Firewire 2 @ MWSF?

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by pgwalsh

I agree. I'm betting on new PM's tomorrow. So much iDevice hype on MR lately.

Two things here.

1. No new Powermacs tomorrow. I'm betting my proverbial farm on it.

2. There's been so much iDevice hype because there'll probably be an iDevice on stage with SJ tomorrow.

About the Powermac line. Depending on when IBM will really have the PowerPC 970 ready, I'd say the MDD Powermacs will be the last (or second to last) major Powermac update. I'm in no way ruling out speed-bump after speed-bump here, but nothing huge (except possibly Firewire 2)...
Not until it's the Powermac 970...

 

[iwantanewmac]

Originally posted by insidedanshead
Everyones bypassed the real question possed by this.. why would they release Firewire2 without a machine to put it in? Everyones insisting no powermac updates... and yet steves announcing FW2? doesnt add up....

Well.Maybe they will just stick it in the this seasons DDR towers with a minor cpu speed upgrade to go with it.
Another excuse for apple to stick with motorola for a while.

 

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by iwantanewmac

Well.Maybe they will just stick it in the this seasons DDR towers with a minor cpu speed upgrade to go with it.
Another excuse for apple to stick with motorola for a while.

Apple can't announce a switch to IBM and the 970 until they can ship machines with the chip in them. If they did, G4 sales would drop, a lot.

Besides, Motorola might still supply G4 chips for Powerbooks and iMacs (I really don't know who's making the G3s right now, I read something that said IBM made some of them).

 

[Beej]

Re: Oh....My bad then...

Originally posted by chewbaccapits
Thanks Beej....

No worries



Given that this FW2 product is not available until March, it is possible that:
1. There will be no mention of FW2 at all at MWSF
2. FW2 will be announced at MWSF, and be progressively introduced to new hardware as Apple's profucts are updated.

Both scenarios are perfectly feasible, and both mean no new hardware would need to be introduced at MWSF.

However, from what I recall, Apple's consumer machines are due to be updated before their pro machines. (I may be wrong on this, please correct me if I am. However, if I am right...) This would mean that either the consumer machines get FW2 before the pro machines - not an ideal situation - or the consumer machines don't get FW2 in their next update, meaning it will be another 6+ months until they do - again, not an ideal situation.

Another possibility is that the whole lineup is updated at the same time to add FW2. This seems unlikely.

 

[pyrotoaster]

You're right, beej.

Not just are both of your scenarios plausible, the consumer Macs are due for an update, probably within a month's time.

 

[IndyGopher]

Firewire PCI cards

Apple sold firewire PCI cards for the beige G3's before the Blue and White G3's came out, in order to support using digital (firewire equipped) camcorders with Final Cut Pro. The same thing will happen with the new firewire standard. The idea that announcing support for firewire 2 means releasing whole new computers to use it is either wildly optimistic or hopelessly naive.

 

[pyrotoaster]

But you can't put a PCI card in an iMac, can you?

 

[IndyGopher]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
But you can't put a PCI card in an iMac, can you?

No, you can't. And now there will be another reason why the Pro towers are better than the iMacs... for a revision or 2 at least.

 

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by IndyGopher

No, you can't. And now there will be another reason why the Pro towers are better than the iMacs... for a revision or 2 at least.

Apple needs to appeal to the home consumer, they won't screw them.

Besides, the iMac and the eMac are due for an update.

 

[Beej]

Re: Firewire PCI cards

Originally posted by IndyGopher
Apple sold firewire PCI cards for the beige G3's before the Blue and White G3's came out, in order to support using digital (firewire equipped) camcorders with Final Cut Pro. The same thing will happen with the new firewire standard.
...

I didn't know that. Even so, if Apple updates it's consumer models with FW2 and makes pro customers buy extra PCI cards to get what the consumers get for 'free.'

Now here's an idea... what if Apple were to update their consumer machines and offer free FW2 PCI cards with thier PowerMacs? It wouldn't solve the problem with the TiBook, but it would keep most people happy.

...
The idea that announcing support for firewire 2 means releasing whole new computers to use it is either wildly optimistic or hopelessly naive.

Neither, actually, but thanks for that . It was more of a 'someone who's serious about this may suggest it, so I'll just air my thoughts on that fact it is unlikely before people get wildly optimistic' comment.

--

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
But you can't put a PCI card in an iMac, can you?

No, you can't.

 

[lazyrighteye]

Ahhh, the calm before the storm...

Do Dell dorks ever get this hyped about their products?

Maybe FW2 is going to debut first in an iPod(ish) device (or set top box) - and not a desk or laptop... yet.

We'll know a lot more tomorrow. But I have learned not to get too hyped by MWSF. The higher you climb, the further you'll fall. And boy, have I come tumbling down in the past... ouch.

 

[locovaca]

Originally posted by chewbaccapits



Look what kind of IMPACT firewire alone has done.....Its taken time but its moving....

Uhh... what impact? DV cameras and low end, external storage. I remember how firewire was supposed to become the internal bus for all storage devices- that didn't really catch on. I know what it's supposed to do for stereo and home theaters, but I'm still waiting. My point was that Firewire is not used for high end equipment, be it editing, storage farms, etc. There you will still find rack mounts like Xserve/Xraid, NAS devices, and super high throughput devices dedicated and specialized to data storage, such as SCSI. 1. There still is not enough bandwidth. 2. High end drives are not made into Firewire devices. 3. Serious RAID arrays are made with dedicated cards with dedicated processors to handle the striping and cache ram.

Firewire is great for the consumer. My point is that, for the average user, it's not going to mean much. For the high end industry it's going to mean even little. It's a lot like comparing USB 2 to USB 1.1- some applications will get a boost, but the most general uses of USB (mice, keyboards, digital cameras, etc.) it won't mean too much. The reason it's even less dramatic with Firewire is because the original spec already had a gob of bandwidth by today's need.

 

[Beej]

Originally posted by lazyrighteye
Maybe FW2 is going to debut first in an iPod(ish) device (or set top box) - and not a desk or laptop... yet.

I guess that a posible. Given that FW2 is backwards compatible with FW1, you could still use this new device with your current Mac. I think it is unlikely though, why would Apple release some whiz-bang new DLD when no Mac, in fact no computer at all, can ustilise it fully?

 

[locovaca]

Re: Re: Firewire PCI cards

Originally posted by Beej

Now here's an idea... what if Apple were to update their consumer machines and offer free FW2 PCI cards with thier PowerMacs? It wouldn't solve the problem with the TiBook, but it would keep most people happy.

For TiBook users they could provide a Cardbus based PCMCIA card. They would still get the full 800 Mb

 

[Sun Baked]

The TiBook, XServe, PowerMac, and eMac run the dual chip UniNorth/KeyLargo.

The iBook and iMac run the single chip Pangea.

Here are the eMac and iMac block diagrams.

eMac http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/eMac/art/nor01.gif

iMac http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/hardware/Developer_Notes/Macintosh_CPUs-G4/iMac/art/ts01.gif

While the PNY (acts as firewire hub and supplies power) is probably used across the line, the UniNorth and Pangea have to support FW2 as does the KeyLargo and Pangea for USB2.

 

[kcmac]

by locovaca

Firewire is great for the consumer. My point is that, for the average user, it's not going to mean much. For the high end industry it's going to mean even little. It's a lot like comparing USB 2 to USB 1.1- some applications will get a boost, but the most general uses of USB (mice, keyboards, digital cameras, etc.) it won't mean too much. The reason it's even less dramatic with Firewire is because the original spec already had a gob of bandwidth by today's need.

You make some good points. However FW 2 is important in the fact that it must get the greater public perception that it is faster than USB 2.0.

Look how quickly the press jumped on USB 2 and the misinformation it spreads about the superiority of USB 2 just based on 480 vs. 400. It is another processor war.

This will keep Firewire in the limelight and maybe its impact will start to increase. The Intel machine kept the focus on the emergence of USB 2 which stalled the FW front. Soon it will be interesting to see what firewire can really do.

 

[Macmaniac]

I'm sure if it was FW2 it would be on the new iMac plus Apple would release a card for the Powermacs so they can use FW2!
Score one for Apple for making FW2 backward compatible, that will be a key in adopting it!

My Video editing side is droolin!!!!

 

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by locovaca



Uhh... what impact? DV cameras and low end, external storage. I remember how firewire was supposed to become the internal bus for all storage devices- that didn't really catch on. I know what it's supposed to do for stereo and home theaters, but I'm still waiting. My point was that Firewire is not used for high end equipment, be it editing, storage farms, etc. There you will still find rack mounts like Xserve/Xraid, NAS devices, and super high throughput devices dedicated and specialized to data storage, such as SCSI. 1. There still is not enough bandwidth. 2. High end drives are not made into Firewire devices. 3. Serious RAID arrays are made with dedicated cards with dedicated processors to handle the striping and cache ram.

Firewire is great for the consumer. My point is that, for the average user, it's not going to mean much. For the high end industry it's going to mean even little. It's a lot like comparing USB 2 to USB 1.1- some applications will get a boost, but the most general uses of USB (mice, keyboards, digital cameras, etc.) it won't mean too much. The reason it's even less dramatic with Firewire is because the original spec already had a gob of bandwidth by today's need.

FW and FW2 (whenever it comes out) are great for everyone. Everyone I know has seen what FW has done in the consumer and prosumer markets (and in indie films and documentaries) and they waiting for it to happen in the pro market. Companies like Panasonic and Sony are working on hi-end decks w/FW i/o. Everyone one wants keep it lossless and keep it digital. I've even seen HDTVs w/firewire i/o.

The problem is that companies, even small ones, have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars invested in their current analog equipment and they won't dump that at the drop of a hat. It takes a lot of time for people in production to change over (it's not uncommon to Avid setups running on 5 or 6 year old PowerPCs), but everyone is looking forward to the days when it's all digital, all the time, all on one cable (you ain't seen cable clutter 'til you've seen TV cable clutter ).


Lethal

 

[nickgold]

firewire ahead of its time

Originally posted by LethalWolfe


The problem is that companies, even small ones, have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars invested in their current analog equipment and they won't dump that at the drop of a hat. It takes a lot of time for people in production to change over (it's not uncommon to Avid setups running on 5 or 6 year old PowerPCs), but everyone is looking forward to the days when it's all digital, all the time, all on one cable (you ain't seen cable clutter 'til you've seen TV cable clutter ).

Dude, you toadally said it. Firewire is of the future, and the production world is whiny and conservative and already over-budget and definitely of the past, often. Standards take YEARS to develop, and then when they hit, last FOREVER. Even when they are well past their prime, technologically.

Firewire AV/MIDI/networking/bliss will happen, eventually. Give it some time. For most people, with current HD technology, I don't see FireWire 2 being all that useful. As has been said, most folks' HDs are already pretty much saturated. I guess FireWire 2 is more about marketting, at this point.... If it happens. (I don't see it.)

 

[locovaca]

Originally posted by kcmac
by locovaca


You make some good points. However FW 2 is important in the fact that it must get the greater public perception that it is faster than USB 2.0.

Look how quickly the press jumped on USB 2 and the misinformation it spreads about the superiority of USB 2 just based on 480 vs. 400. It is another processor war.

This will keep Firewire in the limelight and maybe its impact will start to increase. The Intel machine kept the focus on the emergence of USB 2 which stalled the FW front. Soon it will be interesting to see what firewire can really do.

You're right. It is exactly like the processor war because most PCs don't come with Firewire. So, people that look at PCs see USB on every machine, but not Firewire, so they buy USB periphrials. Go to bestbuy.com and do a search for usb- 264 hits under computers. Do a search for Firewire- only 13, and of those 13, only 3 are for actual peripherals. IMHO, that's why USB is being hyped much more than Firewire- not too many people have or even know about Firewire. So, it becomes another "minority market share with a better product" vs "majority market share with a not as efficient product"- kinda sounds familar, doesn't it? I don't think the public perception of the speeds will be as important as making it a standard on every machine. It took USB quite a while to catch on to the mainstream because it had to wait for everyone to get a computer that had USB- there were many MP3 players that came out as a Parallel port connection even though USB was better in every respect. If PC manufacturers put Firewire on every PC, you wouldn't see all of these USB hard drives, USB Dazzle video capturers, and even USB Flash Card readers (which, in many cases, do not go at the full speed of the card).

I'm not trying to debate the importance of Firewire. I guess I'm more cautious of the impact of FW2 vs FW. To me it seems more like a step on the ladder, like going from ATA 100 to ATA 133, than anything else.

 

[gropo]

Originally posted by locovaca
I'm not trying to debate the importance of Firewire. I guess I'm more cautious of the impact of FW2 vs FW. To me it seems more like a step on the ladder, like going from ATA 100 to ATA 133, than anything else.

If it's backwards-compatible, what's the problem? Production houses can start adding components as they see fit.

It will surely be a boon for the pro-sumer HD-DV market set to emerge this year. Canon and Panasonic will doubtfully choose USB 2.0 as the I/O standard on those puppies. FireWire1 would result in a buggy, frame-dropping intercourse.

FW2 will see many uses by mid-2004.