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Yeah, that whole Norman invasion thing seems pretty hard to get over for some people.

As far as the DRM restrictions being lifted goes, I think we have to wait and see what actually gets passed through.

For our French-speaking readers, here's an article in Le Monde about global licensing and the Dadvsi law, with some links to other discussions: link.
 
I hope this passes, and I hope it's applied to all digital content providers -- not just iTunes. DRM restrictions only punish the honest people that pay for their music. Illegal file swappers will go on getting their free tunes elsewhere.
 
Lobbying effort from Cable Co.?

The business of DRM is mostly made of TV programs encripted to be casted to set-top boxes (satellite or cable, with box/customer ID) and of customer data/ID on SIM card to be "played" on mobile phones.

Apple DRM/ITMS is relatively small business compared to the above. But it is growing and menacing the traditional TV companies switching to digital and wishing to mantain an advantage also in the TV digital area, against outsiders like Apple.

So the French news are meaningful ONLY if they provide that all DRM implementations to be legally cracked, including:
- Cable TV DRM and encription, based on the assumption that satellite programs playback cannot be limited to one brand only (the Satellite/Cable TV company) set-top boxes;
- DSL TV programming, based on the assumption that large Telecoms or DRM providers related digital TV programming playback cannot be limited to one single Operative System based PC or other brand specific devices;
- mobile phones SIM cards, to be used on all mobile phones, and not only on your carrier mobile phone.

If the above are not included in the new French law, then the outcome may only be a hit towards TV business outsiders like Apple in favour of Cable TV, Satellite TV and Telco/Mobile companies, whishing to reduce the impact of a, so far, highly successful innovative model like Apple ITMS, already moving into the TV arena.

I will further investigate the above possibility.

Gerardo Greco
Attorney at Law
greco@mclink.it
 
Apparently the French have just solved this problem and it is NOT going to happen

Just posted on The Register:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/14/france_p2p_plan_fails/


"Blanket digital licence fails in France
Carry on pirates, carry on DRM
By Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco
Published Tuesday 14th March 2006 09:56 GMT
Get breaking Reg news straight to your desktop - click here to find out how

Under heavy pressure from the French government, the country's parliament has voted against introducing the world's first blanket licence for sharing digital media. A section that would have permitted internet users to freely exchange copyrighted material, effectively legitimizing file sharing, and hastening the demise of digital rights management (DRM) software, had passed an earlier reading in a vote last December."
 
elmimmo said:
Not gonna happen with current EU laws. Cracking anticopy measures is as illegal as the DCMA says is, coming down from general EU directive (i.e. european law). It is not up to France not to comply with it.

It'd be nice if someone more in the know would enlighten us regarding how accurate this is.

OK, I'll have a go. I work for a French DRM company in France....

Basically, the deal is that you aren't allowed to bypass DRM software, full stop. EU Law, and hence binding for France. Sooo, if you are a company selling DRMed material in France, and the consumers have to be able to copy your stuff to any other format (due to the proposed law), but they themselves aren't allowed to do it (due to the EU law), the only other solution is for the DRM material supplier to provide a way of doing this copying (hence defeating the DRM anyway....)

Of course, Apple already complies with this. You can take any iTunes-bought, Fair Play-protected music, burn it to CD, and make as many copies as you like, and convert to whatever format you like. No worries.

As others have noted though, this law would kill the subscription-based concept in France (no big deal IMHO).
 
boncellis said:
I believe you can burn purchased tracks to CD, then import them in iTunes in whatever format you wish. It's an extra step...


Yup, and if the French law had passed (I understand it is now DOA), pointing this out is all that Apple would have had to have done to show that their software were in legal compliance to be "open".

In the meantime, Microsoft's DRM'ed WMA format probably would have gotten screwed.


-hh

PS: I'm really disappointed in all of the anti-French comments. Grow up, children.
 
I lived in France. The French and its government are overbearing idiots, and this is just one example of why their economy is in the dumps.
 
macnulty said:
Can we now expect the French to open the production of Champaigne to regions outside of France? BTW "methode champaigne" does not count.

Since "Champagne" is named after the region in which it's made, why would you want to mislead consumers by using this name outside of that region? Even if you grew a nice sparkling white wine in the south of France, you couldn't give it the name "Champagne." That'd be like making a red wine in California and calling it a Bordeaux. Or making a Dell and calling it a Mac.

I know you're just kidding anyway with your analogy, but I wanted to clarify this, to make sure we're not comparing Apples and grapes.
 
Steak said:
Why is everyone so glad about this? The only reason these record labels give apple such open access is the digital rights management. If apple does not shut down the french iTunes music store, the labels will pull out.

So great, now people would be able to convert their files to any format, bypassing copy protections. The labels would leave, the store would have no music, and iTunes store is dead. Is that a good thing? I don't see how.

So, they would need to add more freedoms to the downloaded music, but as a result there will be no music available. Great job!

People don't have a RIGHT to download music. It is a service, offered by a company, which one can accept or not accept. They have no obligation to follow yours, ours, or France's rules. Take it or leave it, that is your choice. Laws like this will ruin the current availability of downloaded music, without a doubt. This is an attack on a company by the french government. No harm to them, since France has no music anymore, other than islamic prayer tunes. They want our stuff for free. Will not happen. If I were Jobs, I would pull the plug on France music store TODAY. I would let the current users know why, and let them bitch out their government. Why is it that socialists think that stealing is perfectly fine as long as it is stealing from a corporation? Stealing is wrong, and their is no way to justify it.

-Chris

Yeah, right. The labels are slowly realizing that digital downloads is the way to the future. If they were to pull out of iTunes, they would lose a substantial chunk of income. It ain't gonna happen.

People don't have a right to download music but they do have a right to purchase music that isn't confined to a single platform. Of course Apple allows a person to burn music to a cd and then reimport it to any platform they desire. But, it's complicated and quality suffers as a result.

Since you're obviously a French hater, the rest of your argument deserves no comment whatsoever.


It's always been a matter of time until Apple was forced to open up the iPod to other music suppliers and iTunes to other devices. They are close to having a monopoly on music downloads and monopolies are bad for business. Capitalism run amok helps nobody whereas a limited socialistic approach can help everyone.

What you need is a good course in economics.
 
rcread said:
I lived in France. The French and its government are overbearing idiots, and this is just one example of why their economy is in the dumps.

Wow! That's a really thought provoking comment.

Reading this thread (referenced comment excepted) I was just thinking that MacRumors is much more interesting that other Mac sites where comments reflect French bashing and 'an almost fanatical devotion to the [Apple]... and nice red uniforms!"

btw French customers purchase music from:
iTunes Music Store est géré par iTunes S.à.r.l., numéro d’enregistrement B 101 120. Notre siège social se trouve au iTunes s.à r.l., 8 rue Heinrich Heine, L-1720 Luxembourg.
ecommerce is considered to be consumed where the service is located, and so ecommerce companies locate in Luxembourg to pay the lower VAT rates (15%) instead of higher country rates.
Perhaps the French law won't have any impact at all. After all French customers will simply be able to choose a different country to access iTunes (if apple is forced to remove the link, for example),
 
I miss cassette tapes

Not really, but...

I remember being a kid, sitting in my bedroom with my finger on the record button of my tape-recorder, waiting for Thriller to come on the radio so I could tape it from the beginning (and hope the deejay doesn't talk over it). Or taking an album that I actually paid for and taping songs from it.

Back then you could make your own homemade mix tapes and copy them 20 times for all your friends. But the record companies never threatened us. Of course, we can still use tapes if we want to, but now we've got so much cool stuff to play on.

However, today, with all the quality and convenience of ripping CDs to digital files, I'm sharing less music than ever before. I'm actually less of a threat to the record companies than when I was 12.

The real thing these record companies should be going after are mass-file-sharing platforms and the people sharing on/with them. It's useless to hassle the people that are actually paying for the songs. We're the good guys.

My wife owns a Sony MP3 player and I have an iPod shuffle. I've paid for about a hundred iTunes songs that I can't transfer to her machine (at least, I can't with the tools I have on my computer today -- I guess there must be hack software to do it). And she ordered Sony Connect songs that I can't play on my iPod.

Is it too much to ask to buy music and listen to it on multiple devices? I don't give a toss about France's socialist causes or protectionist laws. I just want to be able to play Public Enemy on two machines!!!
 
I'm glad to see so much support for this law, which I guess I didn't expect here.

This law, and any similar, that allow you to do with the things you own what you please, are the only laws worth having.
 
rebhaf said:
Back then you could make your own homemade mix tapes and copy them 20 times for all your friends. But the record companies never threatened us.

Home_taping_is_killing_music.png


See entry in wikipedia
 
rebhaf said:
Since "Champagne" is named after the region in which it's made, why would you want to mislead consumers by using this name outside of that region? Even if you grew a nice sparkling white wine in the south of France, you couldn't give it the name "Champagne." That'd be like making a red wine in California and calling it a Bordeaux. Or making a Dell and calling it a Mac.

I know you're just kidding anyway with your analogy, but I wanted to clarify this, to make sure we're not comparing Apples and grapes.


Well, yes and no. It is true that the Champagne region of France is the origins of the beverage, however it is as much the rigors and method of production that is the actual beverage. That is why you have "Methode Champagne" and "Champagne", both are sparkling wines made with the same type grape in exactly same way. There is only one difference.
To take it to the absurd, you can say you have Texas Toast and Texas Method Toast.:D
 
rebhaf said:
Since "Champagne" is named after the region in which it's made, why would you want to mislead consumers by using this name outside of that region? Even if you grew a nice sparkling white wine in the south of France, you couldn't give it the name "Champagne." That'd be like making a red wine in California and calling it a Bordeaux. Or making a Dell and calling it a Mac.

I know you're just kidding anyway with your analogy, but I wanted to clarify this, to make sure we're not comparing Apples and grapes.


Well on that basis cheddar cheese should only be named if it was actually made in the Cheddar Gorge region of the UK. Same goes for Cornish pasties, Feta cheese, Kalamata olives..... but all are produced in places that bear no relation to the products origin.
 
Why stop there?
Why not insist that all proprietary software be made available on all platforms? That way it will be manditory that all PC only software be ported to the Mac as well.

Excellent excellent point. It is hipocritical to open up media formats but not software ones. There's really no way around it. With the intel transition, both macs and pc's now use essentially the same hardware, so the hardware/software tie-in arguement no longer holds water.
 
Josh said:
This law, and any similar, that allow you to do with the things you own what you please, are the only laws worth having.

You think by purchasing a song through the iTMS you now own it? Sorry, you don't.
 
Steak said:
Why is everyone so glad about this? The only reason these record labels give apple such open access is the digital rights management. If apple does not shut down the french iTunes music store, the labels will pull out.

So great, now people would be able to convert their files to any format, bypassing copy protections. The labels would leave, the store would have no music, and iTunes store is dead. Is that a good thing? I don't see how.

So, they would need to add more freedoms to the downloaded music, but as a result there will be no music available. Great job!

People don't have a RIGHT to download music. It is a service, offered by a company, which one can accept or not accept. They have no obligation to follow yours, ours, or France's rules. Take it or leave it, that is your choice. Laws like this will ruin the current availability of downloaded music, without a doubt. This is an attack on a company by the french government. No harm to them, since France has no music anymore, other than islamic prayer tunes. They want our stuff for free. Will not happen. If I were Jobs, I would pull the plug on France music store TODAY. I would let the current users know why, and let them bitch out their government. Why is it that socialists think that stealing is perfectly fine as long as it is stealing from a corporation? Stealing is wrong, and their is no way to justify it.

-Chris

That's what I thought....
 
Stella said:
My point is, no music store, no music format should be restricted to a specific music player.

In short, your statement is morally wrong. In length:

You are making a moral judgment on what "should" be based on your opinion and perspective. Fact is, if company A wanted to sell a proprietary music format only compatible with their music player, it's perfectly moral for A to do so. Customer X may very well want to be able to find some music file and put it on his music player - if in doing so he finds that his own music player (not from company A) won't play the music provided from company A, he can go get the music elsewhere, or be a whiner that complains - "I want everybody to provide for me what I want the way I want it."

If you own a nomad or a rio or a sony or other third-rate music player (I speak with bias here due to experience), just because iTMS doesn't sell you music compatible with your device doesn't mean you can force Apple to provide what you want to buy. Rather, take a moment and wonder why you bought that music player and why you don't look to other music stores. Fact is, if there were real and major competitors to iTunes, especially, say, a competitor from the company that made your music player, you'd quit your socialist whining because you'd have an alternative.

So what you're essentially saying is this - "I want Apple to sell me music I can play on my non-Apple device, because I said so." Can't you see that is so juvenile and extremely anti-capitalist? You are essentially trying to dictate exactly how and to whom Apple sells its music. Consider this - Apple makes money by selling iPods and music from iTMS, almost hand in hand, but it is not a monopoly (there are all those other Windows affiliated music sites, if you must resort to such) and it's perfectly legal and moral for them to sell music in a (semi)proprietary format. If Apple only wants to sell music to iPod owners (which is a bit off the mark anyway), they have a right to choose to do so. It is immoral to force people to provide what you want solely on the basis that you want it - if it makes them money, maybe they'll look into it some day...but it's not for you to point a gun to Steve Jobs and force him to provide what you want.

Theoretically, on a 1 to 1 basis, it may make sense for Apple to bend over backwards to comply with your insolent demand - but you should have to pay for the downtime of the music store, the work of the people involved, cost, and a premium to balance the iPod purchase you never made...and you end up paying $376,000 for a 6-track album you could have bought in a store and stuffed into your third-rate media player to begin with. Do you get my point? Apple is not forcing you to want music from the iTMS...if you want it to play on your music player, you could get the music from a variety of providers and you don't need iTunes. If you want it from iTMS, buy an iPod. If you are the kind of person that believes that wanting something and not being able to pay for it justifies expropriation or theft, go ahead and pirate music since you're no better than a mugger or thief.

Stella said:
There is absolutely no difference ( unless you are closed minded, like the majority of users on here ) between digital music and a CD. Just different medium. You would not expect to a DVD not to work in your DVD player purely because you don't own a, say, Sony DVD Player.

This analogy is applies also to digital music - ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE!!!

You demonstrate much immaturity of thought here. Taking the "this whole forum is against me because everyone else is stupid" approach only induces comic laughter towards somebody who is rather arrogant for knowing so little, not pity for a misunderstood minority voice.

Digital music and CD's have plenty of differences, although they are in some ways even more similar than you cared to realize. Like...um, a CD contains digital music. That's right, CDs = digital music. What's this BS about different media?

Want to talk about DVD's? Ever hear of region coding? What about Blu-ray vs HD DVD? Ever try buying a DVD from a foreign country and play it in your ordinary DVD player? Think of the region-free DVD player (of which there are many) as a Creative Nomad that decided to support AAC and came with software to transfer music on your HDD on your computer in AAC form to your Creative Nomad. If you bought a region-limited DVD player, you can't demand the industry to abandon region coding, regardless of whether or not you could go out and buy a region-free player. In the case of the DVD, there is a workaround.

In the case of music files, there are almost no devices factory-built to play every music file type, so you're stuck. So? This is a simple problem of supply and demand. You say you expect all music files to be able to play on your device (hey, you could just buy the CD you know), which is only compatible with some of them. Why don't you write to the manufacurer of your music player and complain? iPod users represent a huge demand for music compatible with the iPod, and Apple supplies it, together with other companies. Supply and demand working perfectly. Compared to that, your demand, the minority demand for iTMS to be compatible with third-party devices at (most likely) a loss to Apple, is insignificant; a waste of time and money. Just because the iTMS is good doesn't make it the only - go elsewhere and enjoy the incompetence of the competition. No monopoly, just one company doing considerably better than the rest combined.
 
Josh said:
I'm glad to see so much support for this law, which I guess I didn't expect here.

This law, and any similar, that allow you to do with the things you own what you please, are the only laws worth having.

Bull. You buy AAC music thru iTMS. AAC music means not the original recording, not a CD itself which can be ripped and put as WMA or WAV or etc, but AAC music compatible with any device that plays AAC files. You don't own the music itself, you own the right and ability to play that music. You are not given the right to ferment wine with your newly bought AAC files, no more than you are given the right to expect AAC files to play on incompatible hardware. If you can find a way to do either, go ahead, nobody's stopping you - in that sense you have always been allowed to do with it what you please, though of course you don't own property rights to the music itself. However, you must realize what exactly you buy when you make a purchase through the iTMS - AAC files. This is not hidden or unknown or anything. The purchase does not assume that you will even play the music - it assumes only that you wanted the AAC file and was willing to pay for it. The mainstream reason to want an AAC file is to play it on AAC compatible devices like the iPod or in iTunes, which explains why iTMS is in business. You are basically guaranteed that the AAC file will play on the AAC compatible device, and vice versa. Purchasing an AAC file does not mean purchasing music in digital form that will play on any device you wish, by definition. You simply haven't bought something you can "do with it what you please." If you want to buy music files in some universal format, tough luck - you won't get it from iTMS, end of story, unless Apple decides to. You can try to force people to provide what you want, but I guarantee you that they won't, unless they find it profitable to do so.

In short, you don't buy an FM only radio and demand that it play AM radio waves just because you want it. No, you pay for it if it is available (i.e., buy an FM/AM radio). If not, there either is not enough demand for such and/or nobody is providing it, plain and simple. You don't tell all the AM waves to switch to FM because you are the Almightly Lord Twit.
 
rebhaf said:
Not really, but...

I remember being a kid, sitting in my bedroom with my finger on the record button of my tape-recorder, waiting for Thriller to come on the radio so I could tape it from the beginning (and hope the deejay doesn't talk over it). Or taking an album that I actually paid for and taping songs from it.

Back then you could make your own homemade mix tapes and copy them 20 times for all your friends. But the record companies never threatened us. Of course, we can still use tapes if we want to, but now we've got so much cool stuff to play on.

However, today, with all the quality and convenience of ripping CDs to digital files, I'm sharing less music than ever before. I'm actually less of a threat to the record companies than when I was 12.

The real thing these record companies should be going after are mass-file-sharing platforms and the people sharing on/with them. It's useless to hassle the people that are actually paying for the songs. We're the good guys.

My wife owns a Sony MP3 player and I have an iPod shuffle. I've paid for about a hundred iTunes songs that I can't transfer to her machine (at least, I can't with the tools I have on my computer today -- I guess there must be hack software to do it). And she ordered Sony Connect songs that I can't play on my iPod.

Is it too much to ask to buy music and listen to it on multiple devices? I don't give a toss about France's socialist causes or protectionist laws. I just want to be able to play Public Enemy on two machines!!!

This is one of the more sensible posts, for which I'm thankful. I think you summarized the basic response to the limits of music file formats, which is to feel like you should be able to play the music on multiple devices just like you can a CD, which we are used to.

You ask if it is too much to ask to buy music and listen to it on multiple devices. No, it isn't. You can buy CD's, in fact. But, unfortunately for you and your wife, your music stores sell you proprietary formats. You've got to stop a minute though. Could you buy the songs you both want on CD and then transfer it to both devices? Sure. When you buy a CD, it comes with that capability. When you buy music from those stores you use, you are not buying CD's (and certainly not CD quality) - you pay for a specific form of the music designed to play only on devices compatible with that form, in a way more limited than the CD. You could hope that some day it is profitable for some or all companies to market over the internet electronic versions of the CD, but there's no justification for you to demand that such is provided for you based on your want. Plus, the proprietary music file formats are not really for security in the end either - but for profit (think about the iTMS + iPod combo). They're not "hassling" you as if you'd steal music, but rather, making a profit their way.

Personally, I hate Sony. Reason #1 is that their products are more often than not, overpriced mediocrities. Reason #2 is that they come up with umpteen proprietary formats for anything they can hope to get away with. You can't use a SanDisk card, you need a Sony Memory Stick. You can buy UMD's (universal media disks which are not universal at all) that play movies on a PSP, but they're the exact same movies available on DVD - why even bother selling UMD movies, which then end up costing a lot to compensate for their unpopularity. If you buy a piece of Sony hardware, you need peripherals and software from Sony and nobody else, to exaggerate just a bit. My point is, I never buy anything Sony. But it must work for them, because they continue to do so. Similarly, Apple's iTMS must be working for them too, or they'd go out of business. Might they make more money if they were a source of music for all music players? Maybe, but I doubt it, because of the way the iTMS + iPod combo is set up.

Bottom line is that when your wife buys her music, she doesn't pay for something that is guaranteed to play on your iPod, and vice versa. Look for mp3 files or CD's that are compatible with both devices and buy those instead, if you want it so badly, at least until it is standardized, if ever.
 
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