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I hate to repeat myself, but I have something to backup what I'm saying. Let's see some proof, rather than just pure conjecture?

If you actually look at high-tech manufacturing jobs on the market, you'd see:

http://jobs.intel.com/ShowJob/Id/1014158/D1C-Manufacturing-Technician/
Candidate should possess a minimum of an AS Degree in Microelectronics, Electronic Engineering Technology, or Computer Electronic Engineering Technology. Additional Qualifications include: - Demonstrate experience with substantial experience in equipment troubleshooting and repair. - Demonstrate experience with schematics for troubleshooting - Demonstrate experience with L2/L3 module maintenance and hands-on troubleshooting on Module Specific platforms is preferred. - 300mm experience desired.

You get none of that with a BS in engineering. Go ask any undergrad in EE what "300 mm" is. Ask them to explain the different types of vacuum pumps. Ask any guy with a BSEE from a "top" university to describe the considerations of mechanical relays. They'll be lost.

More
http://jobs.intel.com/ShowJob/Id/1071036/AZ-FSM-Manufacturing-Technician/

https://careers-cree.icims.com/jobs/4361/engineering-technician/job
  • EET or AS degree or equivalent training in Electrical Engineering, Photonics or other related technical field.
  • 3+ years experience in product/ process development in a R&D lab environment.

https://careers-cree.icims.com/jobs/4368/manufacturing-equipment-maintenance-technician/job
  • 5+ years experience in a industrial mechanical, electrical equipment maintenance position
  • 5+ years service in a hands-on maintenance or engineering capacity
  • Full understanding of mechanical, electrical and P&ID drawings for semiconductor equipment repair
  • Full understanding of detailed vacuum system troubleshooting and operations
  • Experience maintaining and installing a wide variety of electrical and semiconductor components including electrical boards, valves, pumps and motors.
  • Familiar with various methods of leak checking vacuum systems
  • Able to work overtime to support business needs.
  • Able to work in clean room for extended period of time.
 
If you actually look at high-tech manufacturing jobs on the market, you'd see:

http://jobs.intel.com/ShowJob/Id/1014158/D1C-Manufacturing-Technician/


You get none of that with a BS in engineering. Go ask any undergrad in EE what "300 mm" is. Ask them to explain the different types of vacuum pumps. Ask any guy with a BSEE from a "top" university to describe the considerations of mechanical relays. They'll be lost.

More
http://jobs.intel.com/ShowJob/Id/1071036/AZ-FSM-Manufacturing-Technician/

https://careers-cree.icims.com/jobs/4361/engineering-technician/job


https://careers-cree.icims.com/jobs/4368/manufacturing-equipment-maintenance-technician/job

I fail to see your point, are you trying to tell me that someone with an AS degree knows more than someone with a BS degree?

I think the point Steve Jobs was trying to make, and the point I am trying to make, is our educational system is not producing enough technically trained engineers to staff a large scale factory. In pure numbers, there just are not enough, but I get it math is hard, science is hard, people don't want to go into fields that are based on provable facts.
 
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Oh please. There is education and then there is education as a business. All I've seen from the so called "educated" in this country is a bunch of morons that are too busy protesting things that don't matter yet have no idea how to write a check out or how a lease works. In this country a college education is nothing more than a 1940's high school education...and even then it is lacking. Everyone is brainwashed into going to these schools and paying tens of thousands of dollars for what should have been taught in the public school systems. Half of these people going to colleges have no idea what they want to do and then end up majoring in something pointless that doesn't help them at all in the future. We used to teach trades in high school and give kids exposure to all kinds of different things so they would have a good idea by the end what they wanted to do. Not today. Today we just prep them for college with all kinds of rubbish courses and give then no foundation for the future. The 1970's was the last era of proper education in this country. The school systems here in this country are just setting up kids to be customers of the colleges. The only college education worth a damn in this country is for specialized fields like medicine. Go to a state college and you'll learn all about trans gender bathrooms but not how the world works. In every field I have worked in I was amazed at how much these recent grads didn't know, yet the guy that didn't go has a better grasp on the job. I saw that the most in IT. The added benefit of todays education is nobody knows what its like to fail or loose something. If they do bad in school, mommy fights with the school and the grades somehow change. If they do poorly at sports, they get a trophy. If they "try" in certain schools (read coalition of essential schools) that is good enough to pass. It is creating a generation of idiots with a piss poor education they paid $100k for.

We went to the moon is the 1960's...yet todays scientist and industry specialists seem to have no idea how to make that happen. You'd think it would be pretty easy.....but not if you have a lesser education than the people who did it in the first place. The did it on rope memory and a fancy calculator. Today we have a super computer in our pocket that could take us there...yet its taking forever. It took them 9 years to do it in the 1960s and 95% of the things to do it weren't invented. Today we have all the knowledge and better tech, yet nothing is happening.

Our education system is run by morons and things like common core are just a complete waste of time and resources. I think education in the 1940's & 50's worked well for us....let's start there. I've seen the course work for 1-3rd grade recently and it is an appalling mess. There was a section dedicated to convincing kids there is no wrong answer. It was like "if Billy has 20 apples, how may of them are green?" No matter what you put, its correct. What kind of rubbish b.s. is that? How about you wake me up when America learns what education is. Less trans-gender bathroom diversity acceptance education and more "here is how money works".

When I went to school they pretended like 1946 - 2000 didn't exist...so we learned nothing. It was all Greece, Egypt, Romans, Civil War, & Revolutionary War. We also couldn't be bothered to learn how the government works...but I can read hieroglyphics and order a gyro . That's ***** useful.
Can't argue with some of that, but I don't think we are willing, or even can, go back in time. For better or worse, the world has changed and whether we like it or not, we must adapt or be left behind.

If manufacturing comes back the States, I believe that in light of strict environmental laws, increased use of ever more sophisticated robotics coupled with our own unwillingness to perform tedious and repetitive manual labor for modest wages, the scale of that returning manufacturing base will be limited at best.

The best scenario would be, through better education in practical fields such as mechanical engineering, biochemical engineering, robotics, etc., etc., that we could remain at or near the top of scientific progress by producing, and/or attracting, the brightest minds to lead the world in innovation, discoveries, and product design, etc., while leaving most of the mundane details to robotics.
 
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Building a large scale plant in the US requires 100's if not 1000's of engineers, the US just doesn't have them.

Congrats to people on their SJW degrees, I'm sure the pay and befits are great at Starbucks and all, but maybe people should have put in some work, and gone into a field that is needed in the real world.

I think you'll find a lot of people with SJW degrees at places like Google. If you don't understand people you cannot make good products. Also, everybody lives in the 'real world', with one possible notable exception I can think of.
 
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Duh.
I've ALWAYS said this.
Foxconn's largest facility employs 400,000 workers.
Where would they put that in America & who would work there??
It's not feasible! Ok... imagine they found a place near Los Angeles to put it (unlikely); they'd still need to hire one in eight of EVERY SINGLE resident, just to run the place! Get real.
Not to mention what they said about not finding people accustomed to/fit for that type of labor.
There, it is a badge of pride to work those jobs & do so meticulously.
Here, that's considered garbage "menial labor" & people do those type of jobs begrudgingly, & at the lowest amount of quality they can skate by with, whilst keeping their job.

We DO need new industries & new jobs in our country...... but NOT these type of factory jobs.

Make American Great Again meant pre- industrial revolution????!

Foxconn statement on jobs, 100% iPhone automation in 5 years. Cutting 400k jobs in China. Reality, overly optimistic. Maybe Foxconn hits 50%, a significant job loss in China, who has low wages to begin with. If they decide to enter the US, the factory will be as close to 100% automated as they can get.
 
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<snip>
Second, people are willing to pay more for "made in America", so a special version could be made, with a unique color scheme (solid blue? Blue with Red and White trim?) for $50 more?
Note the Product Red line sells well (granted it is also charity).

Puke.
Lol, yeah- run that by Jony!

Plus.... you're just making this stuff up!
Where's the red, white, & blue Chevy trucks that cost the same as a Mercedes but people are buying them out of national "loyalty"? Oh, they don't exist? Oh, because you're full of it?
Ok.
 
I fail to see your point, are you trying to tell me that someone with an AS degree knows more than someone with a BS degree?

The AS education is geared towards trades and actually working with and fixing equipment. The BS education is geared towards theory and in many cases, to prepare you for a Masters. On top of that, you lose 2 years of productive career time, and pay directly and/or through taxes for a lot more expensive education.

Direct example. A BS in EE takes at least two classes in Maxwell's equations plus the vector calculus that goes into that. In High School you'd have to have taken calculus then. Then you take a whole years in transistor circuits, where you do transistor-level design of amplifiers and things like Norton and Thevenin equivalents. And remember, to get into college, you have to take several years of a foreign language, and in college there's a one year requirement of that.

What does this have to do with operating the thin-film deposition equipment for a display screen? Nothing. The University/BS degree that is so "essential" consists almost solely of skills which are simply not in demand for these manufacturing jobs, and in fact not in demand for a large number of design jobs either.

Another example: you want a EE to build you a circuit board. That sounds reasonable. Where do they learn how to do this in a University education? If you are a computer engineer or you opt to, you take one semester on a final project where you do this. Basically 80% of college BSEE graduates have zero circuit board experience, and those who do have done one in their life.
 
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Foxconn statement on jobs, 100% iPhone automation in 5 years. Cutting 400k jobs in China. Reality, overly optimistic. Maybe Foxconn hits 50%, a significant job loss in China, who has low wages to begin with. If they decide to enter the US, the factory will be as close to 100% automated as they can get.

Exactly!
These are NOT the "jobs" we want over here...
See my other post about Didi Chuxing coming over here & creating actual good jobs; let's encourage that!
 
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First off, the high end models will cost the same regardless of where made, just the lower profit margin is what Apple will be willing to absorb. If that line makes up only a small % of total then it is acceptable loss.

Think iPhone 7s with 128gb of memory, which I guess make up <10% of total sales.

Second, people are willing to pay more for "made in America", so a special version could be made, with a unique color scheme (solid blue? Blue with Red and White trim?) for $50 more?
Note the Product Red line sells well (granted it is also charity).

Apple hardly ever takes less margins. Ignore the USB C cable price adjustments.

Apple will raise prices. Look at iPad prices. Went up. Look at iPhone prices. Went up. Look at MBP prices. Went up.
 
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Foxconn would also have to deal with all those pesky environmental hurdles foisted on them by the EPA.

{EPA being slowly dismantled}

Pre-industrial devolution it is. :D

By the time all reviews are in, China already built 5 plants and has the people etc to wo/man them.

Add paperwork, tax structures and it becomes quite clear why everything with manual labor is made some place else.

As for minimum wages US can't even agree to raise the federal rate of $ 7.25 to a reasonable amount.

Many states are doing it, instead of waiting.
[doublepost=1489092014][/doublepost]
I fail to see your point, are you trying to tell me that someone with an AS degree knows more than someone with a BS degree?

I think the point Steve Jobs was trying to make, and the point I am trying to make, is our educational system is not producing enough technically trained engineers to staff a large scale factory. In pure numbers, there just are not enough, but I get it math is hard, science is hard, people don't want to go into fields that are based on provable facts.

You are so right. In life everything one has to work for is hard.
Unfortunately over many generations the attitude of working hard has been lost by just too many freeloaders. (For lack of a better word) Kids of today get almost everything for free from their parents. Separated and divorced parents make sure they pay for their guilt by spoiling the kids.

How many news stations report real life world events to provide a global overview?It News are full of celebrity gossip, murders , violence reporting, or other disasters. Plus some biased politics depending on which channel.

The US education system is set so students drop out when it's "too hard" and doing something easier. Very few learn other languages to make themselves more employable and low "menial" job workers will rarely leave where they live.

And, let's face it not everybody is bright , but they all do have exaggerated expectations of what they should have in life.
 
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Foxconn would also have to deal with all those pesky environmental hurdles foisted on them by the EPA.

{EPA being slowly dismantled}

Pre-industrial devolution it is. :D
__________________
Trump's EPA will Permit: dumping of lead in nearby streams...unlimited smoke stack emissions...etc...because this is what they voted for.
[doublepost=1489097949][/doublepost]
By the time all reviews are in, China already built 5 plants and has the people etc to wo/man them.

Add paperwork, tax structures and it becomes quite clear why everything with manual labor is made some place else.

As for minimum wages US can't even agree to raise the federal rate of $ 7.25 to a reasonable amount.

Many states are doing it, instead of waiting.
[doublepost=1489092014][/doublepost]

You are so right. In life everything one has to work for is hard.
Unfortunately over many generations the attitude of working hard has been lost by just too many freeloaders. (For lack of a better word) Kids of today get almost everything for free from their parents. Separated and divorced parents make sure they pay for their guilt by spoiling the kids.

How many news stations report real life world events to provide a global overview?It News are full of celebrity gossip, murders , violence reporting, or other disasters. Plus some biased politics depending on which channel.

The US education system is set so students drop out when it's "too hard" and doing something easier. Very few learn other languages to make themselves more employable and low "menial" job workers will rarely leave where they live.

And, let's face it not everybody is bright , but they all do have exaggerated expectations of what they should have in life.
??????????????????????????????????
Trump met with industry leaders on Wednesday that want de-regulation...that will permit: deleting any minimum wage...lowering the work age to 16....making it a six day week....deleting workman's compensation....deleting any kind of discrimination in hiring laws....Trump said "sure...why not?"
 
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__________________
Trump's EPA will Permit: dumping of lead in nearby streams...unlimited smoke stack emissions...etc...because this is what they voted for.
[doublepost=1489097949][/doublepost]
??????????????????????????????????
Trump met with industry leaders on Wednesday that want de-regulation...that will permit: deleting any minimum wage...lowering the work age to 16....making it a six day week....deleting workman's compensation....deleting any kind of discrimination in hiring laws....Trump said "sure...why not?"

Very funny. I guess we'll see.

BTW: Minimum wage is not in Washington's hands.
 
Building a large scale plant in the US requires 100's if not 1000's of engineers, the US just doesn't have them.

Congrats to people on their SJW degrees, I'm sure the pay and befits are great at Starbucks and all, but maybe people should have put in some work, and gone into a field that is needed in the real world.

I'm wondering if someone pays people to spread this crud. Companies aren't willing to pay engineers in the US is about the only valid arguement here. Also robots are going to be taking most of these Chinese "engineer" jobs soon.
 
Apple hardly ever takes less margins. Ignore the USB C cable price adjustments.

Apple will raise prices. Look at iPad prices. Went up. Look at iPhone prices. Went up. Look at MBP prices. Went up.

What BS are you talking about?
Last years iPad Air 2 is now $399, same cost as always for cellular (+$129)

New iPad Pro 9.7 has several features not on standard iPad, for $100 more, starting at $599.

Standard iPhone 7 (not plus) is the same price as last years iPhone 6.

So you are wrong on 2 counts, maybe all 3 (did not check MBP price history)
[doublepost=1489103470][/doublepost]
Puke.
Lol, yeah- run that by Jony!

Plus.... you're just making this stuff up!
Where's the red, white, & blue Chevy trucks that cost the same as a Mercedes but people are buying them out of national "loyalty"? Oh, they don't exist? Oh, because you're full of it?
Ok.

Then you are proof that Trump is wrong, that people don't care where its made, so long as it is cheap.
 
Because Americans think they are the only country in the world? I have no idea to tell you the truth. American nationalism is getting worse and worse though.
I don't know where you are located but this is self evident to everyone BUT Americans.....Arrogance is the attitude and we have the most Arrogant President in US History.....
[doublepost=1489105027][/doublepost]
Foxconn would also have to deal with all those pesky environmental hurdles foisted on them by the EPA.

{EPA being slowly dismantled}

Pre-industrial devolution it is. :D
Trump will do what Reagan did...pump up an already bloated DOD with more bombers, more fighter jets, more Navy ships etc...this will create jobs in CA and Virginia and blow up the Debt...except Ryan and the other Defecit Hawks have forgotten about the National Debt now that Obama is gone.
[doublepost=1489105124][/doublepost]
Very funny. I guess we'll see.

BTW: Minimum wage is not in Washington's hands.
BTW...there IS a Federal Minimum wage and Trump and Ryan can pass a bill to say that the Fed Min Wage is the only law and cut the minimum wage to $4.00 per hour..
 
BTW...there IS a Federal Minimum wage and Trump and Ryan can pass a bill to say that the Fed Min Wage is the only law and cut the minimum wage to $4.00 per hour..

Yes, I mentioned $ 7.25. It doesn't matter what Washington does.
I doubt they could overrule all the states which are already at or on the way to $ 15.00 plus.
The legal fights would take centuries.
 
The AS education is geared towards trades and actually working with and fixing equipment. The BS education is geared towards theory and in many cases, to prepare you for a Masters. On top of that, you lose 2 years of productive career time, and pay directly and/or through taxes for a lot more expensive education.

Direct example. A BS in EE takes at least two classes in Maxwell's equations plus the vector calculus that goes into that. In High School you'd have to have taken calculus then. Then you take a whole years in transistor circuits, where you do transistor-level design of amplifiers and things like Norton and Thevenin equivalents. And remember, to get into college, you have to take several years of a foreign language, and in college there's a one year requirement of that.

What does this have to do with operating the thin-film deposition equipment for a display screen? Nothing. The University/BS degree that is so "essential" consists almost solely of skills which are simply not in demand for these manufacturing jobs, and in fact not in demand for a large number of design jobs either.

Another example: you want a EE to build you a circuit board. That sounds reasonable. Where do they learn how to do this in a University education? If you are a computer engineer or you opt to, you take one semester on a final project where you do this. Basically 80% of college BSEE graduates have zero circuit board experience, and those who do have done one in their life.

OK, fair points, but are we producing enough people with AS degrees to staff a large scale Fab?
 
Yes..Jweinraub...it is and its going to get MUCH worse.....he will go to war to unite the nation ...just like G.W. Bush and his father Bush I.
[doublepost=1489107053][/doublepost]
Yes, I mentioned $ 7.25. It doesn't matter what Washington does.
I doubt they could overrule all the states which are already at or on the way to $ 15.00 plus.
The legal fights would take centuries.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You forget that 70% of US governors are Republican...it will be sold to them that cutting the minimum wage to $4 will create jobs.....
 
What BS are you talking about?
Last years iPad Air 2 is now $399, same cost as always for cellular (+$129)

New iPad Pro 9.7 has several features not on standard iPad, for $100 more, starting at $599.

Standard iPhone 7 (not plus) is the same price as last years iPhone 6.

So you are wrong on 2 counts, maybe all 3 (did not check MBP price history).

What BS are you talking about? Who the F cares about last generation iPad's price? Of course Apple drops prices on older junk.

New generation iPads have risen in price before. Did you forget?
The new MBP had significant price increases. Did you forget?
The 7 plus actually had a price increase compared to the previous model. Did you forget?
 
He loves western created technologies that we've giving him and cares to offer nothing back. I'm not interested in any relations with china, only ending them and taking back what is ours.
 
What BS are you talking about? Who the F cares about last generation iPad's price? Of course Apple drops prices on older junk.

New generation iPads have risen in price before. Did you forget? < Always $499 every year, look it up
The new MBP had significant price increases. Did you forget? < never followed, how could I forgot what I never knew?
The 7 plus actually had a price increase compared to the previous model. Did you forget? < again, wrong.

inline answers.
 
Yes..Jweinraub...it is and its going to get MUCH worse.....he will go to war to unite the nation ...just like G.W. Bush and his father Bush I.
[doublepost=1489107053][/doublepost]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You forget that 70% of US governors are Republican...it will be sold to them that cutting the minimum wage to $4 will create jobs.....

They can make it $ 1.00 and the states will not oblige. For example in NJ and NY we are on the way to $ 15.00. That will not be dialed back.

Nobody is dumb enough to believe that a low Federal rate will create jobs and certainly not for Americans. The majority of low wage labor in this country is mostly performed by immigrants. Legal and illegal.

Plus, there are studies where higher min wages creates jobs. I personally can not follow those studies as whatever increases will have to balloon out some place else.

You pay a McDonald worker another $ 1 an hour and the BigMac price goes up.
 
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New generation iPads have risen in price before. Did you forget? < Always $499 every year, look it up
One version of the ipad mini did see a price increase once. Did you forget?

The new MBP had significant price increases. Did you forget? < never followed, how could I forgot what I never knew?
So you're speaking out of sheer ignorance then?

The 7 plus actually had a price increase compared to the previous model. Did you forget? < again, wrong.
Did you forget the $20 price increase on the iPhone 7 Plus. Talking out of sheer ignorance yet again?

Those tactics include one outright price increase. This year's 5.5-inch screen iPhone 7 Plus costs $20 more than last year's 6S Plus. But Apple (AAPL, +0.17%) also made a few more subtle moves that will have the effect of nudging buyers to spend more.
 
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