For those who dual boot OS X and OS 9

MacFoxG4

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Nov 22, 2019
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Which one do you use more?

I have both Leopard and 9.2.2 on my Sawtooth and I use Leopard more. I have other Macs running classic Mac OS, but my Sawtooth is the only Mac I have that can also run Leopard. I think that's why I use Leopard more than 9 on my Sawtooth, that and Leopard is much better at the internet than 9 is.
 

TheShortTimer

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Mar 27, 2017
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I have Tiger, Panther and 9.2.2 on my Sawtooth and out of the three, Tiger is used the most. OS 9 has never really felt intuitive for me and beyond situations where I need to run older games, I don't use it that often and much prefer OS X.
 

Project Alice

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I have Tiger, Panther and 9.2.2 on my Sawtooth and out of the three, Tiger is used the most. OS 9 has never really felt intuitive for me and beyond situations where I need to run older games, I don't use it that often and much prefer OS X.
Likewise. I never really got the OS 9 fad. I even run Tiger on my Beige G3. Windows 2000 is my go-to "Retro OS". I feel the same way about Windows 98 as I do Mac OS 9 (I avoid it as much as I can).
I don't personally consider Mac OS X 10.4 or 10.5 "retro". The only reason it is outdated is because apple chose to stop updating it. Leopard is a pretty modern OS as far as features and usability go. And OS X is perfect for running any older game that doesn't require classic.
Which one do you use more?

I have both Leopard and 9.2.2 on my Sawtooth and I use Leopard more. I have other Macs running classic Mac OS, but my Sawtooth is the only Mac I have that can also run Leopard. I think that's why I use Leopard more than 9 on my Sawtooth, that and Leopard is much better at the internet than 9 is.
I prefer Leopard, and I run Leopard on literally everything that is capable of running it. Including my B&W G4 and Pismo G4.
 

repairedCheese

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Jan 13, 2020
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I never really spent much time in OS 9. I didn't have access to hardware capable of it, and when I really got deep into my childhood obsession with the Mac OS, Basilisk II was the only real way to get experience on my Windows computers. Sure, 7.6 is better supported, but 7.5 was offered freely by Apple at the time, so that's what I used with that particular emulator.

I would later go on to get PPC Macs to finally fulfill what I wanted when I was young, but soon enough, I realized there wasn't really one perfect Mac.

As much as I love classic games, if I can make the Mac do modern things, I'll do that as much as possible, which means I tend to leave my eMac running 10.4 far more than 9. Lately it's been running 10.5, since I managed to get VLC 2 to play my music playlists originally set up in Winamp, of all things.
I don't personally consider Mac OS X 10.4 or 10.5 "retro". The only reason it is outdated is because apple chose to stop updating it. Leopard is a pretty modern OS as far as features and usability go. And OS X is perfect for running any older game that doesn't require classic.
Considering that Tiger came out in 2005, Leopard came out in 2007, and Windows Vista came out in 2006, I think it's very hard to make the argument that those versions of the Mac OS are actually retro. Certainly, I can't imagine anyone calling Windows Vista of all things, retro. Very specifically, it laid the foundation for Windows 7, and that version only just left main line support. Leopard feels quite similar to me, maybe even moreso.
 
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Slix

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I mainly only use 9 for games and old silly applications, so when I go to play old Mac games, I generally am in Mac OS 9, but that's only because probably 90% of my games are native to 9. For general usage though, Mac OS X definitely takes the crown there. It's certainly possible to do file sharing and music playback and web browsing on 9, but it's far easier and more robust using OS X for that stuff.
 
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TheShortTimer

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Likewise. I never really got the OS 9 fad. I even run Tiger on my Beige G3. Windows 2000 is my go-to "Retro OS". I feel the same way about Windows 98 as I do Mac OS 9 (I avoid it as much as I can).
I don't personally consider Mac OS X 10.4 or 10.5 "retro". The only reason it is outdated is because apple chose to stop updating it. Leopard is a pretty modern OS as far as features and usability go. And OS X is perfect for running any older game that doesn't require classic.
I'm able to carry out numerous productivity tasks and other serious and creative work under Tiger and its superseded status has presented very few hindrances - if any. It doesn't stop me from turning on my 1999 Sawtooth and getting on with word processing, editing audio, creating collages, capturing DV video, burning game discs to play on my consoles etc.... Which is why it's irritating to see recent comments on the LEM FB group where a Powerbook G4 was dismissed as only being fit to be "a toy" and High Sierra was described as the absolute minimum Mac OS version that anyone should be using.
 

bobesch

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I like Dual-Boot as "mandatory" wherever it's possible.
(My bread&butter Mac is an early 2008 15"MBP4,1 A1260 to get my job done and to stream video.)
For everything else it doesn't matter to me, which hardware or system.
I use PPC/Leopard very often, because of faster WebKit4Leopard browser, some software, that require Leopard, and the virtual desktops.
I like Tiger, because it's faster, and offers Classic-support and because of TFF and MS-Office2004 & OpenDocConverter.
And I like os9, because it has more options, than I ever thought, such an old system could offer.
So beyond job-demands it's a matter of mood and task that decides about system and hardware.
 

bunnspecial

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Even though most of my OS 9 computers have OS X installed, I tend to optimize the hardware for one or the other. That's particularly true in GPU selection.

If I want to run OS 9 only on a system, I will usually stick the best OS 9 compatible GPU I can in it. That often means a Radeon 9200 for PCI systems, and a Geforce 4Ti(although I don't have but a couple of those) for towers where it's possible. These do okay in OS X, but in general I'd rather have a low end CI capable card like a Geforce 5200 than a even a good non-CI card.

Of course, this isn't a consideration so much in laptops, but I tend to run OS 9 on whatever laptops are capable of it, and save my OS X use for laptops that really do it well like the late G4 PowerBooks.
 

Project Alice

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I'm able to carry out numerous productivity tasks and other serious and creative work under Tiger and its superseded status has presented very few hindrances - if any. It doesn't stop me from turning on my 1999 Sawtooth and getting on with word processing, editing audio, creating collages, capturing DV video, burning game discs to play on my consoles etc.... Which is why it's irritating to see recent comments on the LEM FB group where a Powerbook G4 was dismissed as only being fit to be "a toy" and High Sierra was described as the absolute minimum Mac OS version that anyone should be using.
I didn't see that comment on there... If I find it I will be telling them exactly why they're wrong.
That is even dumber now that yearly OS upgrades exists (which I'm highly against, and I think is a good 85% of why Mac OS is a shadow of what it used to be - yearly upgrades SUCK). An OS should be mainline support for 5 years minimum like it used to be. Now we get 3 years out of an OS, and "updates" that are just different themes and beta features added to the same OS with a version number change. 10.10 is exactly like HS in almost every way. I can't even tell you the difference between 10.12 and 10.13. I used both of those and aside from a different wallpaper I can't figure it out. 10.13 is like 10.12.7.
 

z970mp

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Which is why it's irritating to see recent comments on the LEM FB group where a Powerbook G4 was dismissed as only being fit to be "a toy" and High Sierra was described as the absolute minimum Mac OS version that anyone should be using.
"Absolute minimum macOS version that anyone should be using" decreed by who? Apple? In other words the profiteers?

And if you challenge their conclusions, they'll always retort back "but it's too old!" without providing any freely thinking reason based in logic and common sense, let alone experience.

Trendy consumerist types such as those infuriate me, to say the least. Yet we wonder why western civilization has the e-waste problem it does, taking up the space, energy, and effort it requires to properly deal with.

This is one of the goals foxPEP sets out to accomplish. Even if it only ends up swaying five people in total to keep their "obsolete" machines instead of throwing them out, at least it would have done something to fight this absolute flippancy and disregard of technological capability plaguing us today.
 

Project Alice

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"Absolute minimum macOS version that anyone should be using" decreed by who? Apple? In other words the profiteers?

And if you challenge their conclusions, they'll always retort back "but it's too old!" without providing any freely thinking reason based in logic and common sense, let alone experience.

Trendy consumerist types such as those infuriate me, to say the least. Yet we wonder why western civilization has the e-waste problem it does, taking up the space, energy, and effort it requires to properly deal with.

This is one of the goals foxPEP sets out to accomplish. Even if it only ends up swaying five people in total to keep their "obsolete" machines instead of throwing them out, at least it would have done something to fight this absolute flippancy and disregard of technological capability plaguing us today.
I have a LOT of computers. A crap load of PPC macs.. But I have some PCs too. Newer, by my standards (circa 2013). Two of those include an Alienware laptop, and a Sony Vaio with i7s. I choose to use one of my PowerBook G4s as my daily portable. I don't actually need a laptop usually more than a couple times a month, but when I do I always find myself using my 15" 1.5Ghz AlBook.
 

Dronecatcher

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Which is why it's irritating to see recent comments on the LEM FB group where a Powerbook G4 was dismissed as only being fit to be "a toy" and High Sierra was described as the absolute minimum Mac OS version that anyone should be using.
Browsing through there makes my brain hurt - there's a few users conversant with PPC but mostly it's folk who snort with derision at anything pre 2013.
Most PPC groups outside of this one are just hipster show and tell ego massage parlours.
 

Project Alice

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Browsing through there makes my brain hurt - there's a few users conversant with PPC but mostly it's folk who snort with derision at anything pre 2013.
Most PPC groups outside of this one are just hipster show and tell ego massage parlours.
The only good one I can think of is the PPC gaming lounge. The other smaller ones are people who get a single PPC Mac and think it can do more than it can, with the same two active posters.
 

Amethyst1

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2015
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Browsing through there makes my brain hurt - there's a few users conversant with PPC but mostly it's folk who snort with derision at anything pre 2013.
Most PPC groups outside of this one are just hipster show and tell ego massage parlours.
There's a very simple solution that I've been using for years - just ignore them. Saves a lot of time and nerves. :)
- - Post merged: - -

Which one do you use more?
Depends on what I want to do. If it's something like running "classic" applications and games or just seeing a PPC Mac fly, I use Nine. If it's something else, Tiger is my go-to OS, with Leopard coming in second, followed by Jaguar, Puma and Panther in roughly that order of frequency.
- - Post merged: - -

Windows 2000 is my go-to "Retro OS".
Same here - it combines a solid foundation with modern features and a no-nonsense, get-things-done UI and, most importantly, doesn't try to be as annoyingly newbie-friendly as XP.
- - Post merged: - -

I don't personally consider Mac OS X 10.4 or 10.5 "retro".
Personally, I consider Cheetah, Puma and Jaguar to be "vintage" (I dislike the other word 'cause it's one of these overhyped buzzwords).
 
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Adamscomputerrepair

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Aug 9, 2015
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For internet, photoshop, and the like, I use Tiger/Leopard. For writing, I love office 2001 and even wrote a book on it. I use OS9 because for me it’s distraction free.
 
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TheShortTimer

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"Absolute minimum macOS version that anyone should be using" decreed by who? Apple? In other words the profiteers?

And if you challenge their conclusions, they'll always retort back "but it's too old!" without providing any freely thinking reason based in logic and common sense, let alone experience.

Trendy consumerist types such as those infuriate me, to say the least. Yet we wonder why western civilization has the e-waste problem it does, taking up the space, energy, and effort it requires to properly deal with.
Quite so. Vance Packard's warnings from 60 years ago are even more relevant and pressing today. Those trendy consumerist types don't realise that they're actively doing the bidding (and for free!) on behalf of the profiteers.

I came across this website in 2003/2004 and the brilliantly written home page had a profound impact on my awareness about these issues:

A software company's greatest fear -- those who resist upgrading. Why do software companies cling so tightly to the copyrights of their older versions -- back to the early 1980's and beyond -- and pursue so vehemently those who infringe upon the copyrights of this old, "obsolete" software? Many of these older programs, especially Windows 3.1x and Windows 95/98 versions, have enough features that, if you have one, you may not feel the need to buy the newest version. Software companies translate this as lost sales which they further translate as lost revenue. Multiply that by millions of people on the Internet and potentially millions more off-line and you see their concern.

Why do you think software and hardware computer companies keep inventing ways to force obsolescence onto computer users? If the newest computers could still run the oldest programs, how many people would continue to use their same versions of software? A lot more than these companies are willing to allow, at any (R&D;) cost.
This is one of the goals foxPEP sets out to accomplish. Even if it only ends up swaying five people in total to keep their "obsolete" machines instead of throwing them out, at least it would have done something to fight this absolute flippancy and disregard of technological capability plaguing us today.
I for one, am extremely grateful for these efforts. Unless a machine develops irreparable faults, I'd never throw it out but the projects that have been produced and shared within this group, entirely for free, have enabled me to push my older tech beyond their design spec and put them to use in unexpected areas.

Browsing through there makes my brain hurt - there's a few users conversant with PPC but mostly it's folk who snort with derision at anything pre 2013.
Most PPC groups outside of this one are just hipster show and tell ego massage parlours.
That's why I love this place!

It's a refuge from that environment and an invaluable resource. :)

There's a very simple solution that I've been using for years - just ignore them. Saves a lot of time and nerves. :)
Yes and personally I've drastically scaled down my presence on there. However that atmosphere is problematic for members who arrive seeking information about how to get the best out of their PPC or the older range of Intel machines, only to be misinformed that they're "useless" (as I've seen endlessly applied to the PM G5) or "a toy" or should be used to prop up a wonky table leg - which I saw volunteered as semi-joking advice a few days ago.
 

z970mp

macrumors 68030
Jun 2, 2017
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Quite so. Vance Packard's warnings from 60 years ago are even more relevant and pressing today. Those trendy consumerist types don't realise that they're actively doing the bidding (and for free!) on behalf of the profiteers.
Meanwhile, said types won't ever quit screeching for the terrible evils of the very economic system that gives them their free individual will and choice to be trendy consumerist types doing said profiteers' bidding ...

I will definitely need to get hold of that book in some fashion or another. Seems to be a further enlightening read.

I appreciate that referral. Thank you.
 
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repairedCheese

macrumors regular
Jan 13, 2020
165
165
I'm able to carry out numerous productivity tasks and other serious and creative work under Tiger and its superseded status has presented very few hindrances - if any. It doesn't stop me from turning on my 1999 Sawtooth and getting on with word processing, editing audio, creating collages, capturing DV video, burning game discs to play on my consoles etc.... Which is why it's irritating to see recent comments on the LEM FB group where a Powerbook G4 was dismissed as only being fit to be "a toy" and High Sierra was described as the absolute minimum Mac OS version that anyone should be using.
I didn't see that comment on there... If I find it I will be telling them exactly why they're wrong.
That is even dumber now that yearly OS upgrades exists (which I'm highly against, and I think is a good 85% of why Mac OS is a shadow of what it used to be - yearly upgrades SUCK). An OS should be mainline support for 5 years minimum like it used to be. Now we get 3 years out of an OS, and "updates" that are just different themes and beta features added to the same OS with a version number change. 10.10 is exactly like HS in almost every way. I can't even tell you the difference between 10.12 and 10.13. I used both of those and aside from a different wallpaper I can't figure it out. 10.13 is like 10.12.7.
"Absolute minimum macOS version that anyone should be using" decreed by who? Apple? In other words the profiteers?

And if you challenge their conclusions, they'll always retort back "but it's too old!" without providing any freely thinking reason based in logic and common sense, let alone experience.

Trendy consumerist types such as those infuriate me, to say the least. Yet we wonder why western civilization has the e-waste problem it does, taking up the space, energy, and effort it requires to properly deal with.

This is one of the goals foxPEP sets out to accomplish. Even if it only ends up swaying five people in total to keep their "obsolete" machines instead of throwing them out, at least it would have done something to fight this absolute flippancy and disregard of technological capability plaguing us today.
All my life, I have seen the same message from Apple. It's never mattered who was in charge, it was true when Steven Jobs was out, it was true when he came back, and it's true now, and that message is that 'you will consume and produce media our way, using only the latest offerings we have." That attitude has extended into every aspect of their hardware, often the software would be a bit of an afterthought. Apple has always been a hardware company first, after all.

And it was almost acceptable back when Macs were PowerPC, completely custom made things that even needed customized cards just to be able to use the same hardware as everything from the x86 world.

Then they went x86. In the last 5 years, Intel hit a wall trying to make their 10 nm chips, and they keep on failing to achieve their roadmap. That has effectively led even a 7 year old computer to be extremely capable, and a 10 year old one to be more than usable if you're not looking to play anything more than indie games or browse the web.

These people who parrot the marketing rarely seem to understand what their hardware can actually do, nor do they grasp why older hardware could even be desirable. All they know is what Apple told them. They're thinking different, just like everyone else.

This is why I'm not a Mac person. Heck, my newest is a PowerMac G5. And if I want something newer, I'll stick another ssd into my 2011 Dell and make it into one, the instructions are very clear about what I need to do. It even already has firewire. Being around here makes me want to try that project out quite a bit.
 

AphoticD

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Feb 17, 2017
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mostly it's folk who snort with derision at anything pre 2013.
I spent 6 months last year working for an Apple authorized service provider and this way of thinking was shared among staff and management, entirely handed down from Apple official through constant sales and “Genius” type training programs.

Staff must continually remain up to date with Apple sales training doing quizzes (and earning points) on how to push new hardware onto the next customer to walk through the door.

Apple have perfected the art of sales/manipulation. They have refined the language to “align with the customer” selling the advantages they will gain in replacing their old hardware for new.

Any customer presenting a 7 year plus Mac would be advised in Apple speak; “As it seems, your computer is no longer supported by Apple and is now considered vintage. The good news is we can offer you an out of warranty repair service. Would you like us to inspect the computer to quote for repair?”

Once the customer pays a non refundable $99 inspection fee and waits a few days (yes, days); “Yes sir, your computer is repairable. Our diagnosis reveals you will require a replacement logic board at a cost of $800 plus labour. Due to the cost of repair, it is our recommendation you purchase a new Mac.”

“The new MacBook Air starts at only $999, not much more than the cost of repairing your old Mac. And compared to your old Mac, there are major advancements in technology found in this new model. Just look at how thin and light it is! So much better for traveling than that bulky old Mac of yours. The battery life now allows up to 18 hours of operation. This new computer will change your life!”

Customers often had a laugh when they were told their Mac was “vintage” or “obsolete”, quickly followed by that look of self doubt (“Really? I fell that far behind?”). The psychology behind this drives a person to feel they need to PROVE they can “keep up” and stay relevant by buying (into) a new hardware purchase.

It is this old-world marketing tactic. The “Fear of missing out” that I hope to see come to a grinding halt someday soon...

Yes, I’ve become cynical and unlikely to buy new again. My inner Apple fan-boy remains conflicted!

My daily driver at work (a non-Apple serving job now) may be a 2018 MBP, but my everyday machines at home, which are still very capable of producing income are generally 2008 and older - My primary production Macs are a MacPro3,1, my old faithful MacBook5,1 a DC G5 and a PBG4 12-inch.

I then have a sea of other Macs that I tinker with for my own enjoyment dating from 1997 (PB1400) to 2011 (MBP). :apple:
 

z970mp

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and a 10 year old one to be more than usable if you're not looking to play anything more than indie games or browse the web.
I'd daresay it's much more capable than that, as far as 10 year old hardware go ...

Of course, that all depends on what the reference hardware is. In all likelihood, you're going to have a smoother time with 2020's digital landscape + professional applications in a 2007, 2008 Mac Pro than you might in a 2009 or 2010 MacBook.

All they know is what Apple told them. They're thinking different, just like everyone else.
Brilliant quote, except it's wrong in the current Apple landscape.

Apple quit the Think Different campaign almost 20 years ago (to my knowledge), and I'd say somewhere around 5 years ago stopped thinking any differently in practice than the competition, or at least just continued on their carved path, never continuing to think differently, even from their own established differing thought processes.

Think Different used to really mean something. It meant to do your whole digital lifestyle and workflow differently from the majority with OS X, and it meant to do your computing differently from very nearly everybody else with PowerPC. Well, they stopped doing their computing any differently in 2006, and then they stopped making good, easy to understand software that "just works" somewhere around the mid 2010's.

Not to mention then did a 180 by at that point starting to take anti-consumer and non-industry standard actions to actively spite their increasingly complaining userbase. Extra special screws, glued parts, soldered components, disallowed third-party parts, removal of ftp / telnet, OpenGL libraries, etc. ... all of these and more became standard in the latter half of the last decade. And their recent movements taken with the iPhone alone is a whole other can of worms.

Sad reality, and it falls onto the faithful consumer as to what Apple's fate shall be. And that result remains to be seen.

"Think Different (just not from us.)"

@AphoticD Great story. Outright proves what many of us have always suspected, with very good reason.

I take it you couldn't continue to put up with that kind of psychological manipulation and customer exploitation for very long?
 
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MacFoxG4

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Original poster
Nov 22, 2019
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Lot of good responses here.

I like using my G4 whenever I can. I can't always use it because some of the software I need to use for college needs a modern x86 machine. For those pieces of software, I use a Lenovo Ideapad running Windows 10. I'm not a big fan of Windows 10, but I use it when I have to, and Apple's decisions regarding upgradability have put me off of buying modern Macs. I think that's why I like older Macs more and more, I find them more satisfying to use.
 

AphoticD

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Feb 17, 2017
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@AphoticD Great story. Outright proves what many of us have always suspected, with very good reason.

I take it you couldn't continue to put up with that kind of psychological manipulation for very long?
I could feel my soul being crushed each day. The funny thing is I had done the same kind of work many years before (with top marks for sales) but only in round 2 could I see right through it!

The sad thing is most people working under the “spell” of big corporates truly believe and justify the BS! It’s no different to organized religion, but we don’t need to go there :D
 

RogerWilco6502

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Jan 12, 2019
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As of now, my Power Mac G4 Digital Audio is the only Mac of mine that dual boots OS 9 and OS X. I have the OS 9 partition hidden from the OS X partition (which runs Tiger) to prevent any problems between them. I use Tiger more for just about everything because the other Macs I use regularly don't like talking to OS 9 over the network and I use my Power Mac as a file server. I will boot into OS 9 on occasion because I do prefer it over OS X. I primarily use OS 9 for gaming (an ATI Rage 128 Pro won't let you run many OS X games) and also for making greeting cards in The Print Shop Deluxe. I also use OS 9 for writing when I can, due to the lack of distractions.

I would like to start using OS 9 more soon, as I absolutely love the way it works and perfect (for me) balance between limitation and functionality. :)
 
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