Flash: A serious debate vis-à-vis a popular tool.

[Platon]

@jive turkey & the rest

That is exactly my point! The availability of having an option to enable/disable Flash would be amazing. Instead of criticizing this thread and frowning on my posts, you ought to comprehend the requirements of an average consumer. I agree with you on the fact that having all these genial web technologies at our disposal would make the web a better place to browse, but until the time that Flash will be overtaken by the above standards, rethinking an inclusion of an option to access Flash on the iDevices does not seem an outrageous demand after all!

 

[CylonGlitch]

The availability of having an option to enable/disable Flash would be amazing.

Here is the problem with having it as an option. First, it is safe to assume that 90% of the people out there don't know, or don't really care what Flash is and where it comes from. Second, yes it sounds logical to have it as an option. But putting these two together means that 90% of the people who use iOS devices won't know what they are turning on when they turn it on. Thus people are going to turn it on and then have issues -- shortened battery life, heat, instabilities, etc. Who do you think they will blame? Will it be Adobe or will it be Apple? It will be Apple because these people don't know anything about this and thus will assume it is the phone. In turn this will be a black eye for APPLE not Adobe and cause their phone/pod/pad sales to decrease, and yes, THIS IS THEIR BOTTOM LINE. (Not the iTunes store) Apple is about making the experience GOOD for the consumer, not necessarily giving them every bell in whistle, but making what they do have easy and enjoyable. They did this in iOS by choosing to keep flash off. And obviously, it has worked.

 

[Platon]

@CylonGlitch

Thank you for your argument. If Apple designs its software so well, I am positively sure that they will be able to implement Flash correctly. All things aside, this is how I would implement it. Firstly, I would have it off by default and not within the reach of Settings in the iOS software. Now, if the user was to stumble across a website that needed Flash, then all he/she would need to do is just tap on the 'inaccessible' content and Flash would come to life. Simple as that! At the end of the user's session on that website or at the minute he/she closes Safari, Flash would be automatically deactivated leaving the user's hardware intact (i.e. no battery life shortening, no heat issues etc.).

To conclude, it is evident that there are countless of ways of implementing Flash efficiently in iOS. As I said before, this is not the case unfortunately. Apple and Adobe must have some business rivalry with each other, despite the fact that so many Adobe products are able to run in Mac OS X. The bottom line is that the inclusion of Flash might be somehow anti-competitive toward Apple, and the arguments that state that Flash simply sucks or there is no good way of implementing it in the mobile software are trivial.

 

[Platon]

Judging from the unanimous silence of my fellow opposers, I guess my final statement seems to be just.

To repeat myself once more, I am not in favor of any particular private web technology such as Flash. On the contrary, I am a fond supporter of open technologies of any kind, including the ones of the web. I am just an average consumer that would like a product to work completely.This affirmation is by no means limited to Apple's iDevices, but to products in general. This entire thread was originally meant to be interpreted from a consumer's viewpoint and not to be attacked by Flash opposers. I created this thread so I can share my opinion regarding this popular topic. I do not want you to agree with me, but to respect my outlook and maybe even suggest other ways of tackling the absence of Flash on the iDevices. Some of you did share my insight, but others, upon looking at the title, started to attack the discussion just because there was a reference of Flash. Is such behavior serious?

 

[Sonic]

It's very easy to say you don't need flash if your interests don't include gaming. But there are millions and millions of people around the world for whom flash is their only access to gaming, millions for whom it's a great hobby, and millions who would never buy a Mac if they valued their experience doing so... I think it's a shame that it's so badly supported.

It's a unique technology as far as web game creation goes (HTML5 has still not caught up yet), and even if it had no other use it would be a shame to have it shut out of OSX altogether. Molehill could be a great next step, especially with Unity integration (people will download it because it's still called Flash, whereas they won't get the Unity plugin.) I think Apple should be trying to encourage a better experience, instead of blocking it out.

 

[CylonGlitch]

I think Apple should be trying to encourage a better experience, instead of blocking it out.

But that's what they are trying to do; encourage developers to move to HTML5. If you continue to support Flash, you continue to accept mediocrity and thus there is little desire for developers to move away from it. In the long run, you end up with nothing advancing. Apple has always been leading the charge of dropping old technology; you either move forward with them, or get left behind.

The truth is, that although it was necessary at the time, Flash has outlived it's usefulness. It's time it went away. It will take time, a long time before it is completely phased out. HTML5 takes time to learn, how to implement things in it correctly and for development libraries to be written. But with the resounding success of iOS, the people have spoken, Flash is NOT important to them.

 

[BaldiMac]

Judging from the unanimous silence of my fellow opposers, I guess my final statement seems to be just.

That's not a valid assumption. You are making the same assumption that causes these threads to go in circles. You assume that Apple's primary problems with Flash are related to performance and stability. In addition, you don't actually address the specific performance and stability concerns that Apple expressed.

And then you assume that consumers want Flash. They don't. They want the content that is currently delivered through Flash. Since you are "a fond supporter of open technologies of any kind, including the ones of the web", you should be able to acknowledge that Apple's decision to not allow Flash on iOS devices has done more to push that content into open standards than anything else.

 

[Sonic]

But that's what they are trying to do; encourage developers to move to HTML5. If you continue to support Flash, you continue to accept mediocrity

And what I'm saying is that the current implementations of HTML5 and the frameworks / IDE's available (I'm a developer) are currently mediocre in comparison to Flash, with its vector editing / animation timeline for the visually inclined, which integrates with the other Adobe software any web developer would be using anyway, or Flash Builder to do everything in code, which is actually a great IDE, and the rich and mature set of libraries for getting great effects up on screen in a nice and simple way. It has its share of bugs, and poor performance on Mac (which could be improved if Apple stopped the animosity, and made it a priority to match PC performance which is great these days)... but most of all it doesn't really have an equal in terms of ease of making 2D web content, which is why it encourages a great artistic community about it.

The truth is, that although it was necessary at the time, Flash has outlived it's usefulness. It's time it went away

It has outlived its usefulness to you, and perhaps the people you know... But every person I know regularly enjoys Flash gaming, and has probably never heard of HTML5 gaming at this point... In most tests it still proves faster than current HTML-5 implementations anyway, and not all broswers even support it.

It's far from dead... It's not a floppy drive that really was redundant, or the optical ones or the new Macs.

 

[BaldiMac]

And what I'm saying is that the current implementations of HTML5 and the frameworks / IDE's available (I'm a developer) are currently mediocre in comparison to Flash, with its vector editing / animation timeline for the visually inclined, which integrates with the other Adobe software any web developer would be using anyway, or Flash Builder to do everything in code, which is actually a great IDE, and the rich and mature set of libraries for getting great effects up on screen in a nice and simple way. It has its share of bugs, and poor performance on Mac (which could be improved if Apple stopped the animosity, and made it a priority to match PC performance which is great these days)... but most of all it doesn't really have an equal in terms of ease of making 2D web content, which is why it encourages a great artistic community about it.



It has outlived its usefulness to you, and perhaps the people you know... But every person I know regularly enjoys Flash gaming, and has probably never heard of HTML5 gaming at this point... In most tests it still proves faster than current HTML-5 implementations anyway, and not all broswers even support it.

It's far from dead... It's not a floppy drive that really was redundant, or the optical ones or the new Macs.

Flash and HTML5 are not the only two choices.

(And why would Apple need to make it a priority to improve Flash Player performance? Isn't that Adobe's job?)

 

[JKK photography]

I think that Apple is against Flash because it does lower their products' performance in multiple ways.

Slowing down a computer is one way, though I'd argue that it is really less of an issue with today's Core i7s (even my "lowly" core 2 duo MBP). However, what Ars Technica found with the Macbook Air (late-2010 model) was ridiculous. A 33% reduction in battery life, on account of nothing more than flash based ads? How is that anything but pathetic?

Now, keep in mind that that was the Macbook Air in the eleven inch configuration. What other device has (barring different processor architectures/OS'es/other relatively minor differences) similar specifications? The iPad.

So does Apple want the iPad to have, say, eight hours of battery life instead of ten hours (and in some cases more)?

I don't actually use an iPhone. I have an Android device (DROID Incredible, if you must know). Running Flash on it is fantastic, if you like your hand being burnt, laggy performance everywhere else in the OS, and browser crashes.

Also, it isn't just Apple fighting against Flash (and, by extension, Adobe). Windows Phone 7 (made my Microsoft - you know, Adobe + Microsoft is only slightly below Wintel?) does not support Flash. Google is even trying to get around Adobe. Youtube works fine without Flash, because all videos are converted to HTML5 compliancy. They are even trying to develop a direct alternative, and pushing it with their Chrome browser.

I don't think that anyone can claim that HTML5 is superior to Flash, or that it offers the same amount of flexibility as Adobe's product. But that's a present tense statement; the technology world is always moving forward. How video (and animation) on the web has been somewhat immobile for a long time. Why shouldn't a corporate entity try to push what they believe to be a superior product?

 

[Starhorsepax]

And what I'm saying is that the current implementations of HTML5 and the frameworks / IDE's available (I'm a developer) are currently mediocre in comparison to Flash, with its vector editing / animation timeline for the visually inclined, which integrates with the other Adobe software any web developer would be using anyway, or Flash Builder to do everything in code, which is actually a great IDE, and the rich and mature set of libraries for getting great effects up on screen in a nice and simple way. It has its share of bugs, and poor performance on Mac (which could be improved if Apple stopped the animosity, and made it a priority to match PC performance which is great these days)... but most of all it doesn't really have an equal in terms of ease of making 2D web content, which is why it encourages a great artistic community about it.



It has outlived its usefulness to you, and perhaps the people you know... But every person I know regularly enjoys Flash gaming, and has probably never heard of HTML5 gaming at this point... In most tests it still proves faster than current HTML-5 implementations anyway, and not all broswers even support it.

It's far from dead... It's not a floppy drive that really was redundant, or the optical ones or the new Macs.

I'm just getting into web design and agree with this.

I've just been browsing this thread and cringing. Yes, my little macbook runs absurdly hot and hangs and it does it quite a bit with Flash. But like it or not, many sites I need to go on use it , and I do like a flash game and a bit of video now and then. Personally I plan to learn some although I mainly want to do a simple game for my website or how to edit a few videos.

Telling people to just change all their website designs to exclude flash isn't going to happen. It takes time for people to learn new methods, like switching from FLASH to HTML 5. You don't just 'download into your brain'. HTML 5 standards are not set yet anyway.
And redesigning a website is neither easy or free. There is no reason to think the people in charge of every business will care if Mac users can't use their flash based sites. I remember going to fill out a job application and being unable to do it because it demanded Internet Explorer. Shows how much they care about any but the majority player doesn't it? Or maybe it shows their ignorance.


My worst fear is that before I can afford a new mac they'll refuse to allow flash on any Mac OS. I love my mac. In fact, the first sign my old imacs useful days were numbered were when every other site I went on regularly wanted it to update it's flash and it couldn't.

So am I going to have to turn to Windows and Microsoft, much as I dislike PCs? Abandon my beloved Mac because they literally forced me - a web and graphic designer - to work on something else? It'll break my heart.

I don't for a minute think this is about the consumer benefits. I think it's about the heads of these big companies having egos so large they don't fit in the same room together. Sometimes, you can tell by the price tags.
Adobe: over $500 bucks for an upgrade? Everyone else may charge $100 for their software, and upgrades may even be free. Apple: you want $90 bucks for me to replace a frayed POWER CORD? How do I know the new one won't fray at the exact same spot? Your computers are worth more, yes but that is one overpriced power cord! I'm sorry but that is greed.

Easy for those who in charge of these companies and have the jobs and money coming in to demand everyone else change all those websites whether they can afford to or not. Not only do they not to pay for it, they are the ones raking in the dough. Yes, legally they can do it. Yes, it's not a bad thing to encourage movement to newer stuff. That doesn't mean they should force it on people. It's making them look quite petty. (And I'm not singling out Apple here. Microsoft does it, Adobe does it, Google does it....the bigger they get the worse they seem to get.)

The worse thing is.....I love apple. I love macs. I would not get so upset if I didn't care about what it does to their image, and if I find the idea of being FORCED by APPLE to use a PC disheartening. It's as bad as those Windows users telling us Mac people telling us to 'get a PC' because they only want to code for internet explorer. (Never mind that there are a sizable number of other browsers, most of which are largely compatible. IE is the odd ball out.)


I wish we should dump the people in charge of these companies on a desert island and tell them we won't let them off until they write code that will get along.

 

[Platon]

@BaldiMac

Do you not know already that there are 2 separate pages in this thread? Well, if you did not, then I recommend you to check the first one out as it pretty much addresses your question entirely. People want functionality, not technicalities. I would suggest you to read the post below you by Sonic.

@JKK photography

Flash functionality on mobile devices has progressed a long time since April of 2010 when the HTC Droid Incredible was released. I do agree with you, though, on the fact that Flash usage affects a device negatively in terms of excess heat generation and general system instability, but it is there and it works! Personally, I do not use Flash on every website I visit, but when I want to access a webpage that includes Flash content I would have appreciated its presence immensely.