kids steal stuff, do lots of drugs.
Lower income crime is generally more violent.
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Fight Between N.O., Houston Students Leads To School Riot
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Different kinds of trouble. Rich kids steal stuff, do lots of drugs.
Lower income crime is generally more violent.
jayscheuerle said:
I know a VERY rich white kid who's family has large sums of money. He shot and killed his girlfriend when he was 17 and ran two miles in the woods to a friends house to tell him.
The rich kids at my old high school held down a 15 year old poor black kid freshman football player and took turns stuffing their testicles down his mouth.
Should we also talk about the Menedez kids?
I could probably dig up 15 examples to negate this.
But the rich kids aren't violent.... nooooo, only the poor blackies.
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
latergator116 said:
Races in Brooklyn:
White Non-Hispanic (91.8%)
Black (3.7%)
Hispanic (2.6%)
American Indian (1.2%)
Two or more races (1.1%)
Other race (0.8%)
I did research.
Unfortunately, I could only find references to North Providence.
Races in North Providence:
White Non-Hispanic (89.8%)
Hispanic (3.8%)
Black (2.7%)
Two or more races (1.8%)
Other race (1.6%)
Chinese (0.5%)
But finally found it:
Races in Providence:
White Non-Hispanic (45.8%)
Hispanic (30.0%)
Other race (17.6%)
Black (14.5%)
Two or more races (6.1%)
Other Asian (3.7%)
American Indian (2.2%)
Chinese (0.9%)
Asian Indian (0.6%)
I'm assuming that people who aren't exposed to what they're talking about generally don't know what they're talking about- that they've learned it from books instead of living it.
I may be wrong.
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
Moxiemike said:I could probably dig up 15 examples to negate this.
But the rich kids aren't violent.... nooooo, only the poor blackies.
And you know exactly how easy it would be to dig up 15 examples for each of your examples of the other way around.
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
jayscheuerle said:And you know exactly how easy it would be to dig up 15 examples for each of your examples of the other way around.
Of course. But do you think those black kids are inherently bad in the poor neighborhoods because you can read more about them in the local papers, or worse, see them getting the **** beat out of them by some over-zealous cop?
jayscheuerle said:
You said Providence had a 2.9% minority population, which is incorrect and way off (http://www.city-data.com/city/Providence-Rhode-Island.html.)
I never denied that Brooklyn, CT had a low minoruty population. I said that thadude10 probably doesn't teach in the city he lives in.
I teach in Providence. I complain about its traffic in other threads.
And I don't think you need to be "living it" (living what?) to recognize that expelling kids who get in fights is profoundly absurd. That means I would have been expelled from high school, and I bet a lot of other professionals on MR would have been expelled as well.
I'm glad people have given me second, third and fourth chances throughout my life. And kids in urban schools today -- who needs more chances than these kids?
Where is our mercy and our compassion?
And I don't think you need to be "living it" (living what?) to recognize that expelling kids who get in fights is profoundly absurd. That means I would have been expelled from high school, and I bet a lot of other professionals on MR would have been expelled as well.
I'm glad people have given me second, third and fourth chances throughout my life. And kids in urban schools today -- who needs more chances than these kids?
Where is our mercy and our compassion?
I just want to say, this is not typical. We have 65 new students from new orleans and they have been accepted with open arms at our school. I talked to one and he said that he likes SJS better than his school. I'm not sure why such a big deal was made over this... but, I dunno.
javabear90 said:
Same here. We have seven or eight from LA. A horn player, a few dancers, a LOT of theatre students.
And they've all been welcomed with open arms. Everyone is helpful, I've heard NO negativity regarding the evacuees, it's all good.
The symphony is even trying to raise $2k for the horn player so he can come to vienna with us, free of charge.
I love my little art school, about 2 blocks from the museum district.
WillMak said:WTF?
Even more disturbing, the good guy white coaches turned a blind eye towards the whole thing.
The kid who was assaulted ended up switching schools too. Pretty sad that he had to swicth schools and the other guys were just suspended. But I suppose their mommy and daddy intervened and let the admins know how horrific it'd be if they were expelled....
And we get to the problem with "middle/upper-middle class white folks these days-- you can do whatever you want, and if the people in charge don't like it, you can just sue the stuffing out of them.
FYI, they also called the act "teabagging"
How cute, eh?
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
Moxiemike said:
No, the kids aren't inherently bad, but there are a lot of "bad" kids in these neighborhoods. I walk and drive through them every day. Even the "good" kids are littering, defacing property, cussing and yelling without a thought that it's less than proper behavior. These are kids of all colors (but a single economic range). I sweep up their trash in front of my house. I listen to their filthy mouths through my open windows. I replace the wheel covers on my car and stare at the empty hole where my radio was. And get this - I'm not blaming the kids. It's their parents fault and crap parents begat crap kids. No teacher is going to undo what goes on in the other 16 hours a day of the kids' lives. And that overzealous cop is just as likely to be the same color as the low-life he is beating, most likely pissed off that the stereotypes that people apply to him are defined by the worst elements of his race.
Expelled? Suspended? Depends on the fight I guess, but records should be kept, parents should be brought in, charges filed if necessary. Expel them if a weapon is involved or if it's a beating (versus a single punch). Proper discipline has to be applied at some point while growing up and it's obvious that parents aren't doing it (and that applies across ALL economic boundaries). Most kids need less chances and more discipline, an understanding of responsibility for personal choices and a healthy respect for rules, laws and other people in general.
No easy answers for this, but saying that everything will be alright if you just give troubled kids a hug is absurd.
latergator116 said:
Its because they are second-class citizens in this country. Seriously, the first thing they teach you out here in Mass is the US creation myth. The folks who settled Boston likened what they were doing to building a city upon a hill. Which basically meant they thought they were the chosen ones. In this country, anyone who isn't successful is automatically at fault for their failures. No joke that centuries after Boston was founded, the creation myth still influences peoples' thinking
I've shadowed teachers at a Springfield high school. The High School is different from my suburban one. But only in the number of students per class, how students talk to their teachers (they call the teacher "Miss", which we learned is a show of respect in their vernacular), in how many APs are offered, in the number of Hall Monitors and the heavy presence of ROTC recruiters trying to put the poor seniors in body bags, so they can't go to college *(I mean, trying to get them to go to Iraq).
Moxiemike said:
Reminds me of some of the college kids around here. Spoiled, obnoxious brats who party, do stupid things, and basically terrorize the neighborhood. Really makes my blood boil.
jayscheuerle said:
Who is advocating this position? Kids who get in fights should be, and generally are, suspended. Parents are called in. Second chances (and third chances) come with significant consequences. Teachers are working for social change, and that involves a lot more failure than "hugs."
jayscheuerle said:
So I assume you're not an adolescent? Look, you can tell a 15 year old to be responsible as much as you want, but teenagers are by default irresponsible. Of course maybe you never did anything stupid in high school.
jayscheuerle said:
To some degree, you're right. But if teachers don't provide kids with the concrete skills, and the socialization, they need to engage the majority culture, how will they ever get out of poverty? Your implication that teachers should give up on urban youth is base and disturbing.
I appreciate your concern for "rules," but I don't appreciate your mischaracterization of my position. Mercy and compassion must be tempered by justice, but I'd hope you'd agree that justice must also be tempered by mercy and compassion.
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
thedude110 said:
I think we have more in common with our positions than apart. You take a more empathetic route to my personal responsibility route. There's no suggestion to give up on kids on my part, simply the observation that without dynamic restructuring in the home, there is little long-term ground to be gained. I'm not an adolescent, but I am raising a 9 yr. old girl who sees me as "hard-core" and I don't disagree. My own youth was at a time and place where kids got paddled in school (and at home) for stepping out of line and I remember any time I was on the receiving end. Your temperament suits your avocation very well and I'm sure just about any kid would rather have you teaching them than me doing the job (even if that was my forte), but as adults looking back they may wish that you had more of me in you.
jayscheuerle said:
As a general rule, "zero tolerance" should never be implimented with regard to (pretty much) anything. I mean, zero tolerance for murder... ok. But these asinine zero tolerance rules are what get kids suspended for having midol in school or get a 5 year old in trouble for kissing his classmate on the cheek.
Context means a lot, and not all fighting/"drug use"/"sexual harassment" is created equal, so why on earth would we treat it as if it was?
jayscheuerle
macrumors 68020
QCassidy352 said:
Fine then, zero tolerance within a context. The examples you give are just examples of bad rules.
Other than self defense, what is a context where punching someone in the face is acceptable?
Would you prefer a type of tiered "3 strikes" application of punishment for transgressions?
Stupidly wading into this fray...
If it was just a group of these kids fighting with a group of those kids, suspensions.
If it can be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that these kids belong to established street gangs, transfer them all to (preferably different) alternative schools where they'll be searched for weapons at the door. Let them learn a vocation other than dealing in meth and emptying clips at other gangs, of course missing intended targets completely but instead hitting innocent toddlers and elderly people downrange.
Why, yes, I get a bit irrational when it comes to street gangs... Why do you ask?
OTOH, lots of schools and communities have welcomed the thousands of evacuees who are decent people. To believe otherwise, it would seem one must intentionally be avoiding the myriad stories of goodness and decency.
If it was just a group of these kids fighting with a group of those kids, suspensions.
If it can be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that these kids belong to established street gangs, transfer them all to (preferably different) alternative schools where they'll be searched for weapons at the door. Let them learn a vocation other than dealing in meth and emptying clips at other gangs, of course missing intended targets completely but instead hitting innocent toddlers and elderly people downrange.
Why, yes, I get a bit irrational when it comes to street gangs... Why do you ask?
OTOH, lots of schools and communities have welcomed the thousands of evacuees who are decent people. To believe otherwise, it would seem one must intentionally be avoiding the myriad stories of goodness and decency.