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pointandclick

macrumors regular
Apr 29, 2008
156
0
Someone ripped you off big time. That's three times what is normal.

His cut was 25, 29 for shipping, and something like 19 for tax. In the end the bill was about 75 more than the list price.:(

Firearms are like any other hobby, the expense far outpaces the utility. I like surplus/C&R guns because they *can* be cheap, and they have history to go along with them.

Seems like all of my hobbies are expensive. Cars, computers, guns... what else :eek:
 

noodle654

macrumors 68020
Jun 2, 2005
2,070
22
Never Ender
You're right.
and wrong.
If you have a suspect coming at you on meth, PCP or any of that **** - you may have to empty that thing before he stops. Strangely for a "Blue" state Pennsylvania has gun laws on par with some of the really red states. in PA all you have to do is show you have reasonable cause to think your life is in danger. You find a burglar in your house? That's all you need. Blow him away, let him expire then call 911.

As for the gun laws, you can expect them to get tougher. This country is getting more and more Euro every year.

Complete opposite across the river in NJ. You actually can go to jail for defending yourself and your home...
 

TechieJustin

macrumors 6502
Nov 22, 2009
270
2
Pennsylvania, USA
Complete opposite across the river in NJ. You actually can go to jail for defending yourself and your home...

Yeah, I know. My brother works in NJ. Socialism at its worst. I'll have to do some research, I'm pretty sure you can still shoot an intruder in NJ even if he doesn't have a weapon. Its not quite as black and white as you put it. Not that's I'm disputing you but I think there's more to it.
 

bobfitz14

macrumors 65816
Oct 14, 2008
1,265
2
Massachusetts
I love guns and I can't wait to get my Glock 19. But to answer you question bobfitz14: yes and no. They can be used for home defense and in many states concealed weapon self defense. There are two groups to each side of the debate. Some police officers I talked to don't carry concealed weapons off duty because they feel like sometimes an extra gun to the equation can only fuel the flames and exacerbate the problem. Even if someone is going to rob me for cash at gun point and I had a concealed weapon I would just give him the cash. I had to be really certain that he was going to harm me physically to pull out the gun. Because if you have a gun pointed at you and you pull out your gun quickly the guy who is most likely hopped up on adrenaline and doesn't really care about gun saftey is likely to have his finger on the trigger. One nice flinch and lead starts coming your way. But also in times when someone breaks into your house just showing the gun may convince the thief to leave. I am sure there are more crimes deterred by civilians just by the sight of the gun rather than the use of the gun.

GS Owner: Nice guns. If only California would stop with these stupid gun laws I'd own a proper AR15

thank you for the detailed answer! i would consider having a gun at my house when i'm older and out of college, but i would never try to get a concealed weapons license. just seems too risky..

You're right.
and wrong.
If you have a suspect coming at you on meth, PCP or any of that **** - you may have to empty that thing before he stops. Strangely for a "Blue" state Pennsylvania has gun laws on par with some of the really red states. in PA all you have to do is show you have reasonable cause to think your life is in danger. You find a burglar in your house? That's all you need. Blow him away, let him expire then call 911.

isn't what you just described similar to the gun laws in Texas?
 

clownbaby

macrumors member
Jan 16, 2009
37
0
Yeah, I know. My brother works in NJ. Socialism at its worst. I'll have to do some research, I'm pretty sure you can still shoot an intruder in NJ even if he doesn't have a weapon. Its not quite as black and white as you put it. Not that's I'm disputing you but I think there's more to it.

You are allowed to defend your home in NJ with deadly force. It really is that simple. In your home, you have no obligation to retreat. Is it wise to shoot everyone who kicks your door down? Probably not. Technically, can you? Yes.
 

TechieJustin

macrumors 6502
Nov 22, 2009
270
2
Pennsylvania, USA
You are allowed to defend your home in NJ with deadly force. It really is that simple. In your home, you have no obligation to retreat. Is it wise to shoot everyone who kicks your door down? Probably not. Technically, can you? Yes.

Then again it depends on the District Attorney. Those guys get bored prosecuting pimps, drug delaers and cild molesters. Like any lawyer they want to make a name for themselves; nail an upper class white guy who shot a poor innocent burglar who was just trying to get money to "feed his family."
 

macgeek18

macrumors 68000
Sep 8, 2009
1,847
729
Northern California
I don't own many guns,the only things I own is a 1907 Boy Scout colaspeible 22 and a 12 Gage single shot shotgun.

I plan on getting a Beretta 40 S&W or a Sig Souer 40 S&W as soon as I get my own place as a home defence gun.;)

Right now the only thing I'll have is my dad's Taurus 38 special revolver.Which is a very nice little gun and my favorite to shoot on the range,not to mention it's double action.:)For home defence against robbers it's alright,not anything else though,you get my point.:)
 

clownbaby

macrumors member
Jan 16, 2009
37
0
Then again it depends on the District Attorney. Those guys get bored prosecuting pimps, drug delaers and cild molesters. Like any lawyer they want to make a name for themselves; nail an upper class white guy who shot a poor innocent burglar who was just trying to get money to "feed his family."

There's always civil liability because apparently every criminal in America is "misunderstood" to some degree and we should pity them, but criminally there is no legal recourse for you defending your home. If you feel there is a threat in your own home, you have a lawful right (in NJ) to shoot that intruder. As I said before, should you? Maybe use discretion. Can you? Yes.

There are nuances to areas outside of your house, yards, detached garages, etc. but criminal prosecution is generally not something you'd worry about. It's the civil suits brought on by family members who think their little angels did nothing wrong and it was your fault.

The use of force guidelines in NJ are ridiculous, to be perfectly honest, but the defense of home is about the only thing they've gotten right.
 

GS Owner

macrumors member
Apr 30, 2009
85
0
Harrisburg, PA
You're right.
and wrong.
If you have a suspect coming at you on meth, PCP or any of that **** - you may have to empty that thing before he stops. Strangely for a "Blue" state Pennsylvania has gun laws on par with some of the really red states. in PA all you have to do is show you have reasonable cause to think your life is in danger. You find a burglar in your house? That's all you need. Blow him away, let him expire then call 911.
Pennsylvania is nicknamed Pennsyltuky; Except for Philadelphia in the East and Pittsburg in the West, the State is pretty much like Kentucky as far as firearms is concerned. There are more hunters per capita than almost any other State in the Union.

When you realized that 90% of the voters in Philadelphia voted for Kerry in 2004, it isn't very hard to understand why PA is a Blue State. The influence of Philly over the rest of the State cannot be underestimated. It even overshadows any influence from Pittsburg. In 2004 had the ratio of Pro Kerry voters in Philly had been the same as Pittsburg, PA would have easily been a Red State.

Pennsylvanian residents that have a clean record: No felonies, Honorable Discharge from Military, etc. (40+ Disqualifiers listed), after going through the appropriate paperwork can buy almost anything that goes boom or bang. We can Lawfully own machine guns, suppressors, cannons or artillery pieces (there is a retired mayor of a major City that owns a few Civil War Cannons), Any Other Weapons (Cane guns, pens that can shoot, and anything else that can be disguised), Short Barreled Rifles (barrel under 16 inches in length), Short Barreled Shotguns (AKA: Sawed Offs, “barrels less than 18 inches in length…has an overall length less than twenty-six inches”) as well as your everyday pistols, rifles and shotguns.

Federal Law Quoted back there. For the full regulation call up the nearest BATFE Office and ask for a copy of The Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, ATF P 5300.4. It makes for interesting reading.

Oh, yeah: I also have a License To Carry Concealed.
 

GS Owner

macrumors member
Apr 30, 2009
85
0
Harrisburg, PA
Complete opposite across the river in NJ. You actually can go to jail for defending yourself and your home...
There was a time when I went shooting my M16A1 on its Semi-Auto capability. I keep all of my magazines in what's know as a SAW Pouch; six 30 round magazines at once. I did not use up all the magazines I brought to the Range that day. I left three SAW pouches full of loaded magazines in the trunk of my car. I obviously brought my rifle in with me.

A few weeks later I made my mother happy by driving her to Atlantic City for her birthday and staying overnight. Yeah, 18 fully loaded Assault Magazines were in the trunk of my car.:eek: When I got back I mentioned on a Firearms Web site I mentioned me forgetting about the magazines. The famous line from Ghostbusters about "dogs and living together" was well quoted.:rolleyes: Not to mention what would have happened if I was busted for speeding.

About two years ago I was offered a job in New York City that would have paid me about twice what I have ever earned in my life. Not A Chance. I once lived in NYC. I well remember reading a short article in the New York Daily News: Some Dry Cleaner was murdered simply because some mobster accidentally left a phone book inside his clothing. I also well remember small store owners beng persecuted for shooting back at robbers that had held them up. Bloomberg can clean the insides of my Glock 17 with his tongue. His Mayors Against Unlawful Guns is a sham. More than a couple of mayors on his list were put there without there consent or knowledge.:mad:
 

dubels

macrumors 6502
Aug 9, 2006
496
7
You're right.
and wrong.
If you have a suspect coming at you on meth, PCP or any of that **** - you may have to empty that thing before he stops. Strangely for a "Blue" state Pennsylvania has gun laws on par with some of the really red states. in PA all you have to do is show you have reasonable cause to think your life is in danger. You find a burglar in your house? That's all you need. Blow him away, let him expire then call 911.

As for the gun laws, you can expect them to get tougher. This country is getting more and more Euro every year.

It would take a real big threat for me to take a life. A suspect strung up on meth, PCP or any of that crap would count. I doubt I would be able to take that person down even with a metal bat. I have heard stories from my neighbor who is a retired LT. in the local police force where they had to hit one guy strung up on PCP with 8 shots before he went down and he was still fighting. He actually said he would have preferred a shotgun to a pistol or a police issue M16.

But then again I do live near Oakland where a police officer shot a guy in the back while he was laying on the floor claiming he was going for his taser...

But to keep the pictures rolling here is a picture of my first pistol that I will be buying as soon as my Glock discount comes in: Glock 19 in OD with Trijicon night sights. Plan on getting an extended mag release and slide to do some action shooting once I get some training. Wanted a FNP-9 but the glock discount is too good to ignore.
glock19od01smjn7.jpg
 

theITGuy

macrumors 6502a
But to keep the pictures rolling here is a picture of my first pistol that I will be buying as soon as my Glock discount comes in: Glock 19 in OD with Trijicon night sights. Plan on getting an extended mag release and slide to do some action shooting once I get some training. Wanted a FNP-9 but the glock discount is too good to ignore.
glock19od01smjn7.jpg

The G19 is a fantastic gun...the OD is growing on me...my next one will be a G20 :D

Cheers.

-J.-
 

Lord Blackadder

macrumors P6
May 7, 2004
15,670
5,503
Sod off
A full-auto Mini-14 (probably the AC-556 version?) also makes an appearance in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, and it makes almost as much racket as Tina Turner does in that film. :rolleyes:
 

TechieJustin

macrumors 6502
Nov 22, 2009
270
2
Pennsylvania, USA
It would take a real big threat for me to take a life. A suspect strung up on meth, PCP or any of that crap would count. I doubt I would be able to take that person down even with a metal bat. I have heard stories from my neighbor who is a retired LT. in the local police force where they had to hit one guy strung up on PCP with 8 shots before he went down and he was still fighting. He actually said he would have preferred a shotgun to a pistol or a police issue M16.

But then again I do live near Oakland where a police officer shot a guy in the back while he was laying on the floor claiming he was going for his taser...

But to keep the pictures rolling here is a picture of my first pistol that I will be buying as soon as my Glock discount comes in: Glock 19 in OD with Trijicon night sights. Plan on getting an extended mag release and slide to do some action shooting once I get some training. Wanted a FNP-9 but the glock discount is too good to ignore.
glock19od01smjn7.jpg

What is so special about that gun? It looks like something SG1 would use.
What advantage would that have over a simple (true?) 1911?
 

dmr727

macrumors G4
Dec 29, 2007
10,455
5,248
NYC
What advantage would that have over a simple (true?) 1911?

Less expensive. Smaller. Lighter. Generally more reliable.

Don't get me wrong, my next gun will most likely be a Kimber 1911, and it might take the place of my Sig P226R as my favorite gun. We'll see. But for many purposes, nothing beats a straight up Glock.
 

TechieJustin

macrumors 6502
Nov 22, 2009
270
2
Pennsylvania, USA
Less expensive. Smaller. Lighter. Generally more reliable.

Don't get me wrong, my next gun will most likely be a Kimber 1911, and it might take the place of my Sig P226R as my favorite gun. We'll see. But for many purposes, nothing beats a straight up Glock.

How can it be cheaper and more reliable? There is no free lunch...
 

NRose8989

macrumors 6502a
Feb 6, 2008
629
0
What is so special about that gun? It looks like something SG1 would use.
What advantage would that have over a simple (true?) 1911?

Less expensive. Smaller. Lighter. Generally more reliable.

Don't get me wrong, my next gun will most likely be a Kimber 1911, and it might take the place of my Sig P226R as my favorite gun. We'll see. But for many purposes, nothing beats a straight up Glock.

How can it be cheaper and more reliable? There is no free lunch...


It's funny this topic came up because I conveniently own both. The Kimber 1911 was the first handgun I bought back in 2005. Since then I use only Glocks and the Kimber sits in the safe. Here's Why:

101_2584.jpg


Above is my Kimber Custom II TLE and my Glock 23. In order to do a good evaluation of each let's look at each characteristic.

Weight: Though I don't have a scale, The 1911 is significantly heavier than the Glock. The 1911 is made entirely out of steel. The Glock is part plastic, part steel. Some people will argue that steel is more durable than plastic. This obviously is true to an extent. The point being that the plastic used in these firearms is so strong, that if you found yourself in a situation where your gun could break, you probably have bigger fish to fry and you gun isn't going to help you much. Need more proof? Check this out, basically this guy drops his Glock out of an airplane.... and it still runs.

101_2587.jpg
Left: .45ACP Right: .40S&W

Firepower: I don't want to get into a "which caliber is better" war but it seems that it's not possible while discussing this topic. Anywho the 1911 carries 8 + 1 rounds of .45 ACP, basically a big fat slow moving round. My Glock in question (Glock 23) carries 13 + 1 rounds of .40 S&W, medium weight medium speed round. Yes the .45ACP is more powerful but at the cost of how many rounds you can hold. Personally I hate it when people say "but you only need one round, why not make it a big one?......." BULL$#@!. I say watch all of the police dash board cams when they get in shoot outs. The situation is filled with stress with multiple shots fired. Keep in mind that even though we are talking about rounds, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MAGIC BULLET (well, there is that blender.....anyways). Shot placement is absolute key, To me, This means that the Glock is a much more valuable tool because it carries more rounds, which equals more opportunities to have a positive effect on the target.

Accuracy: This one bugs me so much because both are far more accurate that the majority of shooters out there. Many people will say "oh the Glock isn't accurate", I really would like to see them prove this because I guarantee they can't shoot well enough to know a difference. In order to really prove which one is more accurate, you would have to secure both guns down to a vice and fire the same ammunition without an human interaction. Which in this case I really don't know which would be more accurate but I sure as hell know that no one will be able to tell the difference.

Ergonomics: This is very subjective because in the end, everyone is different. Both handguns point naturally for me so it's it not an issue, but for some the Glock has to sharp of a grip angle. Safety is also a big issue for me. The 1911 has two, the Glock has three. What makes the Glock great is that the user never has to know what those safeties are because EVERYONE who shoots a firearm should know that your finger should NEVER be on the trigger until your ready to fire. The 1911 on the other hand requires you to engage/disengage a thumb safety as well as a backstrap safety. To me, this is just an extra step that I have to take under stress, which isn't a good thing, but can be perfected and you can become very efficient. I just recently got my girlfriend into shooting. I chose to train her with a Glock is because we can spend more time working on her fundamentals instead of her learning the mechanics of a given firearm.

Price: Pictured above, the Kimber 1911 was new $802 after tax and came with 1 x7 round mag & night sights, the magwell and mag bumpers were extra. The Glock above was new $480 w/3x13 round mags & night sights.

$480 < $802 in case you were wondering.



BUT NROSE, YOUR COMPARING A COMPACT GUN WITH A FULL SIZE!!!!!!

101_2586.jpg


This is a Glock 35. Everything still applies but add 2 rounds to it's capacity, full 5" barrel like the 1911,and a improved trigger all for $540 w/3x15 round mags & night sights. Still lower than $802, but to me it's far more effective than any 1911.

Conclusion: To me, the Glock is superior in many ways to a 1911 but don't get me wrong, the 1911 is a fine handgun and a piece of history.


Additional thoughts:
- Notice that I didn't talk about reliability? That's because they both are proven in real world conflicts to be utterly reliable.
- H&K USP owners: You may not want to read the link above under weight..... you may realize that your $800 german combat masterpiece may not live up to what it is supposed to be.
- Triggers: Yes a finely crafted 1911 will have a very nice trigger compared to any Glock. One of the big issues that I come across when people try the Glock is that they just don't like the trigger.... and it's because they don't know how to effectively shoot the Glock. The Glock is a double action gun, meaning that on the first half of the trigger pull, it "cocks" the gun, then on the second half, it releases the hammer (or striker in the Glocks case), firing off a round. Now people generally just make this in one long motion, which is why they don't like the Glock. The Glock trigger really should be shot in "stages". Try this if you own a Glock right now (of course ensure that the firearm is safe and unloaded first). With a Glock cocked and in battery:

1. Ensure you get a good grip on the handgun and lightly squeeze the trigger until you feel a "wall" or it stops. That is the Glocks internal connector.
2. With the trigger half way pressed on that wall, acquire your target, and "break" the trigger. That break will feel more like a single action gun and greatly improve your accuracy.

Now once your on the range and get to try it for real.

1. Acquire your target with your finger off the trigger.
2. Once on target, place your finger on the trigger and begin to squeeze until you feel that "wall"
3. Align your sights onto the target, be sure that you focus on your front sight. Your target should be fuzzy as well as your rear sight, but your front sight should be clear as day. (a good method is to tell yourself in your head "front sight, front sight, trigger, squeeze".)
4. With the front sight clear as day, "break" the trigger.
5. Call your shot. if your did everything right, where ever the front sight was when the round went off should have a bullet hole.
 
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