First Intel Penryn Chips Due in 2007?

[brianus]

Because the Penryns will drop onto the existing Santa Rosa motherboards without a problem, and because HP/Dell/Lenovo/Acer/... will have the 3GHz laptops from day 1?

So you're basing this prediction on what every company besides Apple would do?

Intel will always have something better coming down the pipe, Apple will look foolish if they continually fall behind because they're waiting for something better.

That hasn't stopped them from doing precisely that so far with their current product lines. Come on dude! And all you 'mini-tower' types: examine Apple's history, realize it's blindingly obvious they're never going to behave like a 'normal' computer company, and either accept it or move on.

 

[AidenShaw]

That hasn't stopped them from doing precisely that so far with their current product lines. Come on dude! And all you 'mini-tower' types: examine Apple's history, realize it's blindingly obvious they're never going to behave like a 'normal' computer company, and either accept it or move on.

If you're happy paying premium prices for older technology - fine with me.

 

[guzhogi]

BUt if the monitors arent at exactly the same height and size it can get disorienting moving the mouse back and forth between screens.

While you CAN go into System Prefs and change the arrangements of the 2 displays so the mouse stays @ the same position vertically when going in between the two monitors, you're right. It can be very disorienting.

I kinda wish Apple does put the desktop processor & dual-link DVI into the iMac & Mac Mini for that added oomph. I remember hearing rumors that Apple's discontinuing the Mac Mini. I sure hope not. It's a great product. It's great for the people who just surf the web, check e-mail & word process. Maybe combine that w/ an TV and add DVR/TiVo support, that would be a kick ass product! Another kick ass product, as many of you have stated, is a mid-tower. Powerful enough to get some serious stuff done, but not quite Mac Pro. Maybe 2 optical bays, 2 hard drives & 1 desktop proc. Maybe SLI/Crossfire support. The Mac Pro could probably add a few more optical bays and definitely SLI/Crossfire mode. But from what I've seen, fat chance. Apple would probably say that it either isn't doing well enough or doing too well and eating sales from the other products.

Another thing I'd love to do, but I know won't happen, is be able to build my own computer and run the full Mac OS on it w/o any hacks. I know, some of you will flame me saying "That'll never happen!" and whatever. But a guy can dream. Too bad I'm terrible at programming or else I'd make my own OS.

 

[AidenShaw]

what's the real benefit of using a conroe over a merom? in the practical sense... Just the bus speed increase?

Practical benefit?

minitower - $1050 for 3 GiB RAM (up to 8GiB), 2.4 GHz quad core, 1066 MHz bus, 400GB, 16x DL lightscribe superdrive, 7.1 audio with digital audio in/out, 19" LCD, integrated graphics with open x16 PCIe slot for upgrade, two open x1 PCIe slots, open 3.5" disk bay, open 5.25" DVD/disk bay, 2yr warranty ...

iMac - $1500 for 1 GiB RAM (up to 3GiB), 2.16 GHz dual core, 667 MHz bus, 250 GB, 8x DL superdrive, 20" LCD, ATI X1600 (not upgradeable), no expansion, 1yr warranty

This is more of a "why MiniTower instead of all-in-one" than a "why Conroe instead of Merom" answer....

BTW, if you'd stick an NTSC/ATSC tuner card in one of the empty PCIe slots, you'd have a Quad Kentsfield Mini-Tower/Home-Theatre-PC!

(full specs for HP A6152N) (link to full ad)

 

[Multimedia]

Thank You For Clarifying My Post From Long Ago

Practical benefit?

minitower - $1050 for 3 GiB RAM, 2.4 GHz quad core, 1066 MHz bus, 400GB, 16x DL lightscribe superdrive, 19" LCD, integrated graphics with open x16 PCIe slot for upgrade, two open PCIe slots, open 3.5" disk bay, open 5.25" DVD/disk bay, 2yr warranty ...

iMac - $1500 for 1 GiB RAM, 2.16 GHz dual core, 667 MHz bus, 250 GB, 8x DL superdrive, 20" LCD, ATI X1600 (not upgradeable), no expansion, 1yr warranty

This is more of a "why MiniTower instead of all-in-one" than a "why Conroe instead of Merom" answer....

(full specs for HP A6152N) (link to full ad)

This is exactly what I meant when I said if the new iMacs aren't Core 2 Quad I just don't understand Apple any more. Fact is they are cheating their customers out of a lot more power they could deliver for less money than what they offer now and it is a mystery to me why other than pure corporate GREED.

I'm seriously tempted to run over there and pick one of those up today.

By the time you lose the 1440 x 900 monitor which lists for $230 on eBay it's $770 for almost 10GHz of power. Screw it, I'm gonna go get one. JK. FYI as of 10am Campbell has 5 and San Jose has 10 left.

 

[AidenShaw]

I'm seriously tempted to run over there and pick one of those up today.

Maybe I'll see you in line, I'm going to send one to my sister.


Now all we have to do is wait for the fanbois to respond with the usual...

"but that HP is *fugly*..."​

By the way, my argument is to add a mini-tower to the lineup - not to drop the iMac all-in-one. Clearly there would be price/performance advantages to moving the iMac to the Conroe line of processors, but if people^H^H^H^H^H Jobs would rather have super-thin than higher performance at a lower price....

 

[scrambledwonder]

Meh

Whatever. I'm waiting until the next one.

 

[maccompaq]

Maybe I'll see you in line, I'm going to send one to my sister.


Now all we have to do is wait for the fanbois to respond with the usual...

"but that HP is *fugly*..."​

By the way, my argument is to add a mini-tower to the lineup - not to drop the iMac all-in-one. Clearly there would be price/performance advantages to moving the iMac to the Conroe line of processors, but if people^H^H^H^H^H Jobs would rather have super-thin than higher performance at a lower price....

Vista, to my knowledge, has not been optimized for multiple processors like the Mac. Why spend $999 for a HP when you can get by with half the processors for half the price at HP?

I want a Mac tower placed in the lineup between Mac Mini and iMac. A Core2 will be alright. As long as I can get at the inards, I don't care what it looks like: Mac Cube, Power Mac G4, HP box, etc.

I already have a Compaq with an Athlon 64 at 2.41 Ghz. Now I want a Mac of like power at a reasonable price.

 

[MacSA]

Practical benefit?

minitower - $1050 for 3 GiB RAM (up to 8GiB), 2.4 GHz quad core, 1066 MHz bus, 400GB, 16x DL lightscribe superdrive, 7.1 audio with digital audio in/out, 19" LCD, integrated graphics with open x16 PCIe slot for upgrade, two open x1 PCIe slots, open 3.5" disk bay, open 5.25" DVD/disk bay, 2yr warranty ...

iMac - $1500 for 1 GiB RAM (up to 3GiB), 2.16 GHz dual core, 667 MHz bus, 250 GB, 8x DL superdrive, 20" LCD, ATI X1600 (not upgradeable), no expansion, 1yr warranty

This is more of a "why MiniTower instead of all-in-one" than a "why Conroe instead of Merom" answer....

BTW, if you'd stick an NTSC/ATSC tuner card in one of the empty PCIe slots, you'd have a Quad Kentsfield Mini-Tower/Home-Theatre-PC!

(full specs for HP A6152N) (link to full ad)

And there in plain sight is the reason why Apple has just 2-3% market share.

 

[Rustus Maximus]

And there in plain sight is the reason why Apple has just 2-3% market share.

Actually they have around a 6% share now.

 

[AidenShaw]

2% to 3% is correct for worldwide market share...

Actually they have around a 6% share now.

Mac Market Share Declines

"Apple's Macintosh share of the (worldwide) PC market fell to 2.4 percent during the December quarter based on preliminary data from IDC,"

The most recent MR story about market share reports from IDC didn't break Apple out - Apple was in the "others" category below Acer at 4.something%...

 

[AidenShaw]

Normal price for 2.4 GHz quad core is $930 !

Maybe I'll see you in line, I'm going to send one to my sister...

Didn't see you in line - got one at the San Jose (Brokaw) store.

By the way, the normal price for the 2.4 GHz quad-core 3 GiB Mini-Tower at Fry's is $929.99!

The sale deal amounted to bundling the 19" wide-screen LCD for only $70 more than the system price.

The Brokaw store has 9 more, Sunnyvale and Palo Alto are out, the Campbell store has 2. If you call ahead and ask about stock - tell them to "split the PLU". It's a Fry's bundle, and the PLU in the ad will show up as stock=0. If they "split" it, they'll see the counts for the system and for the monitor.

 

[AidenShaw]

Vista, to my knowledge, has not been optimized for multiple processors like the Mac.

Your knowledge is missing.

Vista is based on the Windows 2003 Server codebase that supports up to 64 CPU SMP machines (64 cores).

The XP and Vista systems are fine with quad and octo-core machines, unlike OSX 10.4.

Whether an individual application on any OS is multi-threaded to the point that it can scale beyond 2 to 4 to 8 or more cores is a completely separate question from whether the OS can support multiple cores.

I run an octo-core Vista x64 system with 16 GiB of RAM for my office desktop, and I often have 6 to 12 busy tasks or virtual machines running. To spread FUD based on ignorance about Windows is not the best thing to do when people are reading who can call you on it.

Why spend $999 for a HP when you can get by with half the processors for half the price at HP?

Good quip, but unfortunately based on pure fallacy.

 

[Multimedia]

I Went To Campbell Store & Couldn't Pull The Trigger

Didn't see you in line - got one at the San Jose (Brokaw) store.

By the way, the normal price for the 2.4 GHz quad-core 3 GiB Mini-Tower at Fry's is $929.99!

The sale deal amounted to bundling the 19" wide-screen LCD for only $70 more than the system price.

The Brokaw store has 9 more, Sunnyvale and Palo Alto are out, the Campbell store has 2. If you call ahead and ask about stock - tell them to "split the PLU". It's a Fry's bundle, and the PLU in the ad will show up as stock=0. If they "split" it, they'll see the counts for the system and for the monitor.

I went to Campbell and had everything loaded up in my cart for $1600 including an NVIDEA 8600 GTS for $150 & warranties. Then I chickened out and left the store with nothing. Couldn't do it Aiden.

I just got FCS2 and CS3 MC and I'm having enough problems installing CS3 MC to keep me busy until Tuesday.

 

[AidenShaw]

I went to Campbell and had everything loaded up in my cart for $1600 including an NVIDEA 8600 GTS for $150 & warranties. Then I chickened out and left the store with nothing. Couldn't do it Aiden.

I just got FCS2 and CS3 MC and I'm having enough problems installing CS3 MC to keep me busy until Tuesday.

Can we change your handle to "Runaway Bride"

 

[Rustus Maximus]

Mac Market Share Declines

"Apple's Macintosh share of the (worldwide) PC market fell to 2.4 percent during the December quarter based on preliminary data from IDC,"

That report is from January 2007, the one I cited from July 2007, your data is old. Also, your figure is worldwide market share. In the US Apple commands nealry 6%. A figure which is continually rising at the expense of Gateway and Dell among others. I imagine that trend will continue with the ongoing iPod and now iPhone halo effects along with the fact that OS X is a superior product.

As for why Apple's worldwide market share is where it is, I am sure there are numerous factors, economics being chief among them. Most of the rest of the world has to pay much more for an Apple than we in the US do as they do with many tech goods. But, and take this as you will, like it or not, the US market is what matters most this moment. If Apple's market share is increasing here, and it is, then that bodes well for the future of Apple's sales in both the US and abroad.

 

[AidenShaw]

That report is from January 2007, the one I cited from July 2007, your data is old.

Didn't I say that, that in the current report Apple has dropped into the "others" category world-wide?

As for why Apple's worldwide market share is where it is, I am sure there are numerous factors, economics being chief among them.

And is it not an example of "economics" that the $1000 HP system has higher CPU and bus frequencies, twice the number of cores, three times the RAM, nearly twice the disk space... compared to the $1500 iMac?

It sounds like you're agreeing with us - that US share is around 6%, worldwide share around 3%, and that the iMac does not look like a good value on performance for the money.

 

[Mozutaka]

Yay? I don't doubt that Apple will pop these in quickly, but honestly, the Mac Pro has fallen notably far behind in other areas (namely price) and they're surely losing business between now and an update. Same goes for the supposed value-priced iMac.

Is it really too much to ask for even slightly competitive prices? With Vista floundering, you'd think Apple would be doing all it can to switch people this year instead of playing with a phone and "one more thing: Safari for Windows". Boo.

They lose another customer if my G4 iMac dies between now a completely up-to-date Mac Pro...and a 8800 GTS for $500 extra doesn't count.

 

[maccompaq]

Vista is based on the Windows 2003 Server codebase that supports up to 64 CPU SMP machines (64 cores).

The XP and Vista systems are fine with quad and octo-core machines, unlike OSX 10.4.


AidenShaw, thanks for the correction about Vista.

My Compaq with AMD Athlon 64 at 2.41 Ghz and my cable Internet of 12 mbps runs as fast as anything I could ever imagine needing. I run PhotoShop on my Mac, and PhotoShop Elements 5.0 on my Compaq only as a hobby and am much satisfied with their performance. I do not play games on the computers. An honest question: what can I benefit from a faster processor or multicore?

 

[AidenShaw]

I run PhotoShop on my Mac, and PhotoShop Elements 5.0 on my Compaq only as a hobby and am much satisfied with their performance. I do not play games on the computers. An honest question: what can I benefit from a faster processor or multicore?

If you're not waiting for your current computer to finish tasks, a faster one won't help.

If, however, someday your photo collection may grow to the point where things are a bit sluggish when bringing up the thumbnail pages. Or you'll upgrade to a 10 mega-pixel digital SLR and decide to switch to RAW images instead of JPEGs. Or you'll get into home video or transcoding videos for archiving.

When the day comes that you getting bored waiting for the computer to finish a task - then you'll benefit from a faster one.

Newer computers typically have other improvements as well - support for more total system RAM, faster disks, faster networking, ....

 

[danielwsmithee]

And is it not an example of "economics" that the $1000 HP system has higher CPU and bus frequencies, twice the number of cores, three times the RAM, nearly twice the disk space... compared to the $1500 iMac?

This has always been the case with all Apple products when they get to the end of there refresh cycle. When they are first updated they are as good of deal or better then the competition by the end they are way overpriced. Currently the iMac is very stale! Hopefully the comparison after Tuesday will help the iMac a little more but I doubt the iMac will win if they stick with the mobile components.

When the iMac was last updated to the mobile Core Duo Yonah it made sense because the mobile Core Duo performed better then any available desktop chip from Intel (Pentium D). Then the Core 2 Duo Merom was a drop in replacement with no redesign. Hopefully now that they are redesigning they will be able to fit the desktop chips in.

Dual-Link DVI sounds great for the iMac but on the mini I would prefer to have two regular DVI ports then a single Dual Link DVI so you could drive 2 24" monitors.

 

[AidenShaw]

This has always been the case with all Apple products when they get to the end of there refresh cycle. When they are first updated they are as good of deal or better then the competition by the end they are way overpriced. Currently the iMac is very stale!

OK, except for the people who don't want an all-in-one in the first place.

Dual-Link DVI sounds great for the iMac but on the mini I would prefer to have two regular DVI ports then a single Dual Link DVI so you could drive 2 24" monitors.

Would you prefer a Mini over a much more capable, expandable, and cheaper mini-tower with a PCIe slot for BTO graphics?

 

[AidenShaw]

add the Apple tower option and equiv memory option

HP minitower - $1050 for 3 GiB RAM (up to 8GiB), 2.4 GHz quad core, 1066 MHz bus, 400GB, 16x DL lightscribe superdrive, 7.1 audio with digital audio in/out, 19" LCD, integrated graphics with open x16 PCIe slot for upgrade, two open x1 PCIe slots, open 3.5" disk bay, open 5.25" DVD/disk bay, 2yr warranty, 16.3x6.9x15.2 inches (1709 in³) ...

iMac - $1500 for 1 GiB RAM (up to 3GiB), 2.16 GHz dual core, 667 MHz bus, 250 GB, 8x DL superdrive, 20" LCD, ATI X1600 (not upgradeable), no expansion, 1yr warranty ($2299 with dual core 2.33 and 3 GiB)

MacPro - $2200 for 1 GiB RAM (up to 16Gib), 2.0 GHz quad core (dual dual), 1333 MHz bus, 250 GB, 16x DL superdrive, digital audio in/out, no LCD, 7300 GT 256 MiB, 3 open PCIe slots, 3 open 3.5" bays, 1 open 5.25" bay, 1 yr warranty, 20.1x8.1x18.7 inches (3045 in³), 42 lbs ($2999 with quad (dual-dual) 2.66 GHz and 3 GiB)

The second price on the Macs is when you add BTO options to come close to the CPU speed and memory of the $929 HP.

 

[maccompaq]

Virtual Memory

AidenShaw, you are one of the most informed people I have run into in a long time, so I have a question for you. I read somewhere that USB Flash Memory can be used with Vista as operating memory. I can see where it might be possible to use it as fast Virtual memory in place of the hard drive. But to use it as operating memory, I don't know. What do you know about it?

 

[AidenShaw]

AidenShaw, you are one of the most informed people I have run into in a long time, so I have a question for you. I read somewhere that USB Flash Memory can be used with Vista as operating memory. I can see where it might be possible to use it as fast Virtual memory in place of the hard drive. But to use it as operating memory, I don't know. What do you know about it?

You're right - the USB drive doesn't show up as more physical system RAM.

On Vista, a flash drive can be used as an additional layer of disk cache memory - the idea being that the flash can satisfy small random reads faster than the moving-head hard drive.

A common result of testing, though, is that the money is better spent on a bigger DIMM for the system RAM.

For more info, read this overview, and check out the links at the end:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReadyBoost