Final Boot Camp To Be Offered To Tiger Users For $30?

[Earendil]

I believe that it's the developers right to determine whether to ask for money for the software or not. Apple is no different. My original comment was directed against the idea that there are basically two choices: Pay for software, or pirate software. And it was directed against the idea that "Writing software costs money, so we should pay for it". Neither claim is necessarily true.

*SNIP*

But see I think that is where people confused your post with a different position. No one was claiming that all software must be paid for. Personally I was making the claim that all developers have a right to charge comensation for code they write(even if they can't find any buyers willing to pay).

My own stance was not anti open source, nor saying that all software must be paid for, but instead was defending the other direction, the paid developer. I was claiming that coding is a time intensive task, and one that requires experience, skill, and education, and should be paid for if the developer so wishes.

The idea that Apple should or should not give away software is not an issue of open source, and all arguments for or against Apple doing either is not an afront to open source or a developer working in his/her spare time. It is a matter of whether a developer asking for compensation has such a right, and has such a right in this particular case.

Now if Apple were giving it away for free and people were demanding Apple charge money for it, THEN we could bring up the whole open source issue and a developers rights to give away software if he/she so pleases. And I have no problem with the open source community, in fact coding as we know it today would not be what it is without the extensive open source libraries, as I previously mentioned.

However it still stands that Apple is not an open source developer (though they do release some of their code), the developers are asking for money, and that is their right. It is their right because it was work, that requires a specialized skill most don't poses. I defended Apple on this position not because I think all work needs compensation, or because I worship money, but because of the huge bias and misunderstanding of software developers that I come in contact with daily. This board demanding Apple software engineers work for free was just enough to get a rant out of me

Now Evangelism, I think we understand each other, and can agree we stand on common ground, no?

 

[2ndPath]

Thinking about it again, I think it might just be a bad move by Apple to let the beta expire. While it might never have actively been promoted by Apple, it was publicly known that Macs had the new feature and big advantage of beeing able to run both Mac OS and Windows. Even if Apple didn't advertise this feature, many people bought the machine exactly for this reason. If this feature is suddenly removed and has to be bought back again, this might scare a lot of people away from Apple because they get the impression of beeing cheated.

Just if I remember how often I read on these forums the comments for potential swichers that they can try the Mac now with much fewer risk, because they just can install windows as well. In the public perception this is a feature of the Mac since Boot camp was first released. To take this feature away is legal for Apple, but it might make a lot of bad press. This might not just be worth it to earn a few more dollars from selling Boot camp for Tiger.

 

[jumpinjohn]

Wierd

I think Blizzard should give out WoW:BC for free, since the Beta already was. And most of its framework has already been done in WoW.

And Microsoft should offer Vista for free as well, since the Beta was, too.

Oh, and next time I am gonna test-drive a new car, I will demand to get it for free since trying it out was free, too!

Yes Absolutely!!! YOU get it!!!

I switched to apple 3 years ago and have no regrets. Prior to that I was an avid IBM ThinkPad guy. I never have seen so many whiners in all my life. And then to take it to the philosophical or relational level... Gee, I think that is wierd.

 

[Earendil]

Thinking about it again, I think it might just be a bad move by Apple to let the beta expire. While it might never have actively been promoted by Apple, it was publicly known that Macs had the new feature and big advantage of beeing able to run both Mac OS and Windows. Even if Apple didn't advertise this feature, many people bought the machine exactly for this reason. If this feature is suddenly removed and has to be bought back again, this might scare a lot of people away from Apple because they get the impression of beeing cheated.

I agree with you... in concept.
The catch is that Bootcamp was never installed with new Macs afaik. It required going to Apple.com and downloading it. Then, the entire installation processes and setup was not something your computer inept grandmother was going to be setting it. I would say that a fair number of people that understood how to get it running, also understand the concept of a beta app, and what the possibilities are there.

Also, Any emulation of Windows apps has always been paid for. Anyone wanting a Mac while also wanting to run windows apps on it was probably aware of virtualPC, which was a paid for program. If I tell them that now you can dual boot it with software from Apple, I think the assumption is that that software comes at a price, not as a standard.

When I buy a computer I know I am buying hardware. Functionality is brought out by different software packages which may or may not be included with the hardware. Bootcamp was not shipped with the hardware, so I don't think there is as much of an expectation of "free" as one might think.

Now I would agree with you 100% if bootcamp had come pre installed or was a simple install with the only beta warning being in the often ignored user agreement. However that isn't the case, so I think Apple will be alright in this.

 

[balamw]

Just if I remember how often I read on these forums the comments for potential swichers that they can try the Mac now with much fewer risk, because they just can install windows as well.

You're ignoring the fact that new Mac buyers will still get Boot Camp for free (with Leopard) when they buy their new Macs.

The ones caught in the middle are the people who buy Macs before Leopard and who don't install Windows before the beta "expires" whatever that means. Boot Camp is not needed after Windows is installed.

And if you don't like that you can always find directions to install manually and links to drivers at onmac.net.

Boot Camp beta was only released as a reaction to the onmac.net efforts to get Windows running on Macs.

B

 

[Detlev]

It is clearly stated that it is a beta product. Anyone interested in purchasing an Apple product purposely for the use of Windows either uses this product or Parallels and must have some knowledge beyond an neophyte's in regards to computers. Therefore, they were perfectly aware they would either upgrade to 10.5 or use the alternate program. In other words it was not given and then taken away, as say would be the case if all of a sudden we had to pay for Spotlight. You had to consciously make an effort to read, download, install, and use the program. If someone missed that it was a beta then it was their own fault.

Being a beta also invites more development. We have heard very little about the development of this utility. I do not expect it to be as mundane as it is now when incorporated in 10.5. Is there anyone here, now, making the conscious decission to NOT UPDATE their OS to 10.5? If not, why are we discussing this non-story? If so, download it now and get over it. It's free. It's not supported. It's a beta. If it stops working learn the hack. If you purchase a new machine post Leopard release then you will get the program anyway. Where is the debate?

 

[Westside guy]

There is already work being done to get the free boot loaders (e.g. Grub) working with EFI, so really you will have a free alternative to Boot Camp. The downside will be the lack of support, and a bit less user friendliness when setting it up.

 

[mklos]

I think some people are misunderstanding this just like they did with the 802.11n thing. First of all, Apple isn't making you buy this. Second, this is ONLY for users of Tiger. It will be included free as part of Leopard. Apple has already stated this at last years WWDC keynote address with Steve Jobs saying Leopard will inlcude the "whole package" of apps. Those include the next generation of Front Row, BootCamp 1.0, and the next generation of Photobooth.

Also remember that back when we all used Jaguar (OS X.2), Apple did the same thing with iChat A/V. They released it as beta during OS X.2 and then in OS X.3 they offered it as part of the OS and charged users of Jaguar $29.99 to get the entire version IF they wanted to use it.

I don't see why people are against this. Apple never stated that this would be free except with Leopard. Condering the other alternatives, I think $29.99 is a reasonable price to use Windows on your Mac. Its a lot more than just a hack. Some real time and effort is going into making bootcamp work reliably and also making the drivers for the Mac hardware work reliably in Windows.

The 802.11n thing was totally out of Apple's hands and if they didn't have to charge for it, I seriously doubt they would have. I don't see how anyone can compare the two.

 

[2ndPath]

You're ignoring the fact that new Mac buyers will still get Boot Camp for free (with Leopard) when they buy their new Macs.

The ones caught in the middle are the people who buy Macs before Leopard and who don't install Windows before the beta "expires" whatever that means. Boot Camp is not needed after Windows is installed.

There will always be the people who have to reinstall the operating systems at some point. I mean if there weren't any people needing it, Apple wouldn't sell it.

And if you don't like that you can always find directions to install manually and links to drivers at onmac.net.

Boot Camp beta was only released as a reaction to the onmac.net efforts to get Windows running on Macs.

B

Yes, there are ways to install windows without Boot Camp. And it doesn't really matter that it was released as a beta as a reaction to the sucess of the onmac project. From that time on the reason that you could "just install Windows on a Mac next to OSX" was an important reason to switch to a Mac. And if that suddenly gets a lot more complicated, some people will complain about Apple having crippled their machine. Let's hope it won't affect many people so there won't be a lot of noise.

Also the question is what happens when the beta expires. Will the versions which were downloaded before stop working or will there just be a charge for the download of Boot Camp. If it is the last, I don't really see a problem coming up.

 

[gwangung]

There is already work being done to get the free boot loaders (e.g. Grub) working with EFI, so really you will have a free alternative to Boot Camp. The downside will be the lack of support, and a bit less user friendliness when setting it up.

Ummm...and that's not worth $30 to some people?

 

[SiliconAddict]

I am opposed to anything that helps delay migration to the current OS X. While I think it's wonderful for all the laggards, I wish you had to buy Leopard to get Boot Camp. Each major OS X release is only $130 list $75 academic. So I think paying $30 to add Boot Camp to Tiger is throwing good new Leopard money after bad old Tiger.

ONLY a $130. Well my aren't we bleeding money out the pockets. Some of us may not be able to afford such things. Esp after blowing 3 grand on a medical bill. But hay. Its ONLY money after all.

 

[bobber205]

Last time i checked intel made the motherboard & the processor
last time i checked broadcom or atheros made their wireless cards
last time i checked seagate or toshiba made their hard drives.
Last time i checked matchita or pioneer made their superdrives.
Last time i checked ati or nvidia mde their video cards.

i can continue i mean if you narrow it down-apple keyboard, mouse and isight is whats left behind and they consider themselfs HARDWARE BASED COMPANY?

Have the nerve to charge for ONCE AGAIN 3RD PARTY DRIVERS?


Unless i am missing something with boot camp, the only diffrence is that vista does not support efi other then that is just like any oher intel based windows laptop. Which means a **** load of drivers and hardware are at your fingertips.

You know Earendil for being an excellent english prof.
You certainly do lack intelligence in other subjects.

Lol. What a dork? Do you think companies like Dell really make ALL their parts?

omg.

Ummm...and that's not worth $30 to some people?

If you've worked with Grub of Lilo, it's worth it. *still likes linux + grub though*

 

[SWC]

Bootcamp is a graphical front end for diskutil and a boot loader.

Diskutil is built in to the operating system (and free).

All you are really paying for is the yummy graphical front end and ease of use.

You are not gaining any functionality whatsoever from boot camp (other than a driver disk which includes drivers that should logically be provided elsewhere. I am not sure if they are yet) that you cannot get from command line diskutil and the bootloader available from refit.sourceforge.net

I guess since there are free video editing apps out there they shouldn't charge for FCP and since there are free word processors they shouldn't charge for iWork. No one makes you buy it. If it's not something you need than don't buy it stick with your free hacks. Again since diskutil can do it all (even though the functionality is only available via commandline) iPartition shouldn't exist either. Damn these companies trying to make money.

 

[Earendil]

I guess since there are free video editing apps out there they shouldn't charge for FCP and since there are free word processors they shouldn't charge for iWork. No one makes you buy it. If it's not something you need than don't buy it stick with your free hacks. Again since diskutil can do it all (even though the functionality is only available via commandline) iPartition shouldn't exist either. Damn these companies trying to make money.

Take it a step further: It's all free if you code it yourself! You don't need to spend a single one of your hard earned pennies on another piece of software again!

 

[Chupa Chupa]

if they are charging for work that has been put in to develop such prodcut, then i would like to see them justfiy that, cuz even a bunch of am. hackers can do that ... if they are charging just cuz they can, then it says a lot about the character .. doesnt make a whole lot of difference but then atleast the question doesnt stand out form the rest either.

(waiting for the day when someone qoutes my post and goes 'WHY ARE YOU ASKING A QUESTION???!!!!")

Whenever a new product comes, be it a flat panel TV, software, shoes, a song, the respective company has to fund the development costs. The goal is that sales will be good and in short time those costs will be paid off. When that occurs, the company makes a net PROFIT. Yes, they charge for the product because they can i.e., people will pay for it.

Capitalism is about getting people to pay for your product and making lots of money. It makes ZERO difference what a company's motive is for why or what they are charging for a product. It's not a commune, it's a for profit company.

 

[c-Row]

Apple did the same thing with iChat A/V. They released it as beta during OS X.2 and then in OS X.3 they offered it as part of the OS and charged users of Jaguar $29.99 to get the entire version IF they wanted to use it.

Yes, I wonder what people's reactions would be if the only way to get Bootcamp was to purchase the whole Leopard package.

"Boooh, those greedy bastards from Cupertino! Make me buy a whole OS just for Bootcamp! Shame on them! I will switch back to Windows now! "


Some people you just can't please...

 

[dragula53]

I guess since there are free video editing apps out there they shouldn't charge for FCP and since there are free word processors they shouldn't charge for iWork. No one makes you buy it. If it's not something you need than don't buy it stick with your free hacks. Again since diskutil can do it all (even though the functionality is only available via commandline) iPartition shouldn't exist either. Damn these companies trying to make money.

Hey, look.

I am trying to give those folks with grief about paying for boot camp an alternative.

I will be buying leopard (and it's bootcamp) the day it comes out.

That being said,

I think it is crappy that apple is charging $30 for boot camp for tiger users.

I also thought it was crappy that they charged $30 for ichat A/V.

and $30 for quicktime....

and $99 for itools^H^H^H^H^H .mac

I also find it marginally unacceptable that they charge $129 every year for an operating system upgrade.

crucify me.

Additionally, I think that calling refit a hack is pretty offensive. Open source <> free hack. Much of what you so fervently defend is built upon those "free hacks".

 

[uNext]

Lol. What a dork? Do you think companies like Dell really make ALL their parts?

omg.

nO WAY...

And all this time i thought dell was advertising for-intel, ati etc for free.

I mean i always wondered why when you went to configure a computer they listed 3rd party vendors

huh

So stupid of me

I am a dork.

How could i ever live now knowing that my computer does not have a dell chip in it but instead a 3rd party vendor
or is not a dell 3d card or dell hard drive.

Thank you for ruining my day

 

[Earendil]

Additionally, I think that calling refit a hack is pretty offensive. Open source <> free hack. Much of what you so fervently defend is built upon those "free hacks".

Not saying one way or the other, but Dictionary.com has this for the first definition of "hack": "Computers. to devise or modify (a computer program), usually skillfully."

And than Merriam Webster: 4 a : to write computer programs for enjoyment b : to gain access to a computer illegally

And then my favorite definition, which references a time when being called a "hacker" was a huge compliment (crackers were the evil ones), before the media ruined the word
UrbanDictionary.com:
1. To program a computer in a clever, virtuosic, and wizardly manner. Ordinary computer jockeys merely write programs; hacking is the domain of digital poets. Hacking is a subtle and arguably mystical art, equal parts wit and technical ability, that is rarely appreciated by non-hackers. See hacker.

Cheers
~Tyler

 

[hookedonitunes]

hey, i love my three apple computers and will surely upgrade to leopard, BUT i dont like ONE BIT that apple now thinks they have to nickel and dime us to death! what next? pay $1.99 for each incremental upgrade from now on? a yearly 'maintenance' charge? that apple is not run by mother theresa's is becoming more apparent, did you know that apple insisted on copy protection for itunes songs even when the artist/label did not?!

a piece of good advice, steve, don't fix something thats not broken.....

Actually, they're not nickel and diming to death. The draft-n specification was not listed as a supported feature on the Macs that shipped with them. Neither was bootcamp. Apple is simply charging for programs that will give new features to the Mac. This is no different than Microsoft charging people for Microsoft Plus (all the way since Windows 95) and no different then Microsoft's recent decision to allow people to upgrade to better editions of Windows Vista (eg Home Premium users can upgrade to Business edition or Ultimate by paying the difference). This is simply a standard business practice, and even I, a poor college student can understand this.

 

[Nym]

Ok Ok, I agree with the ones that see no problem in the fact that Apple is going to sell BootCamp for 30$ to Tiger users and really, some people just have to complain all the time which is sad.
Still, there is something that I'm kinda thinking about, which is, on the Apple website in the "switch" section (I think) it specifically says "Macs do Windows too" and it's been a very advertised Intel Mac feature, the thing is, not only tech-maniacs installed the BootCamp beta and Windows in their Mac's (I know a few dumb asses who did it, lol) ,so, what I'm trying to say is that this may be a wrong move for Apple in the sense that "Mac's can do Windows too" (and then add) 30$ for Tiger users! Because a lot of people bought Tiger bundled Intel Mac''s and I can see the confusion here. However, 30$ is virtually nothing for a piece of good software so stop complaining, I ain't rich but I can't complain when someone wants to get paid for it's hard-work. I love my work, but I wouldn't do it for free, I would scratch my nuts all day, it's funnier! My 2 cents.