Pretty neat teardown of the Neo done by two Framework (and former Apple) employees. Co-founder Nirav Patel narrates the video and discusses the differences between the Neo and the Framework 12, which costs around $1k. He marveled at the unique industrial design that moved the battery to the center and the touchpad/speakers to under the palmrest along with some added weight ballast. One thing he didn't talk about much - yet is plainly obvious from the start - is how large the motherboard or logic board and the cooling system are on the Framework, much like any other Intel-based or AMD-based laptop. I sense a bit of envy in the narration, since Framework has no choice but to use a lot of (good quality) off-the-shelf parts whereas Apple can do an almost complete soup-to-nuts design and somehow make it cheaper in the process. To paraphase Patel, you could fit five of the Apple logic board inside the space for the Framework mainboard.
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Framework does a Neo teardown/comparison to FW 12
- Thread starter mlayer
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maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
Interesting, Personally I think a 12" laptop is way too small, but that's me.
Seems like the framework price quickly goes up once you add memory, and storage. I'm not really sold on the framework model, even though it can run linux
Seems like the framework price quickly goes up once you add memory, and storage. I'm not really sold on the framework model, even though it can run linux
It's a neat model. Unfortunately it's not a budget model as a 12" screen might lead one to believe. When it was released the reviews pointed that out. You can spec it out now as I did a few minutes ago. A measly i3 (13th gen) with Win 11 Home, 8 GB RAM and a 500 GB SSD runs you nearly $1000. Framework isn't even in the same league as the Neo, and there's no way to drive down that cost especially in 2026.
maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
I was playing with the configuration and maybe its how I did it, but the 600 price went higher because I didn't realize I needed to add ram, and storage (and edited my post considering that)
Overall i think the Neo is a more polished product that is ready to meet people's needs at a low cost
Framework is junk only held up by Linus Tech Tips as an investor. Laptops are clunky, parts are outdated, very expensive, and plays to the repairability superiority crowd. A DIY 12" with Intel i3, 8gb ram, 500gb ssd, and a few expansion cards almost $900...again that's DIY! GTFO.
Dirk Pieters
macrumors 6502
I looked at the Framework hardware being tempted to dabble in Linux a bit. Something as plastic-y as a Framework should be a cheap impulse buy but the truth is that they get very expensive very fast if you add memory and storage.
As for the able-to-upgrade-thing … who even does that? It’s a small niche of tech nerds who then need to be vocal about it.
As for the able-to-upgrade-thing … who even does that? It’s a small niche of tech nerds who then need to be vocal about it.
maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
Tech influencers are very excited about the mission of Framework and have been pushing how great they are - to an extent I agree.
If you look at any framework video you see they spent a lot of time, money and research to design each component to be easily replaceable. The downside is that R&D wasn't cheap and it that shows up in the price tag of each computer they sell
Those are some pretty large assumptions that could be argued into the ground. Similar type of mentality for people buying EVs assuming no maintenance and “clean” energy which is far from the truth.
maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
Non-framework laptops win economics and cost of ownership to be sure, because one company doing something completely different then the industry is going to be expensive, but environmenal impact? How so. Unlike nearly every other laptop, you can upgrade any and all compoments thus lengthening the laptop's life span. Want a new GPU, put one in, CPU? Same thing. Want different ports, replace it.
I'm not a fan of the framework, but it shows how far the industry has moved to making laptops disposable appliance that we use for a few years and replace - that's the one that is causing the ewaste not the framework
1096bimu
macrumors 6502
Because what do you think happens to the old parts you take off from your framework after an upgrade? It becomes e-waste, they are useless by themselves. You can of course try to sell them but they are worth next to nothing, upgrading a framework is usually more expensive than selling your old MacBook and buying an upgraded one.
On the other hand a functional old MacBook will always be useful to someone somewhere.
There really is no maintenance on MacBooks, it's not an assumption. Also unlike EVs, they depreciate much slower than the competition because everyone knows they are reliable and no maintenance.
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Framework's operation is great on principle. In practice it comes up against the harsh realities of market economics. It simply doesn't scale well. There's no way Framework can properly compete with the buying power of Dell/HP/Lenovo let alone Apple, who are all more driven by TCO per unit than customer flexibility, which is Framework's MO.
Shirley Marquez
macrumors newbie
The amount of DIY you do is minimal; it's plugging in the RAM and SSD, and the expansion modules. It's even easier on the Framework 12 because of the use of pogo pins; you don't have to worry about disconnecting the keyboard as you had to on the Framework 13. The pre-built systems cost more than DIY because of the Windows license, not because you're getting charged more for the parts; they're actually a bit cheaper than buying all of the same parts from Framework, but you don't get much flexibility and you can sometimes get RAM and storage for less money from other suppliers. (Right now, all bets are off.)
Framework systems were never cheap; they're about buying a system that will last, not one that will be inexpensive at the start. Unfortunately, the recent shortages of RAM and SSDs have driven up their prices a lot, because a small company like Framework doesn't have the purchasing clout of Apple or Dell. The outdated parts in Intel-based Framework 13 systems are also in part a result of that lack of clout; Framework is six months behind in launching systems that use new Intel processors because Intel gives priority to its big OEMs. Small companies like Framework can't get the parts until much later. They don't have that problem with AMD-based systems because AMD considers them a strategic partner. (The older parts in the Framework 12 are about cost reduction.)
The Neo is repairable by Apple standards. It got a score of 6 out of 10 from iFixit, which is better than any Apple product has done for years. But Framework has redefined repairability. The Framework 13 got a 10 out of 10, and I would argue that the score was too LOW because it not only allows you to replace everything, it makes it EASY. The Framework 12 (also 10/10) redefined repairability AGAIN by replacing most of the fiddly little connectors with pogo pins and with blade connectors for the battery. Lenovo recently released a laptop that got a 10 score, and bravo to them for doing it, but if that's a 10 a Framework should be an 11.
The Neo also locks you into macOS. Running any other OS (Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, etc) on an Apple Silicon system is difficult at best, and it's not yet supported at all on the Neo. (I'm sure that Linux will be eventually, but your distro choices will be limited. You could use virtualization, but that's not going to be a good experience with only 8 GB RAM.) Framework gives you choices; just about anything other than macOS will run, and Framework officially supports some popular Linux distributions.
I freely acknowledge that the Neo is a much better deal right now if it fits your needs. A comparable Framework will cost more and have a slower CPU. But the Neo won't grow with you. If you need 16 GB RAM or a terabyte or more of storage in a year or two, you will have to move on from your Neo and buy something else. (On the bright side, Apple systems hold their value well, so you should be able to resell the Neo and keep it out of landfill.) If you need those upgrades to a Framework 12, you can just go out and buy them and install them in ten minutes. (It really is easy, though for the storage upgrade you'll also need a way to move your data from the old SSD to the new one so it will take a bit longer.) It's a different business model and a different relationship between you and your computer.
I applaud what Apple has accomplished with the Neo. It gives them an authentic entry level laptop, something they have not had for many years. But I also applaud what Framework has accomplished.
(Disclosure: I own a Framework 13. The only Apple laptop I currently have is an ancient MacBook Pro from 2009; I considered adding a Neo to my collection, but decided that I just couldn't live with 8 GB RAM. One of my desktop computers is a 2019 21" iMac.)
David Hassholehoff
macrumors regular
This, however, is a ridiculous argument. A repairable and/or upgradeable device will at the point of repair or upgrade produce one component of e-waste. If it is an upgrade, you can reuse the component. Otherwise it will be recycled. An irreparable device, however, will produce an entire device of components of e-waste, at the first point of failure. At that point the entire device will have to be recycled.
Ideally, there should be a standard for laptop frames like we have for desktops. I would happily use the same aluminium frame for three decades if I could. I would like to upgrade CPU more often than I would like to upgrade display. But as stated before, market and manufacturing economics get in the way. Consumers typically want thin and light more than they want upgradeable and repairable.
I, (like most people here, I would imagine) view this as the Framework locking me out of macOS. The operating system is largely why I stick with Apple's devices.
I like the principles behind Framework. But using anything but macOS for desktop computing is at best inconvenient and often infuriating. Every time I am forced to interact with Windows I am fighting the operating system. Every time I use GNU there is 40 hours of maintenance and tinkering before work can be done. (BSD is of course flawless, as long as you don't need a GUI.)
(This is also how I feel about the iPhone. Locked in not so much by Apple as by the рiss poor quality of the alternatives.)
Shirley Marquez
macrumors newbie
Apple could choose to make a version of macOS available for other devices. They do not. Therefore, Apple is the responsible party. Framework would happily support macOS if there were a version that ran on their computers. They don't even have the option of making computers that would run it; Apple doesn't allow that.
Aside from having no choice in the system's original use, it also locks Apple devices out of a meaningful afterlife as servers or other utility applications. macOS isn't designed for that, and the support lifetime isn't long enough. For that you want to run Linux or one of the open BSD systems; that's nearly impossible on Apple Silicon devices, and the inability to upgrade RAM further limits their usefulness.
For the record, I find macOS infuriating. Things like the single menu bar at the top of the screen; that made sense on beige toasters but it doesn't scale well to larger displays. Or not shutting down applications when I close their last window like every other OS does; I have to remember the extra step of visiting that too-distant menu to close them.
The integration with iDevices might be nice... if I owned any. But I refuse to buy computing devices where Cupertino has absolute veto power over how I can use them. For example, I can't have a web browser that isn't Safari. (There are things that don't LOOK like Safari, but they have to use Apple's HTML and Javascript engines so they're really Safari.) I can't have an app that creates executable code, so no programming environments other than things that run under Apple's Javascript. And if it the app offends Apple's sensibilities, it's out. (I'm not interested in porn apps, for example, but I resent that I CAN'T have them if I wanted.)
If Google ever completely locks down Android, I will convert my devices to Linux the next day. But again, iDevices don't even offer that option.
Aside from having no choice in the system's original use, it also locks Apple devices out of a meaningful afterlife as servers or other utility applications. macOS isn't designed for that, and the support lifetime isn't long enough. For that you want to run Linux or one of the open BSD systems; that's nearly impossible on Apple Silicon devices, and the inability to upgrade RAM further limits their usefulness.
For the record, I find macOS infuriating. Things like the single menu bar at the top of the screen; that made sense on beige toasters but it doesn't scale well to larger displays. Or not shutting down applications when I close their last window like every other OS does; I have to remember the extra step of visiting that too-distant menu to close them.
The integration with iDevices might be nice... if I owned any. But I refuse to buy computing devices where Cupertino has absolute veto power over how I can use them. For example, I can't have a web browser that isn't Safari. (There are things that don't LOOK like Safari, but they have to use Apple's HTML and Javascript engines so they're really Safari.) I can't have an app that creates executable code, so no programming environments other than things that run under Apple's Javascript. And if it the app offends Apple's sensibilities, it's out. (I'm not interested in porn apps, for example, but I resent that I CAN'T have them if I wanted.)
If Google ever completely locks down Android, I will convert my devices to Linux the next day. But again, iDevices don't even offer that option.
David Hassholehoff
macrumors regular
All true. But let's not pretend macOS would be even remotely as good if Apple were to generalise it for generic hardware. And if you think "they don't need to do squat, just release it" that is unrealistic. If you ever ran macOS x86-64 on unsupported hardware, you know it is a laborious task. It requires fiddling to setup and constant fiddling to maintain. A big contributing reason for Windows being ...sһit is that it is so unoptimised. Corporations like DELL, hp or Framework would love to sell laptops with macOS, sure. But they would need to actually support it. Make drivers available, starting with writing them, ensure the model works as intended for at least the very basic tasks. Even if Apple would just stop prohibiting and simply permit the use of macOS on other hardware, it is just not a viable option for a vendor.
Asahi Linux is available for M1 and M2 devices. The first M1 devices are still supported by Apple, so most users aren't looking for alternative OS yet. I expect that support will increase dramatically when the first M1 devices are deprecated by Apple.
I get it. I find redundant menu bars infuriating because it wastes vertical space and monitors are always short on that.
On the browser front, the EU and Japan is coming down on Apple on that point. Though I would also prefer to get Firefox with Gecko straight from the App Store.
True. Though, I would rather not use a smartphone at all than use Android.🫣
Cannot you use another browser such ad Duck Duck Go as an alternative to Safari ?
maflynn
macrumors Broadwell
Asahi linux is not a feasible alternative, not when it cannot even run on current hardware.
This is one of the major advantages of macos. Apple can tune/tweak both the hardware and software to work the best possible way.
Why would they do that?
Do you know they tried that back in the ancient times of Apple, and it almost killed them. There were licensed Mac Clones that were cheaper and better then apple hardware. People stopped buying Macs and were buying the mac clones instead.
Apple is not a software company, they're a hardware company. Allowing macos on other hardware does nothing to their bottom line, it just dilutes what makes apple special