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ltpitt

macrumors regular
Original poster
Feb 18, 2020
110
39
Hi all!

I am the very happy and proud owner of a few old apples.

A couple of iMacs (tray loading and slot loading) and an eMac.
The iMacs have 10.4.11 and the eMac Sorbet Leopard.
I am getting read to install something that will allow me to use Unix / Linux cli tools and utilities but I saw there are many choices available.

What should I choose?

All my installs are quite minty so far and I wouldn't like to ruin the installation testing / installing / removing them multiple times until I destroy the OS :D

What are your experiences and suggestions, in the present day for powerpc on the mentioned oses?

Thanks!
 
Hi all!

I am the very happy and proud owner of a few old apples.

A couple of iMacs (tray loading and slot loading) and an eMac.
The iMacs have 10.4.11 and the eMac Sorbet Leopard.
I am getting read to install something that will allow me to use Unix / Linux cli tools and utilities but I saw there are many choices available.

What should I choose?

All my installs are quite minty so far and I wouldn't like to ruin the installation testing / installing / removing them multiple times until I destroy the OS :D

What are your experiences and suggestions, in the present day for powerpc on the mentioned oses?

Thanks!

Generally, and from applied usage, I get the impression macports gets maintained most thoroughly of the three.

Discussion and support for macports stuff on this forum is fairly brisk and ongoing, and on the macports site, there are matrices on each port directory page which show how well macports project team members, on their test machines, were able to build a particular port on a particular OS X/macOS version and architecture (indicated by red “X”s or green “√”s). This can be helpful when determining whether something will build on your own system, but it isn’t a hard and fast rule. I use macports across all of my Macs — ranging from a G3 running 10.4.11 to a Core i5 running 10.13.6.

One thing which continues to be a bit vague about macports documentation, which can get sort of annoying after a while, is not being able to determine in advance whether a particular port will build/install before one actually runs an install command. For example, say I want to install Qt5.5 (for use in other GUI-based port applications later on): when running a “port search” on Qt5.5, the single-line description doesn’t indicate that this port will only build on OS X 10.7 and above. It’s only when I try actually installing the port that the error-out dialogue will report that this OS X requirement is needed. Consequently, especially on PowerPC systems, one can expend a lot of time trying to install a port which will never install on your build of OS X.

Homebrew on PowerPC, as memory serves, is supported/maintained via Tigerbrew, though I’m not sure how regularly ports/brews get updated/maintained for relatively slower PowerPC systems. Fink, meanwhile… I haven’t seen or read anything about Fink in ages, and I’m not sure of its project status presently.
 

wicknix

macrumors 68030
Jun 4, 2017
2,599
5,258
Wisconsin, USA
I'd also agree with macports. As far as i know its actually sponsored by Apple and has a large team working on it. It's all I use. Tried tiger brew years ago, but it lacked a lot of software.

As for not knowing if something will build on older systems.... If you dig in to the port files themselves you can open them in an editor (I use mc) and they generally say in the port file what the minimum requirement is. Not always, but a good portion is. You may have to dig through the dependancies port files also, as 90% of some software will build, but some required dependancies might not. If not clearly labeled you can also look for the word x86 in the port file. That gives the hint that it'll build on intel only ruling out powerpc. Not the best way to figure it out, but it saves precious cpu cycles and wasted time on something that fails to build by blindly trying to build everything thats available in the ports tree.

Cheers
 
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If you dig in to the port files themselves you can open them in an editor (I use mc) and they generally say in the port file what the minimum requirement is. Not always, but a good portion is. You may have to dig through the dependancies port files also, as 90% of some software will build, but some required dependancies might not.

For a platform designed, above all, to remove much of the guesswork in compiling open source and/or free software across multiple versions of the OS, this workaround remains the one vexatious sticking point which deviates from its overall (and broadly handy, fairly accessible) user-friendly mandate.

Even though I build and install stuff from macports regularly (most recently, building SDRangel on High Sierra, as a complement for gqrx), I frequently forget how if one drills deep into the port files tree, the information you mentioned usually shows up. It’s not the headspace I usually find myself when I’m more focussed on finding the port and just getting it built to run (the way my brain works, I have to be in the head space to dig and tinker beneath the bonnet, which unfortunately isn’t something I can switch on and off as needed; instead, I have to make it my plan for the afternoon/evening to do deep exploring and tinkering).

The other thing about macports I can’t put my head round (or am able to figure out): when viewing a repository for a particular port in a browser, to see what still lingers in the repository, one can see there are a couple (or even a few) earlier versions/revisions of that port gzipped, but from a command line, trying to request an earlier version will always fail (for me, at least).

This came up not too long ago when I couldn’t get the then-latest version of graphviz (a dependency for a bunch of other stuff, as you know) to build/install, but noted how on one of my PPC Macs, an earlier version — whose .gz archive was still present in the repository — did build fine some time ago on another PPC Mac of mine with similar specs as the Mac which couldn’t build the current version. Something fairly similar came up with coreutils in another situation.

Too long; didn’t read: if one can switch brain gears on the fly, there’s probably a lot of fixes/workarounds one can try to get the very most from macports, but it also requires a reasonable grasp of the inner mechanics of how macports is designed — not necessarily something which most macports users are likely to be able to tap into intuitively/instinctively. Other than that, for 90 per cent of what’s there, as you noted, a simple port install x will do the job with little fuss or muss.
 

wicknix

macrumors 68030
Jun 4, 2017
2,599
5,258
Wisconsin, USA
I hear you. The inner workings can be daunting, but i guess it doesn't really bother me because that's what i do. I dig, hack, edit, tinker, until i get things to work, or until it's over my head and i give in.

I don't want to go in to great detail, but since you mentioned trying to build older versions of things when needed, it is doable. Make a backup of said files port file, then edit the original port file and change the version number in the download link, or copy / paste the direct link (some require an md5sum as well. change that too) in the stock port file from said files web site. That probably isn't the macports way, or the correct way (i didnt bother fully reading the manual), but it's worked for me for various things.

I'm glad macports exists, and even if everything available in it can't be built on every arch or version of os x, it's library of software is still impressive. It can get frustrating at times sure, but what fun is it if everything "just works". ;)
 

barracuda156

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2021
1,594
1,187
Hi all!

I am the very happy and proud owner of a few old apples.

A couple of iMacs (tray loading and slot loading) and an eMac.
The iMacs have 10.4.11 and the eMac Sorbet Leopard.
I am getting read to install something that will allow me to use Unix / Linux cli tools and utilities but I saw there are many choices available.

What should I choose?

All my installs are quite minty so far and I wouldn't like to ruin the installation testing / installing / removing them multiple times until I destroy the OS :D

What are your experiences and suggestions, in the present day for powerpc on the mentioned oses?

Thanks!

Macports is the most supported for older OS, most flexible, and we have several people working on PPC.
 

barracuda156

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2021
1,594
1,187
Generally, and from applied usage, I get the impression macports gets maintained most thoroughly of the three.

Discussion and support for macports stuff on this forum is fairly brisk and ongoing, and on the macports site, there are matrices on each port directory page which show how well macports project team members, on their test machines, were able to build a particular port on a particular OS X/macOS version and architecture (indicated by red “X”s or green “√”s). This can be helpful when determining whether something will build on your own system, but it isn’t a hard and fast rule. I use macports across all of my Macs — ranging from a G3 running 10.4.11 to a Core i5 running 10.13.6.

One thing which continues to be a bit vague about macports documentation, which can get sort of annoying after a while, is not being able to determine in advance whether a particular port will build/install before one actually runs an install command. For example, say I want to install Qt5.5 (for use in other GUI-based port applications later on): when running a “port search” on Qt5.5, the single-line description doesn’t indicate that this port will only build on OS X 10.7 and above. It’s only when I try actually installing the port that the error-out dialogue will report that this OS X requirement is needed. Consequently, especially on PowerPC systems, one can expend a lot of time trying to install a port which will never install on your build of OS X.

Homebrew on PowerPC, as memory serves, is supported/maintained via Tigerbrew, though I’m not sure how regularly ports/brews get updated/maintained for relatively slower PowerPC systems. Fink, meanwhile… I haven’t seen or read anything about Fink in ages, and I’m not sure of its project status presently.

1. Indicators of ports health are not useful for PPC at all. Firstly, there are none buildbots on PPC presently, AFAIK. Secondly, red marks do not necessarily mean a port does not build.

2. IMO that is a feature, not a bug. We do not want to block some configurations unnecessarily – unless it is really impossible to build a port due to missing crucial features in SDK. In fact, those existing known_fail cases are not always known to fail LOL. Portfile will tell you that gcc12 is not available on 10.5, but it is.
Macports is designed for flexibility and distributed participation. If a port does not build – fix it and submit a PR.

3. >Consequently, especially on PowerPC systems, one can expend a lot of time trying to install a port which will never install on your build of OS X.
I disagree here. The only cases when I did spend a lot of time on a port were ones where I deliberately worked on fixing a port. Even then, in most of those cases I actually fixed a port in question and brought it into Macports. There are few more in WIP status. (Well, I did not try to do something crazy like fixing Clang or Qt5 for PPC, but even that is feasible, just gonna require enormous amount of hours.)
Otherwise it is simple: you invoke installation of a port, if it fails, you open a ticket at Trac.
 

barracuda156

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2021
1,594
1,187
If not clearly labeled you can also look for the word x86 in the port file. That gives the hint that it'll build on intel only ruling out powerpc.

If a port is known to build for specific arch(s) only, there will be a line `supported_archs` in the portfile. In such case `sudo port install` for an unsupported arch won’t work, Macports will spit out an error.
 

barracuda156

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2021
1,594
1,187
Generally, and from applied usage, I get the impression macports gets maintained most thoroughly of the three.

Discussion and support for macports stuff on this forum is fairly brisk and ongoing, and on the macports site, there are matrices on each port directory page which show how well macports project team members, on their test machines, were able to build a particular port on a particular OS X/macOS version and architecture (indicated by red “X”s or green “√”s). This can be helpful when determining whether something will build on your own system, but it isn’t a hard and fast rule. I use macports across all of my Macs — ranging from a G3 running 10.4.11 to a Core i5 running 10.13.6.

One thing which continues to be a bit vague about macports documentation, which can get sort of annoying after a while, is not being able to determine in advance whether a particular port will build/install before one actually runs an install command. For example, say I want to install Qt5.5 (for use in other GUI-based port applications later on): when running a “port search” on Qt5.5, the single-line description doesn’t indicate that this port will only build on OS X 10.7 and above. It’s only when I try actually installing the port that the error-out dialogue will report that this OS X requirement is needed. Consequently, especially on PowerPC systems, one can expend a lot of time trying to install a port which will never install on your build of OS X.

Homebrew on PowerPC, as memory serves, is supported/maintained via Tigerbrew, though I’m not sure how regularly ports/brews get updated/maintained for relatively slower PowerPC systems. Fink, meanwhile… I haven’t seen or read anything about Fink in ages, and I’m not sure of its project status presently.

We do not live in a world of perfect information. Before asking why information is not provided to you in a way you find optimal, it is worth asking, is such information available at all to begin with, and if potentially yes, then at what costs.
Nearly always nobody has all relevant information in full, at the needed time, and at desired cost.

Returning to the specific topic: at any given time nobody knows for sure if a ports builds for a given system, often even their own. Because to predict an outcome with certainty you have to fix all variables (assuming process is deterministic), which is sort of possible, but you need to build the whole tree of dependencies from scratch, identical versions of every one. Acquiring such information for thousands of ports is costly, then it has to be repeated for every update of any dependency. What is such information worth though? It is not clear, because an established fact that a port builds or fails with a compiler and tools chosen by default or by port maintainer bypassing defaults does not necessarily mean it also builds or fails with some alternative tool chain available in Macports. Also a failure as such does not imply something is broken beyond trivial repair (not patching the code but just choose correct settings for the build), build may fail for irrelevant reasons (case-sensitive OS on buildbots vs case-insensitive locally) etc.

In practice you can only expect some hopefully reasonable heuristics of a kind “if you use strictly default set-up, then most probably this gonna build or fail, or at least I think so”.

Leaving a few black-and-white cases (obviously a pre-built x86 binary will not work on ppc) and a few cases beyond reasonable doubt (say, Qt5 at the moment, or Rust) aside, what should be done with the information of such kind? Macports has a mechanism to make a port fail prior to downloading due to incompatible OS or arch. Problem: how this gonna be decided and how reliably. And whether such mechanism is anything good at all, since it may incentivize a maintainer to go easy way and ban some systems instead of fixing the build. So there will be spurious “incompatibilities”. Then, how an end-user is supposed to know whether this information is reliable at all, for his particular case?

And then, suppose a port maintainer already thought all this through and came to a conclusion that it is wasteful to spend time on acquiring information which is mostly useless in result.

Everything becomes far less reliable when we talk about PowerPC systems, since nobody tests anything, no CI, no buildbots, those who tested it 10 years ago think in terms of archaic compilers, and opinions largely amount to pure guesswork at best.

To sum up: the only way to discover is try yourself, and often fix yourself when something does not work as it should.
 
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