Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

ftaok

macrumors 603
Jan 23, 2002
6,485
1,571
East Coast
The Raven explodes after Gaal leaves. So Hari’s hologram won’t make it to Helicon to star the 2nd Foundation. OTOH Gaal still has the device containing Hari’s recorded consciousness… not gonna try to predict how that will end up but it’s interesting.
The Raven is the ship that Gaal was on, right? It exploded? When did that happen?

I thought that she destroyed the Heat Exchanger so that she wouldn't be able to survive the temperature increase in the ship ... to force hologram-Seldon's hand. I assumed (and I think she even says it) that the ship would still be able to get to Helicon on it's own.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ratsg

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,476
7,316
Exactly, it’s an odd storyline to toe, seems unnecessary. On top of the predictions the math can make storyline.

(Uh... trying to make this as vague and un-spoilery as possible but if you're worried, stop reading)

...but as @owidhh said, the 2nd novel onwards introduced telepathy and mind control in order to mess with psychohistory and avoid the story being "...and all of Harry's predictions came true so they all lived happily ever after". Then the later books retconned in a backstory (from other Asimov novels) of where the "magic" telepathy came from (still pretty much magic, though). It has been reported that the makers don't have the rights to the characters from those other novels (and, to be sure, the character from the books who should be the link has been completely re-invented in the show and shows no signs of being telepathic)...

Since the 1950s, telepathy and mind control has been rather over-used in SF (this is not the plot device you are looking for...) and given we've left adherence to the text a long way behind I think substituting "prescience" would be (a) no less magical than telepathy and (b) something that would, plausibly, totally mess with psychohistory (which already depends on the subjects being ignorant of the predictions).
 
  • Like
Reactions: owidhh and Tagbert

Pezimak

macrumors 68030
May 1, 2021
2,857
3,050
(Uh... trying to make this as vague and un-spoilery as possible but if you're worried, stop reading)

...but as @owidhh said, the 2nd novel onwards introduced telepathy and mind control in order to mess with psychohistory and avoid the story being "...and all of Harry's predictions came true so they all lived happily ever after". Then the later books retconned in a backstory (from other Asimov novels) of where the "magic" telepathy came from (still pretty much magic, though). It has been reported that the makers don't have the rights to the characters from those other novels (and, to be sure, the character from the books who should be the link has been completely re-invented in the show and shows no signs of being telepathic)...

Since the 1950s, telepathy and mind control has been rather over-used in SF (this is not the plot device you are looking for...) and given we've left adherence to the text a long way behind I think substituting "prescience" would be (a) no less magical than telepathy and (b) something that would, plausibly, totally mess with psychohistory (which already depends on the subjects being ignorant of the predictions).

AHHHHH I MUST STOP READING!!,

I don’t want to know thanks, never read the books so leave me to ponder in my thoughts its a strange storyline… until it’s explained further and makes sense.
 
Last edited:

Tagbert

macrumors 603
Jun 22, 2011
5,452
6,276
Seattle
AHHHHH I MUST STOP READING!!,

I don’t want to know thanks, never read the books so leave me to ponder in my thoughts are a strange storyline… until it’s explained further and makes sense.
You probably don't need to worry too much about being spoiled by information from the books. it is clear that the show team is writing their own storylines only loosely based on the books. I think that is appropriate. the two mediums have different narrative needs. I usually think of movie adaptions of books as happening in parallel universes. Things may have once been similar but chance and conditions have caused them to diverge into distinct worlds. You'll be a lot less frustrated if you don't expect 1:1 correlation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: owidhh and drsox

owidhh

macrumors regular
Jun 12, 2021
155
193
The Raven is the ship that Gaal was on, right? It exploded? When did that happen?

I thought that she destroyed the Heat Exchanger so that she wouldn't be able to survive the temperature increase in the ship ... to force hologram-Seldon's hand. I assumed (and I think she even says it) that the ship would still be able to get to Helicon on it's own.

Right? It's just upon a rewatch that I really noticed it. So after she destroys the heat exchanger, and she's sweating, if you look carefully behind Hari you'll see some flames in the bridge of the ship.

then, as she leaves, before she sets the course to Synnax, there's a reflection of the Raven in her pod's window, and then there's an explosion -- the Raven exploding.

first time I watched I thought it was jus some flashing from her pod passing through the debris field, but on my 2nd watch I def noticed the Raven exploding.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,476
7,316
Right? It's just upon a rewatch that I really noticed it.
I see what you mean - but it's really blink-and-you'll-miss it and ambiguous, not to mention a rubbish CGI reminiscent of the good old "ship disappears and is replaced by a firework" effect from the 1970s. You'd think that such a vital event would be accompanied by dramatic music, shocked reactions from Gaal (but then she's been crying for the last 3 episodes so who can tell?) and elaborate CGI sequences of spinning, flaming debris... Maybe we'll see it better in flashback next season when the budget gets refreshed or maybe it was just a bit of lens flare gone awry...

Anyway,
we also know that there's another copy of Virtual!Seldon on Terminus.

Also, in the books,
the location of the Second Foundation and the meaning of "Star's End" is a mystery throughout most of the original trilogy, subject to many twists, turns and false trails.
 
  • Like
Reactions: owidhh

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,476
7,316
You probably don't need to worry too much about being spoiled by information from the books. it is clear that the show team is writing their own storylines only loosely based on the books.
They are very (very) vaguely following the plot of the first "Seldon Crisis" (to the level of "it's a dispute between the Foundation and Anacreon" - I think the idea of an abandoned Imperial warship loaded with juicy tech came up in the first book). If you've read the books you probably guessed what would come out of the Vault and are probably speculating that
Virtual!Hari was lying about the Second Foundation being on Helicon
- for example.

It's actually interesting to know what people who haven't read the book - and so don't have any expectations of what the plot will be - think about the show. I'm firmly of the school that a "faithful" adaptation of the books would have been as dull as ditchwater (the Elijah Bailey books would have made a far better show) so I'm more forgiving of Foundation than, say, Altered Carbon (where the first season did follow the A-plot of the book fairly closely, and was pretty good, but completely rewrote the protagonist's back-story from mercenary anti-hero to heroic freedom fighter - which pretty much wrecked any prospect of adapting the subsequent books...)
 

owidhh

macrumors regular
Jun 12, 2021
155
193
Anyway,
we also know that there's another copy of Virtual!Seldon on Terminus.
Agreed that it happens so quick it's easy to miss, so it might be misdirection..

re: the spoiler,
I might have mentioned - Gaal leaves the Raven with Raych's knife which holds the copy of Hari's consciousness.. so.. multiple Haris in future seasons !?
 

owidhh

macrumors regular
Jun 12, 2021
155
193
"The people have elected me mayor, so I'm running away tonight"[

Guess we'll be seeing more of Salvor over the course of the 1000 years lol

Overall, not a bad ending, and as is the common thread throughout season 1, I can't wait to see what Season 2 has in store for the Cleons!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tagbert

owidhh

macrumors regular
Jun 12, 2021
155
193
Thinking some more, the ending explains why they merged the 1st and 2nd crises together into one and made it happen 15 years earlier. It was to get Salvor out of *that* role and into another role...

Anybody else noticed the image of the solar system on Demerzel's repair case? I hadn't noticed until I watched a Youtube video about this episode...

I do like that, with both this and Abas's mention of Earth in episode 9, they're planting the seed of later plots..
 

Pezimak

macrumors 68030
May 1, 2021
2,857
3,050
Bit of a turn around for the Day character in the latest episode, acted well too. Not sure why the Android went mental at the end? But very good effects I must say.
 

ftaok

macrumors 603
Jan 23, 2002
6,485
1,571
East Coast
Bit of a turn around for the Day character in the latest episode, acted well too. Not sure why the Android went mental at the end? But very good effects I must say.
She went mental because her programming forced her to kill Dawn, whom she pretty much raised like a son. She was forced, against her will, to kill her child. That would **** anyone up.
 

Tagbert

macrumors 603
Jun 22, 2011
5,452
6,276
Seattle
She went mental because her programming forced her to kill Dawn, whom she pretty much raised like a son. She was forced, against her will, to kill her child. That would **** anyone up.
In addition, it is looking like all of the Cleons have been genetically diverted from the original. The whole clone dynasty that she is programmed to be loyal to is contaminated.
 

Pezimak

macrumors 68030
May 1, 2021
2,857
3,050
She went mental because her programming forced her to kill Dawn, whom she pretty much raised like a son. She was forced, against her will, to kill her child. That would **** anyone up.

It's a robot though not a person, so no I don't relate to that messing anyone up at all.
 

Paninnguaq

macrumors regular
Jul 27, 2018
134
103
In addition, it is looking like all of the Cleons have been genetically diverted from the original. The whole clone dynasty that she is programmed to be loyal to is contaminated.
We know that current Day is contaminated, hence why he wasn't "programmed" to agree with Dusk on all matters. We don't know yet if the current Dusk has been altered. The contamination could post-date his birth. And knowing what Dusk did to Anacreon and Thespis when he was Day, and also how stubborn he seems to be now, it is likely he is still a perfect copy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ackmondual

Paninnguaq

macrumors regular
Jul 27, 2018
134
103
It's a robot though not a person, so no I don't relate to that messing anyone up at all.
The way I see it, her programming to serve the dynasty is a layer laid upon her base nature. Hence why she "feels" with her base nature, but the overlaid layer of programming forces her to act discordantly to it. This causes much inner turmoil within her. Almost like a person who is "possessed" by a spirit and forced to do things they don't want to.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ackmondual

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,476
7,316
It's a robot though not a person, so no I don't relate to that messing anyone up at all.
Watch it, that sort of robophobic hate speech will get you banned from MacRumors in the year 124,798. :)

Seriously, though - its a theme that runs through Asimov’s robot books - robots can’t kill and if they could be somehow manoeuvred into killing (as happens in a number of occasions) they suffer serious mental damage. Also, in the more advanced models with human-like characteristics, programming conflicts cause something analogous to human distress. Even the few robots that reason their way around the three laws to justify risking harm to humans for the good of humanity as a whole, struggle to do so without damage.

Problem with Foundation is that Asimov retconned the original trilogy to make his robot stories part of the Foundation universe’s history, and Dermerel became one of the crossover characters... but, as reported on some YouTube channels (so it’s 110% true /s), the show makers didn’t get the rights to the characters and stories from the robot books, so they‘re inventing a new back story involving “the robot wars” and robots with full-blown emotions that can kill (and then feel bad about it).

Kinda ironic that “Finch” referenced Asimov’s 3-laws of robotics but “Foundation” didn’t.
 
  • Like
Reactions: drsox

drsox

macrumors 68000
Apr 29, 2011
1,703
200
Xhystos
We know that current Day is contaminated, hence why he wasn't "programmed" to agree with Dusk on all matters. We don't know yet if the current Dusk has been altered. The contamination could post-date his birth. And knowing what Dusk did to Anacreon and Thespis when he was Day, and also how stubborn he seems to be now, it is likely he is still a perfect copy.

I wonder if this clone gene tampering is a convenient plot device to initiate the fall of the empire. Might it "humanise" the "Clones" leading to a slow loss of autocratic and martial behaviour. Nothing, I think, is in the books as a specific cause of the downfall. Might there be a parallel to the Roman history of diminishing martial spirit and eventual out-sourcing of the military leading to weakness that was exploited by the barbarians beyond the boundaries. (Partly as a result of conversion to Christianity - argues Gibbon). Imagine your favourite historic autocrat/dictator gene modified to emphasise pacifism.
 

Paninnguaq

macrumors regular
Jul 27, 2018
134
103
I wonder if this clone gene tampering is a convenient plot device to initiate the fall of the empire. Might it "humanise" the "Clones" leading to a slow loss of autocratic and martial behaviour. Nothing, I think, is in the books as a specific cause of the downfall. Might there be a parallel to the Roman history of diminishing martial spirit and eventual out-sourcing of the military leading to weakness that was exploited by the barbarians beyond the boundaries. (Partly as a result of conversion to Christianity - argues Gibbon). Imagine your favourite historic autocrat/dictator gene modified to emphasise pacifism.
I’ve been wondering along those lines too. Humanising is exactly the word I’d use too. The funny thing is that it could theoretically work in the opposite direction too. Maybe pacifism/diplomacy is exactly what saves the empire, or at least slows down the descent.

I also wonder if Hari’s psychohistory model accounted for the contamination of the Cleons and their subsequent humanising, or whether it’s predictions were based on the assumption that the genetic dynasty would continue uninterrupted for centuries with all emperors always choosing violence over peace? It could mean the difference between Hari knowing of the contamination, or his model being entirely wrong because one significant change like this to the most important line of persons in the empire could throw the entire set of predictions off now…Of course the empire is said to already be in a state of downfall, so maybe that change doesn’t matter at all.

All that talk about souls on the luminism moon also has me wondering if the clones are more original beings successively, then is it possible that they’d develop souls? Day doesn’t seem to have a soul, judging from his lack of a vision at the end of the spiral walk . Demerzel had a vision all those years back, despite being a robot. So maybe robots can develop souls? Or maybe it’s all a hogwash invented by the practitioners of luminism, and the visions are just exertion and environment induced neurological phenomena that have nothing to do with souls.
 
Last edited:

drsox

macrumors 68000
Apr 29, 2011
1,703
200
Xhystos
I’ve been wondering along those lines too. Humanising is exactly the word I’d use too. The funny thing is that it could theoretically work in the opposite direction too. Maybe pacifism/diplomacy is exactly what saves the empire, or at least slows down the descent.

I also wonder if Hari’s psychohistory model accounted for the contamination of the Cleons and their subsequent humanising, or whether it’s predictions were based on the assumption that the genetic dynasty would continue uninterrupted for centuries with all emperors always choosing violence over peace? It could mean the difference between Hari knowing of the contamination, or his model being entirely wrong because one significant change like this to the most important line of persons in the empire could throw the entire set of predictions off now…Of course the empire is said to already be in a state of downfall, so maybe that change doesn’t matter at all.

All that talk about souls on the luminism moon also has me wondering if the clones are more original beings successively, then is it possible that they’d develop souls? Day doesn’t seem to have a soul, judging from his lack of a vision at the end of the spiral walk . Demerzel had a vision all those years back, despite being a robot. So maybe robots can develop souls? Or maybe it’s all a hogwash invented by the practitioners of luminism, and the visions are just exertion and environment induced neurological phenomena that have nothing to do with souls.

I suspect that Psychohistory would treat the future trajectory of the empire as a "mass" with "momentum" in a multi variable representation. (c.f. the patterns projected by the mystery polyhedron). So the behaviour of/events around a small number of people (no matter how powerful) would have only a limited amount of effect.

The Day/Demerzel comparison might mean that Demerzel is more human that Day (as a plot device) reinforcing the genius of the inventor of the positronic brain. (Another Asimov theme.)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Paninnguaq

mel823

macrumors 6502a
Sep 7, 2012
628
324
NYC
Am I the only one cringing at the whole Salvor is Gaal’s daughter thing? In one fell swoop it has reduced Foundation to a soap opera in space.

You clearly don’t watch soap opera’s if you thought that was a soap opera reveal.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.