[Forked] iPhone and e61: phones vs. multi-function devices

[72930]

ModNote™: The first eight posts of this thread were moved to this new thread from here in order to allow this conversation to continue without disrupting that thread, with which this is at best peripherally related. Thanks for your understanding! --mkrishnan

Why not just get an iPhone instead of hoping Apple makes a mic for it(they won't why would the risk iPhone sales). Get an iPhone, simple....

I may do, but only when the iPhone goes 32GB, and that may not be in the next update unfortunately.

 

[touchyphone]

I may do, but only when the iPhone goes 32GB, and that may not be in the next update unfortunately.

Is 32GB the real deal breaker for you? 16gb isn't enough, I know people want storage, and I am in no way trying to be rude, so dont take it that way, but it is still a phone, do you really need 32gb worth of stuff on your phone?

 

[PowerFullMac]

Is 32GB the real deal breaker for you? 16gb isn't enough, I know people want storage, and I am in no way trying to be rude, so dont take it that way, but it is still a phone, do you really need 32gb worth of stuff on your phone?

It depends if he wants to use his phone as a iPod, too, as some people want a lot of media on their iPod, and therefore need more space.

 

[Niiro13]

When are you people going to realize IT IS NOT JUST A PHONE??? It is an iPod aka lots of storage wanted, it is the worlds first all in one mobile computing and internet device with 3rd party apps aka even more storage wanted. The more the merrier, end of story!

The largest jailbreak app so far is like 5 MB (package...yes, if you use PSX emulator, your ROMs are like 400 MB)...even the books are only like 2-3 MB

And last I checked, every phone has apps for it...not as sophisticated as the iPhone, but apps.

All smart phones have internet (real or mobile is irrelevant to space).

Technically the iPhone isn't supposed to replace the iPod...otherwise why wouldn't they just make a 32 GB now? They can.

So the only thing the iPhone has over the other phones is the apps that are coming...and so far I doubt the 18 levels of Spore was even that large...probably 10 MB.

 

[lesouvage]

When are you people going to realize IT IS NOT JUST A PHONE??? It is an iPod aka lots of storage wanted, it is the worlds first all in one mobile computing and internet device with 3rd party apps aka even more storage wanted. The more the merrier, end of story!

With all respect but apple as the first all in one computing device is not true. Apple came with a new and very innovative and completely new user interface and it is great and set the standard for all phones to come in the coming time. But from a technical perspective it is not innovative or new or adding options to a phone that weren't available yet.

I have a Nokia E61 with a louzy userinterface but with all the apps you can dream of available (music player, internet radio, ssh client, opera browser, irc client, agenda, todo list, terminal, IM client, e-mail client, viewer for most common formats, full bluetooth support and not the crippled kind available on an iPhone, SIP stack integrated into the operating system, sending sms messages to a choosen list of phone numbers, umts support etc. etc.)

If you don't unlock your iPhone you have a great designed piece of hardware with a revolutionaire user interface and a handfull of nice apps. Unlocking it and adding all the great apps available makes it special. Yes, then you need storage, to save the videopodcasts, directly downloaded from the internet, or the YouTube movies saved with MXTube.

 

[MacFly123]

With all respect but apple as the first all in one computing device is not true. Apple came with a new and very innovative and completely new user interface and it is great and set the standard for all phones to come in the coming time. But from a technical perspective it is not innovative or new or adding options to a phone that weren't available yet.

I have a Nokia E61 with a louzy userinterface but with all the apps you can dream of available (music player, internet radio, ssh client, opera browser, irc client, agenda, todo list, terminal, IM client, e-mail client, viewer for most common formats, full bluetooth support and not the crippled kind available on an iPhone, SIP stack integrated into the operating system, sending sms messages to a choosen list of phone numbers, umts support etc. etc.)

If you don't unlock your iPhone you have a great designed piece of hardware with a revolutionaire user interface and a handfull of nice apps. Unlocking it and adding all the great apps available makes it special. Yes, then you need storage, to save the videopodcasts, directly downloaded from the internet, or the YouTube movies saved with MXTube.

And how much did your Nokia E61 revolutionize the mobile phone industry lol? These are the words you need to ponder... IMPLEMENTATION & USER EXPERIENCE! That is why pretty much EVERYONE knows what an iPhone is but if you say to them Nokia E61 they would look at you like a deer in headlights!

The largest jailbreak app so far is like 5 MB (package...yes, if you use PSX emulator, your ROMs are like 400 MB)...even the books are only like 2-3 MB

And last I checked, every phone has apps for it...not as sophisticated as the iPhone, but apps.

All smart phones have internet (real or mobile is irrelevant to space).

Technically the iPhone isn't supposed to replace the iPod...otherwise why wouldn't they just make a 32 GB now? They can.

So the only thing the iPhone has over the other phones is the apps that are coming...and so far I doubt the 18 levels of Spore was even that large...probably 10 MB.

All I can say is you are like a horse with blinders on! Huge lack of ability to see the future! Refer to the my post above this. They will make a 32GB soon, and it wont stop there trust me. They don't do it right now because of cost and a segmented product progress strategy. If they don't do it in June you will see it before Christmas.

It boggles my mind how people don't realize the significance of Apple's ability to create an amazing user experience. Think really hard about multi-touch and graphical user interfaces and if you take those blinders off you just might be able to answer your own questions!

 

[lesouvage]

And how much did your Nokia E61 revolutionize the mobile phone industry lol? These are the words you need to ponder... IMPLEMENTATION & USER EXPERIENCE! That is why pretty much EVERYONE knows what an iPhone is but if you say to them Nokia E61 they would look at you like a deer in headlights!


quote
it is the worlds first all in one mobile computing and internet device with 3rd party apps aka even more storage wanted.

Above is your statement and that was what triggered me to write a reaction. It is simply not true that the iPhone is the first all in one phone. I agree with you about the user experience and that was already in my reaction: the iPhone is very revolutionaire with the user interface and that is the innovative aspect about the iPhone.

The Nokia E serie (e60, e61 and e70) will be in the phone history books as the first hybride voip enabled mobile phones on the market. Not a big seller because the mobile telco's did everything to protect their profitable mobile phone traffic but for the inside crowd of the voip industry a "must to have". It has been and it still is a very hot phone that gives a glimps of the future.
- just one phone for different numbers (home, work, wife, girlfriend)
- the option to link a number to the actual location (work phone only at work as part of the communciation solution, home phone at home)
- the option for sip providers to offer unified communication services
- providers charging flat rates for the service or costs per minute for long distance calls 10 times cheaper then what the mobile telco's are charging.

The real revolution going on is not in a user interface or in a materialized and smart marketing concept but in the proliferation of sip enabled telephony and other services to mobile devices that offers the user the freedom to avoid the high per minute prices the mobile telco's are charging now. The real revolution will be the replacement of the per minute based business models by the flat rate business models where the providers offer the bandwidth and it is up to the user what to do with it. Enjoy your iPhone because it is a really great device, but it is not the device that is changing the tide or changing powers on the marketfield of mobile communcation services. It sticks to not sustainable 20 century business models.

 

[MacFly123]

And how much did your Nokia E61 revolutionize the mobile phone industry lol? These are the words you need to ponder... IMPLEMENTATION & USER EXPERIENCE! That is why pretty much EVERYONE knows what an iPhone is but if you say to them Nokia E61 they would look at you like a deer in headlights!


quote
it is the worlds first all in one mobile computing and internet device with 3rd party apps aka even more storage wanted.

Above is your statement and that was what triggered me to write a reaction. It is simply not true that the iPhone is the first all in one phone. I agree with you about the user experience and that was already in my reaction: the iPhone is very revolutionaire with the user interface and that is the innovative aspect about the iPhone.

The Nokia E serie (e60, e61 and e70) will be in the phone history books as the first hybride voip enabled mobile phones on the market. Not a big seller because the mobile telco's did everything to protect their profitable mobile phone traffic but for the inside crowd of the voip industry a "must to have". It has been and it still is a very hot phone that gives a glimps of the future.
- just one phone for different numbers (home, work, wife, girlfriend)
- the option to link a number to the actual location (work phone only at work as part of the communciation solution, home phone at home)
- the option for sip providers to offer unified communication services
- providers charging flat rates for the service or costs per minute for long distance calls 10 times cheaper then what the mobile telco's are charging.

The real revolution going on is not in a user interface or in a materialized and smart marketing concept but in the proliferation of sip enabled telephony and other services to mobile devices that offers the user the freedom to avoid the high per minute prices the mobile telco's are charging now. The real revolution will be the replacement of the per minute based business models by the flat rate business models where the providers offer the bandwidth and it is up to the user what to do with it. Enjoy your iPhone because it is a really great device, but it is not the device that is changing the tide or changing powers on the marketfield of mobile communcation services. It sticks to not sustainable 20 century business models.

Ok sorry, maybe I should have worded it a little more carefully like this

quote
it is one of the worlds first innovative all in one mobile computing, media player, and internet device platforms with 3rd party apps aka even more storage wanted.

Now, I agree with you and those are all great features and progressions in the industry you listed, but my point is who in the general public will ever remember that phone? NOBODY! Sorry but it is true. I am not discounting the points you listed, but EVERYONE will remember the iPhone in the future not some Nokia E__ phone.

Now the iPhone may not be paving the VOIP path you are talking about yet, but it has had its own huge effect on the industry and carriers in ways that have never happened before! So we are basically agreeing.

 

[Archie-]

Ok sorry, maybe I should have worded it a little more carefully like this

quote
it is one of the worlds first innovative all in one mobile computing, media player, and internet device platforms with 3rd party apps aka even more storage wanted.

Now, I agree with you and those are all great features and progressions in the industry you listed, but my point is who in the general public will ever remember that phone? NOBODY! Sorry but it is true. I am not discounting the points you listed, but EVERYONE will remember the iPhone in the future not some Nokia E__ phone.

Now the iPhone may not be paving the VOIP path you are talking about yet, but it has had its own huge effect on the industry and carriers in ways that have never happened before! So we are basically agreeing.

You know the Razr also had its day. Dont be so arrogant about your fantasy future for the iPhone.

 

[ucfgrad93]

It depends if he wants to use his phone as a iPod, too, as some people want a lot of media on their iPod, and therefore need more space.

Agreed. My iPhone is 8GB which I got it as a gift about a month before the 16GB was announced. While I'd like the larger storage phone, I can't tell my wife and kids who got me my iPhone as a birthday present that. So I have to live with it. However, for me, it is a minor annoyance at most.

 

[t0mat0]

You know the Razr also had its day. Dont be so arrogant about your fantasy future for the iPhone.

Ouch.

Unfortunately, Motorola didn't quite know that it's days were numbered, and to get its act on to find a decent successor...

And don't knock iPhone fantasies
They have a high likelihood of happening, albeit at a later date than expected...

 

[MacFly123]

You know the Razr also had its day. Dont be so arrogant about your fantasy future for the iPhone.

LOL, you know what? You are right. I can fully agree that people will remember the RAZR. But what I am saying about the iPhone is ABSOLUTELY TRUE and has NOTHING to do with arrogance. If you can't see that as even the entire tech industry can then you are in pretty thick denial.

 

[SmartIndianKid]

Technically the iPhone isn't supposed to replace the iPod...otherwise why wouldn't they just make a 32 GB now? They can.

No they can't. At least not without a huge price hike.

The iPod touch uses two flash memory sticks, while the iPhone can only fit one. Thus, the capacity of the iPod touch will always be twice that of the iPhone.

Barring apple stupidly deciding to use a larger and highly more expensive NAND stick.

 

[Archie-]

LOL, you know what? You are right. I can fully agree that people will remember the RAZR. But what I am saying about the iPhone is ABSOLUTELY TRUE and has NOTHING to do with arrogance. If you can't see that as even the entire tech industry can then you are in pretty thick denial.

The lesson from the Razr was that a popular feature will eventually be adopted by another manufacturers and dilute the value of that feature, and no matter what other features you slap on, it may never be enough to bring back the former glory.

The killer feature of the iPhone is its web browser, but that lead is not going to last forever.

 

[zap2]

The lesson from the Razr was that a popular feature will eventually be adopted by another manufacturers and dilute the value of that feature, and no matter what other features you slap on, it may never be enough to bring back the former glory.
.

Yes! And the Razr has looks going for it, if thats all the iPhone had, then Apple would be in trouble.

The killer feature of the iPhone is its web browser, but that lead is not going to last forever.

Well, its going to be very hard to a anyone to copy Safari, because Safari uses the iPhone very well. Since other browser need to support for types of phones, they ability to catch will be lacking.

Also the iPhone doesn't only have Safari. iTunes support? Plus, 3rd party apps...will bust open the door.


I'm not saying Apple is set forever with the iPhone, Palm and Mot have proved you need to keep being great. And I think that Apple, since Jobs's return, has shown it can keep things great.

 

[steviem]

Eugh, but the RAZR had a disgusting UI. If Motorola had been working on their UI as well as they could've been, then it would still be popular.

Also look at the Prada which came out when the iPhone was announced. Yeah it looked good, and had MMS (big woop..) but the interface stinks big time.

 

[MacFly123]

The lesson from the Razr was that a popular feature will eventually be adopted by another manufacturers and dilute the value of that feature, and no matter what other features you slap on, it may never be enough to bring back the former glory.

The killer feature of the iPhone is its web browser, but that lead is not going to last forever.

No! The killer feature of the iPhone is its multi-touch user interface and user experience, and that is what also makes the browser amazing as well as all the other apps, and that lead will last a while. Like Steve said, it is about 5 years ahead, and so far with all the copying attempts that have failed I'd say he was right!

 

[Archie-]

No! The killer feature of the iPhone is its multi-touch user interface and user experience, and that is what also makes the browser amazing as well as all the other apps, and that lead will last a while. Like Steve said, it is about 5 years ahead, and so far with all the copying attempts that have failed I'd say he was right!

The multi-touch feature is a joke. It could as easily be replaced with an on-screen slider.

The surveys have shown that the iPhone gets used more often as a web tablet than an Ipod or video Ipod. The screen is large, and the browser nice. Better browsers exist already (e.g. Opera Mobile, which is more standard compliant, and has a nice interface), and more are coming along as we speak (mobile Firefox for example), and anyone can make a big, high-res screen.

Lets put it this way - the iPhone is already having stiff competition from phones without touch screens (e.g. Nokia N95). When these same phones, with similar web kit-based browsers, get touch screens too, which one do you think will sell better (hint: the N95 already sells a lot better than the iPhone).

 

[MacFly123]

The multi-touch feature is a joke. It could as easily be replaced with an on-screen slider.

The surveys have shown that the iPhone gets used more often as a web tablet than an Ipod or video Ipod. The screen is large, and the browser nice. Better browsers exist already (e.g. Opera Mobile, which is more standard compliant, and has a nice interface), and more are coming along as we speak (mobile Firefox for example), and anyone can make a big, high-res screen.

Lets put it this way - the iPhone is already having stiff competition from phones without touch screens (e.g. Nokia N95). When these same phones, with similar web kit-based browsers, get touch screens too, which one do you think will sell better (hint: the N95 already sells a lot better than the iPhone).

It is pretty apparent that you are not getting the point of the USER EXPERIENCE and IMPLEMENTATION so I will kindly take my conversation elsewhere to those that comprehend how important those things are! It is those two things that set most everything Apple does apart from everything else. Look at the iPod! How many other MP3 players are there? Starting to get the hint?

 

[zap2]

The multi-touch feature is a joke. It could as easily be replaced with an on-screen slider..

You know multi-touch is used in tons of the iPhone app? And its not just multi-touch, its that, the interface, iTunes support, Safari, built in memory(which still many phone skip on), etc

It will be a while before someone nails it in a way which will catch them up to Apple, very long in the US market

The surveys have shown that the iPhone gets used more often as a web tablet than an Ipod or video Ipod. .

Is that so? Source? Just because it possible get used as that, doesn't mean its the only feature

. The screen is large, and the browser nice. Better browsers exist already (e.g. Opera Mobile, which is more standard compliant, and has a nice interface), and more are coming along as we speak (mobile Firefox for example), and anyone can make a big, high-res screen.

Please, stop. If Opera Mobile is better, then what good would a new browser better then Safari do? Clearly the iPhone selling well is based on something else. And if you honestly thing Opera Mini is better, you're nuts. Its nice because it works on my platforms, but Safari wins with features and it has higher end hardware to run on vs platform agonstic stuff


The N95 comments are unsupported. Source for Nokia N95 out selling iPhone?(from the date the iPhone was around....even then its not a great comparison because the N95 is sold in more counties)


Do you think Apple's going to stop, since they have a hit? This isn't Palm or Mot...this is a company know over the last ten years for raising the bar.

 

[ucfgrad93]

Lets put it this way - the iPhone is already having stiff competition from phones without touch screens (e.g. Nokia N95). When these same phones, with similar web kit-based browsers, get touch screens too, which one do you think will sell better (hint: the N95 already sells a lot better than the iPhone).

This article states that the iPhone is the number one browser already in the US. Not to bad considering it has only been around less than a year.

It's been on the market for just six months, and already the iPhone (plus its Wi-Fi-only variant, the iPod Touch) is the most used mobile browser for Internet access in the U.S., according to Irish researcher StatCounter. At No. 2 is the Symbian OS used in Nokia's devices.

http://www.macworld.com/article/132897/2008/04/iphonetop.html

 

[Archie-]

Mobile Content Consumption: iPhone, Smartphone and Total Market: January 2008

Activity
iPhone
Smartphone*
Market

Any news or info via browser
84.8%
58.2%
13.1%

Accessed web search
58.6%
37.0%
6.1%

Watched mobile TV and/or video
30.9%
14.2%
4.6%

Watched on-demand video or TV programming
20.9%
7.0%
1.4%

Accessed Social Networking Site or Blog
49.7%
19.4%
4.2%

Listened to music on mobile phone
74.1%
27.9%
6.7%

Source: M:Metrics, Inc., Copyright © 2008. Survey of U.S. mobile subscribers. Data based on three-month moving average for period ending 31st January 2008, n = 31,389.

http://www.mmetrics.com/press/PressRelease.aspx?article=20080318-iphonehype

By that survey 80% of iPhone users dont use their iPhone for video, whereas 85% use it for web browsing.

You know multi-touch is used in tons of the iPhone app?

Can you use your phone one-handed? Maybe the multi-touch feature is not that important after all. The fact is that the main usage is for zooming in the iPhone, and in Safari a double-tap is just as good.

Please, stop. If Opera Mobile is better, then what good would a new browser better then Safari do? Clearly the iPhone selling well is based on something else

I said Opera Mobile, not Mini. And I said the advantage the iPhone has is a a huge high-res screen. That, with a good browser, is pretty easy to replicate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnJFSDwXfZo&feature=related

This article states that the iPhone is the number one browser already in the US. Not to bad considering it has only been around less than a year.

Being number 1 in USA is not very meaningful. The USA has around 8% of the world mobile phone market. CDMA is king in USA. You are only getting 3G now. The biggest phone manufacturer in the world, with near 40% of the market, does not feature in USA. You consider the generation 1 iPhone the greatest thing since sliced bread.

You are clearly an odd market. You really should not generalise your experience to the rest of the world.

Nokia sold more than 18 million of their high-end devices world-wide, whereas Apple only sold 4 million. And remember that a huge amount of Apple US sales are being exported to the world market, so the iPhone might as well be released world-wide. And before cost is brought up, remember the unsubsidised N95 is $800, so its not exactly a cheap phone. None of the N-series phones are.

 

[lesouvage]

LOL, you know what? You are right. I can fully agree that people will remember the RAZR. But what I am saying about the iPhone is ABSOLUTELY TRUE and has NOTHING to do with arrogance. If you can't see that as even the entire tech industry can then you are in pretty thick denial.

.

It's not the techies that are impressed by the iPhone. Actually, from a technical point of view the iPhone isn't that innovative at all and the protection of the lock on the device turned out to be a total failure (of the techies I assume). There are even some weird limitations, like the crippled blue tooth support (only for phone calls, not for music, no transfer of files like any other blue tooth enabled phone), the strange bug in the earlier version with the effect of not receiving sms messages with an alphanumeric sender field, the limitations of the browser like lack of flash and java support while they promisse a full internet experience.

All the techniques were availabe and haven't been developed for the iPhone. Yes they combined it together in a very clever way that fits the Iphone marketing concept they developed. The group of people that have great respect for what Apple achieves are the marketing guys. Apple is doing it time after time, bringing overpriced devices to the market, hype them and sell them in the millions. (dont get me wrong I have some of this overpriced devices myself and I love them and I really admire Apple for this). This has to do with the high quality of what they offer but also with the well designed user experience and marketing concepts that other brands can only dream of (the iPhone is actually a materialized marketing concept), the "must to have" feeling and the fact that walking around with apple devices is the same as giving a statement to others about who you are or who you want to be. Everybody who has used his/her macbook air or the iPhone in the early days in a public place will understand this.

I have no idea about what "entire tech industry" you are talking about but certainly not the telecom techies. But Apple is a great example for marketeers who are in the business of life style products and user experience. Apple had the change to become a (the) major and global SIP/VOIP provider the same way they have become the number one internet music provider with their ItuneStore and create billions of added value for their shareholders by integrating an Apple SIP client like Nokia did with their E-line of hybride phones. With some killing apps using SIP to its full potential and offering some clever flat rate services (presence, IM, phonecalls etc.) they could have rocked the communication market. It has been their choice to stick to old non sustainable 20th century business models.

btw: I'm not in "pretty thick denial". The fact is that Apple doesn't have control anymore over the conditions needed for the businessmodel they choose, with a growing percentage (25 % in februari) hacked and unlocked iPhones (just Google on "percentage hacked iphones") and all the benifits you have (really great apps control over your own iPhone, no need to change provider) after you unlock and unjail your iPhone by clicking on the right icons in the proper application.

 

[zap2]

By that survey 80% of iPhone users dont use their iPhone for video, whereas 85% use it for web browsing./QUOTE]

But for how much? I'm not saying people don't use Safari on the iPhone a lot, but music is 75%, and I'd guess thats a constant thing. Some people might use the internet only once in a while. What should be done is compare iPhone usage vs other smartphones, that tells you what people are buy the iPhone for over other devices. Again, I agree Safari is one of iPhone's strong points, but its not the only one.

Can you use your phone one-handed? Maybe the multi-touch feature is not that important after all. The fact is that the main usage is for zooming in the iPhone, and in Safari a double-tap is just as good./QUOTE]

I can, but I like to browse and type with two hand, when I can. Again, I feel you're missing my point, I'm saying the whole UI is why the iPhone is doing well.

Being number 1 in USA is not very meaningful. e.

Well, I'd disagree, being 1# anywhere is something for a company to be happy about

CDMA is king in USA.

Please, GSM and CMDA are neck and neck here, AT&T is the biggest provider in the US, and they use GSM, so clearly CMDA isn't "king" Verizon is big too, but when its so close, neither is king by a long shot. Plus with Verizon moving to GSM for its 4G network, CMDA's time is number

You consider the generation 1 iPhone the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Out of line, please don't tell me what I consider anything, thank you

You really should not generalise your experience to the rest of the world.
.

Want to point me out where I did that?

Nokia sold more than 18 million of their high-end devices world-wide,-series phones are.

So comparing Nokia's whole line up of smartphones to Apple's one phone. Why not compare the N95 along, like you were earlier?

And remember that a huge amount of Apple US sales are being exported to the world market, so the iPhone might as well be released world-wide..

No, in no way is that true. Do you really think that? Even if US iPhone are doing to other parts of the world, that grey market is not compariable to Nokia's market

And before cost is brought up, remember the unsubsidised N95 is $800, so its not exactly a cheap phone. None of the N-series phones are.

Nor is the iPhone...plus in most places, you need to buy the iPhone with a plan, or going into hacked area, a headache some want to avoid. Even with that, sales are high

Also remember, this is Apple's first cell phone, and its selling very well(Yes, 4+million units is very well, in yes then a year, in only a few markets)