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Er.. what does the States lead the world in these days? Violent crime? Consumer debt? Low educational attainment? School massacres? Bombing far off countries?

Well, you DO spend more on healthcare than anyone... too bad most of that goes on giving every child ritalin so their parents can watch a 100" TV in peace and every mopey teen gets prozac on top and drug cocktails get funnelled into the clinically obese... while millions have little access to good healthcare. France, Spain, Italy, Germany, the UK, Canada, Australia and Japan all have far higher life expectancy, dude.

Still, at least you have fuh-ree-dum and liberdee, which is why you have more intelligence agencies than any other nation spying on you and an Orwellian 'department of homeland security'.

I'd sooner put up with a few strikes than the American way.

Get a passport. See the world. USA isn't Kazakhstan but there are dozens of places just as good and a fair few that are demonstrably better.

Could not of said it better myself.
 
I'm talking about the US winning without the aid of the UK.

I'm not enough of a history buff to say anything about Australia in WWII... and though I took an Eastern Asian Studies class in which we talked about some wars between Japan and China, I can't think of anything specific... IDK if the class even covered stuff newer than the 1800s...

When you said "Didn't the US win on the Asian front of WWII without assistance?" I didn't understand the implicit qualification of UK assistance. I think the UK was engaging Japan mostly in Burma.
 
Wow...so many idealogical americans claiming to have knowledge of what makes a country work. I know the following will be flamed, but I thought a few things needed pointing out to some of the news channel educated professors in here...

1) Unions, and better employee working conditions and such.

It's not unreasonable for employees to have good reward and job benefits for their time and effort. It seems that under the american system, employees are as disposable and replaceable as machines, and treated about the same.

Of course owner's should get the biggest share of the profits of the business, because they hold the biggest risk, however they are not alone responsible for the business success, and couldn't do it by themselves. (i won't even mention the disproportionate risk/reward of executives...)

I think that all of the american's in this thread should be aware that the viewpoint that employees aren't entitled to any more is false. There is a spectrum of worker entitlements, and revolutions always happened when it goes too far in one of the directions, but the capitalist forces always push it back there as far as they can...

We live in societies, not economies...

2) Europe is full of socialists and is a generally rubbish place.

It seems that 'socialist' is a word with only negative connotations in the US. Which humorously highlights how a country so preoccupied with freedom of speech can only think in simple ideologies, choking freedom of thought.

Socialism is a perfectly reasonable base for governance of a country. But the socialist references that right-wing americans often refer to are extreme cases, and are flawed as any extreme system is (*cough* unregulated capitalism *cough*).

Also, if you think that Europe is a rubbish place, I won't further distract you from enjoying your world map which sits between Canada (other side of the Canadian border) and Mexico (other side of the Mexican border).

3) I've also read mention of how Europe is dragging the world's economy e.t.c.

Really? I mean, REALLY?!



As a further point, I feel that I should warn american's of feeling like the american system is obviously superior due to economic wealth of the country. Shortly after the American independence, Adam Smith (check him out) predicted that the United States would become the world's largest economy within 200 years due to the size of their population and the amount of arable land (i.e. resources). My point being that america's economic success is not completely resultant on the political/economic system, so don't one to justify the other...

These people sadly have no clue what they are on about. By pointing these facts out to them will only make them dig down further in their trench of hate and ignorance. They have been programmed at birth to behave in this manner
 
These people sadly have no clue what they are on about. By pointing these facts out to them will only make them dig down further in their trench of hate and ignorance. They have been programmed at birth to behave in this manner

You are so right. In the meantime i will support the french (or any) apple store strikers!
 
Love all the ignoramuses coming out of the woodwork.

Nothing excellent? Except the Statue of Liberty, laws of thermodynamics, the diesel engine...[...]

Diesel engine? I beg your pardon! :eek:

Both combustion engines (Petrol and Diesel) were invented by Germans, just like the automobile which they propel.

I grant you the Bikini though :D
 
No, the benefits I receive today are from doing excellent work and therefore fetching a high market value for my services. I didn't form a mob with my fellow employees to threaten my benefits out of my employer. I EARNED them. Imagine that!
Yeah okay your employer would pay you top dollar because you are just the best ,lol!!!!! Any given opportunity to pay someone less and do what you do your gone.:rolleyes:
 
Opportunity, not causality. The potential to reach superpower status must have already existed, regardless of externalities. In that case why didn't the lack of competition cause Russia, or newly independent countries like India to become superpowers?

Considering we had abundant natural resources + a very robust industry due the war, yes the primary cause was World War I / II.
 
Could not of said it better myself.

LOL, the reason why the European states can spend more money on their internal services is because the good old USA has its military might and back protecting western Europe (NATO). Talk about leeches, how much do you think Germany / Scandinavia / Western Europe spends on its military. Probably a tiny drop.

In addition, healthcare is not FREE, its TAXED. The Danish income tax maxes at 69 PERCENT with a VAT of 25%. Cars are taxed at I believe 100%+. LOL, talk about getting ****ed over. I rather pay for my own insurance than pay tens of thousands more taxes every year.

No thanks.

Imagine we we pulled out all our troops, little Denmark and Sweden will come begging for daddy after Russia says **** it screws them over. Russia already has europe by the balls with its natural gas.
 
Not a big Ron Paul fan, although I find him less loathsome than 'Bamma and Mittens. Of course Mitt will say he disapproves of Obama's monetary policy until he gets into office (he won't), in which case it'll be QE to infinity.

I'm a supporter of free markets, not de-regulation, and letting bad companies and insolvent banks fail as part of a normal economic cycle. We've moved far away from that now, to crony-capitalism.

I'm allergic to conspiracy theories. The Federal Reserve is neither federal, nor a reserve. It's a banking cartel. Check out the story of Jekyll Island and the formation of the FR.

Yes, I happen to agree with most of your points. It's unlikely Romney will be elected. You believe he's flat out lying and actually loves QE. Pretty cynical view. No way to find out since he won't be elected. Obama has a better personality, and that's what counts in elections. :rolleyes:
 
As someone who works 50-60 hours (but I only receive 4 weeks of PTO which is still great) I don't see the issue here. Europe has always been known to have some of the best labor laws and in due some of the best quality of life. I would love to make my salary and only work 35 hours a week w/ free healthcare. As it turns out I spend so much time at work I have no personal life, and in turn it effects my family life.

There are millions of Americans in my same boat, corporate greed will always be a issue in America. I always envied the work life balance that a lot of European countries promote , unfortunately corporate America in the states will never allow this

Why do you think Greece is bankrupt? In the long run this socialist model doesn't work. Sounds great, but doesn't work long term.
 
the thinking trap

I think there are those on here who have intellectualized the world's problems to the point of impracticality.

Pinguo, I commend you for reading and educating yourself as to the differing viewpoints in the world, and Lilo, I think you think you've read these. But I fear the lack of perspective you criticize in others is evident in your own writing. Nothing is as clear-cut as we'd like and we create a lot of false dichotomies to make our points and win opinions. In my experience living in 4 different countries (which, admittedly, is not very many), I have to say that there is a lot to admire in the U.S. way of life. Generally, business works better here than in many other places, with less red-tape and classism than exists elsewhere. Pinguo, you may be right that Americans were in the right place at the right time and that they made good use of their forefathers' knowledge to establish this country, but you're wrong in assuming it all derived from then-recent history. The founding fathers studied and attempted to mimic ancient Rome and its city-state-like government while melding that with the governing structure that they were actually a part of at the time to (hopefully) eradicate its imperfections (which still exist, but at least they tried). Americans' push to educate the masses also helped the country to go from upstart revolutionaries to world power within a generation. That doesn't just happen by chance.
 
fair vs. equal

As for the question of equitable redistribution, I think many confuse equal with fair. While they may sometimes be the same, equitable distribution of wealth is by no means fair. Societies that set up the expectation and possibility of success for all are more likely to succeed than those that intend to take from the successful and give it to those who are less successful. If I am going to get the same no matter what I do, what is there to encourage me to do better? Does this mean gov't shouldn't tax the rich or have mechanisms in place to spread the wealth around? Absolutely not. With wealth often comes power and, as we have learned through sad experience, people tend to abuse power. So, government ought to prevent the abuse of power, while simultaneously encouraging innovation, hard-work, and a certain amount of risk taking. People have a tendency to be stupid, so we establish government (and not vice versa, mind you) to regulate our stupidity. The problem comes when we look to government to excuse and foster our stupidity.
 
The French love to strike, under sarkozi it was a weekly occurrence for something to strike. The French soccer team went on strike at the World Cup two years ago.
13 months pay is not that uncommon here. But for "unskilled" labor it's pushing it a bit. You can't find water fountains anywhere in France I don't know why apple store employees should get them.
And give them an extra 75 cents to go buy a baguette.
 
13 months pay is not that uncommon here. But for "unskilled" labor it's pushing it a bit. You can't find water fountains anywhere in France I don't know why apple store employees should get them.

If you're spending a lot of hours on your feet talking to a lot of people in an environment with unreliable air conditioning (based on what someone said earlier), I'd say a water fountain/water cooler is both a reasonable accommodation and will make them more effective.
 
Yeah okay your employer would pay you top dollar because you are just the best ,lol!!!!! Any given opportunity to pay someone less and do what you do your gone.:rolleyes:

You are wrong. It is sad that someone could receive a full education and not understand even the fundamentals of our economic system. Think about what you're saying.

If anyone could do my job, what you said would be true. If the people who can manage to do my job could do it as well as I can and were available for hire, what you said would be true. But neither of those are the case. I am the best person available for my job, and employers are willing to compensate me well because the special skill I provide will produce a greater profit for them than the work that a more mediocre employee would. They make more profit, and I earn more wealth. It is win-win.

Let me give you a real world example. If you own a car dealership, and you need to hire a salesman, which is better:

- three employees making $30k/each who each earn $10K profit every month
- one employee making $120k who earns $50K profit every month

Even though the one expensive employee is four times as expensive as the average employees, he earns five times as much money for your business. It's the same thing for most professionals, and doubly so for people in specialized fields where demand exceeds supply.

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You say I deserve what I earn. I say you deserve what you get.

Of course, how ridiculous of me to think that I should have any control over my own life and reap the rewards of my own work.

I'm hoping it comes soon (maybe in the next 50 years?) Unfortunately, when that day comes, you still won't get it.

I wonder what you mean by that. No need to beat around the bush, tell us what you truly believe.
 
LOL, the reason why the European states can spend more money on their internal services is because the good old USA has its military might and back protecting western Europe (NATO). Talk about leeches, how much do you think Germany / Scandinavia / Western Europe spends on its military. Probably a tiny drop.

In addition, healthcare is not FREE, its TAXED. The Danish income tax maxes at 69 PERCENT with a VAT of 25%. Cars are taxed at I believe 100%+. LOL, talk about getting ****ed over. I rather pay for my own insurance than pay tens of thousands more taxes every year.

No thanks.

Imagine we we pulled out all our troops, little Denmark and Sweden will come begging for daddy after Russia says **** it screws them over. Russia already has europe by the balls with its natural gas.

The USA military might chooses to be in Europe. I think you will find that western Europe can actually defend itself very well, if it stops playing in the sands of other countries with the USA.

I know healthcare is taxed

I live in western Europe, so don't need economic lessons from you buddy.

France has a great healthcare system, so I'm OK paying high taxes. Not paying out for a healthcare system that ranks below 30
 
Eh, youth unemployment is close to 25% in France, so I think there are plenty of kids at loose ends over there on the proverbial sidewalk. Not quite the society-destabilizing 50% in Greece or Spain, but still, pretty bad.

French citizens in such an economic position are provided with an apartment.

The USA looks like a third world country that has been invaded by the Pentagon.

Green zones. No Go zones. Nowhere zones.

Paramilitary police in Kevlar with assault weapons and armoured vehicles just a phone call away.
 
LOL, the reason why the European states can spend more money on their internal services is because the good old USA has its military might and back protecting western Europe (NATO). Talk about leeches, how much do you think Germany / Scandinavia / Western Europe spends on its military. Probably a tiny drop.

In addition, healthcare is not FREE, its TAXED. The Danish income tax maxes at 69 PERCENT with a VAT of 25%. Cars are taxed at I believe 100%+. LOL, talk about getting ****ed over. I rather pay for my own insurance than pay tens of thousands more taxes every year.

No thanks.

Imagine we we pulled out all our troops, little Denmark and Sweden will come begging for daddy after Russia says **** it screws them over. Russia already has europe by the balls with its natural gas.

Oh my God that comment is stupid! Supporters of "Team America World Police" has spoken again. Yes you have your military, so what? If there were ever any real threat against Europe, the European union would fend it off together. And I cant seriously believe that you see Russia as a threat?! It isn't the cold war buddy.

And now that you mention Denmark, where I live, and our tax code, you got it wrong. You write as if everybody pays 69% tax. They dont. I make a little over 60.000$ a year and I pay 36% tax, enjoy 6 weeks of payed vacation every year, got my education for free (and got app. 1000$ a month of support from the government, we all do, while i studied, and I dont have to pay that back), get universal healt care without having to worry about preexisting conditions. So you see, we get loads for our tax dollars.

Ill give you one thing though and thats registration price of cars, which is way too high.
 
The USA military might chooses to be in Europe. I think you will find that western Europe can actually defend itself very well, if it stops playing in the sands of other countries with the USA.

I know healthcare is taxed

I live in western Europe, so don't need economic lessons from you buddy.

France has a great healthcare system, so I'm OK paying high taxes. Not paying out for a healthcare system that ranks below 30

You can't be serious with that comment. How fast did Hitler roll through Poland again? Do you not remember your own history. Wasn't France run over in a matter of months? Who bailed you out. Let's be honest.

You do need lessons, unless you live in Germany. Spain is in trouble. France in trouble. Italy in a semi-crisis. Greece is the dumps. Portugal is in trouble. Mrs Merkel is floating the entire European system right now (minus Scandinavia).

I love my country, where everything is cheap, and I pay for what I get, instead of subsidizing for other people. 0% tax on amazon (thank you very much). No wonder that french billionaire wants to become a belgium citizen. :D. The amount of tax you pay is WAY over what Americans shell out for private insurance.

Think about it. Personally, I say lets cut off all foreign aid and withdraw all our troops back home to the states and help with real DEFENSE. We have enough missiles to take out any opposing force multiple times.
 
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Oh my God that comment is stupid! Supporters of "Team America World Police" has spoken again. Yes you have your military, so what? If there were ever any real threat against Europe, the European union would fend it off together. And I cant seriously believe that you see Russia as a threat?! It isn't the cold war buddy.

And now that you mention Denmark, where I live, and our tax code, you got it wrong. You write as if everybody pays 69% tax. They dont. I make a little over 60.000$ a year and I pay 36% tax, enjoy 6 weeks of payed vacation every year, got my education for free (and got app. 1000$ a month of support from the government, we all do, while i studied, and I dont have to pay that back), get universal healt care without having to worry about preexisting conditions. So you see, we get loads for our tax dollars.

Ill give you one thing though and thats registration price of cars, which is way too high.

I don't support US military policing. I want us out of there. Let you guys deal with your own problems. I could care less. My taxes should be to defend America, not have bases around the world.

No offense, if Russia sent its army, little Denmark would be run over in less than week. Let's be realistic. Your army is less than 26,000 men. And most of those are not active duty. Russia has over 1,000,000 active duty alone. This is all theoretical of course, but still Russia is more likely to **** with you guys if America just left. They already own your ass in Natural gas / resources.

Dude I remember paying $6 USD one way on a bus to Copenhagen. Beers were $10. Crappiest food was $8-10. Restaurant meals run over $30. I mean you are talking about a real expensive cost of living there. I spent way too much money in Europe when I studied there.

So you make $60k a year wich translates to $38400 actual cash... factor in your high rent, then your 25% sales tax (LOL). Add up your taxes and you can see your stuff is not "FREE", you pay more than what I paid for my health insurance / tuition. (or your parents did).

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

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French citizens in such an economic position are provided with an apartment.

The USA looks like a third world country that has been invaded by the Pentagon.

Green zones. No Go zones. Nowhere zones.

Paramilitary police in Kevlar with assault weapons and armoured vehicles just a phone call away.

US a 3rd world country. LOL. At least we care about immigration instead of letting them get run over by illegals who DONT SHARE A BORDER WITH YOU. How does France have so many non-french now these days.

French citizens have their apartments due to the HISTORY with their families. In italy, guys don't leave their house until they get MARRIED. Talk about lack of independence.
 
I don't support US military policing. I want us out of there. Let you guys deal with your own problems. I could care less. My taxes should be to defend America, not have bases around the world.

No offense, if Russia sent its army, little Denmark would be run over in less than week. Let's be realistic. Your army is less than 26,000 men. And most of those are not active duty. Russia has over 1,000,000 active duty alone. This is all theoretical of course, but still Russia is more likely to **** with you guys if America just left. They already own your ass in Natural gas / resources.

Dude I remember paying $6 USD one way on a bus to Copenhagen. Beers were $10. Crappiest food was $8-10. Restaurant meals run over $30. I mean you are talking about a real expensive cost of living there. I spent way too much money in Europe when I studied there.

So you make $60k a year wich translates to $38400 actual cash... factor in your high rent, then your 25% sales tax (LOL). Add up your taxes and you can see your stuff is not "FREE", you pay more than what I paid for my health insurance / tuition. (or your parents did).

There is no such thing as a free lunch.


Obviously Denmark has a small army and my argument wasnt for Denmark fighting off Russia, thats just your idea. And that whole debate is just silly.

You are correct in saying Denmark (and other EU countries) are more expensive to live in than the US, but in Denmark people get payed more then you do in the US. The standard of living is higher. Believe or not. And you over simplify when you calculate my salary. There is a lot of different things like tax deductions and so on to consider. And the rent is not always high compared to what we get payed. And dont tell me that it is a bad thing that education is free. If it was free in the US the maybe we wouldnt have to bother with the idiots who watch FOX News (im not saying you do) and believe everything they say.

I have no idea what you pay for your health insurance, but I would NOT want to live in a country where an insurance company is going to try to deny you care if you get sick or deny you insurance if you are sick from the beginning.

The reason we pay more taxes than you do is because we take care of the people who have it the worst. That is called solidarity and to me, it doesnt seem like there is much of that in the US. The attitude seems to be that that it is always your own fault if something goes wrong. Its every man for himself and that is a terrible way to live.

So I would gladly pay more taxes then you to live in a society where the least of us are taken care off, where we are healthier then you and happier.
 
GDP per capita (nominal) in France: $44,008
GDP per capita (nominal) in USA: $48,387

GDP per capita (PPP) in France: 35,194 intl$
GDP per capita (PPP) in USA: 48,442 intl$

Also, by "strong corporations", do you mean "rich corporations"? Like Apple, Microsoft, and Google? Those companies whose stocks dip whenever European countries have banking and debt issues?

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Hey, people who don't work have rights!

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This is a much better reason to go on strike.

National debt to GDP:

America >100%
France <100%

Also, lets not kid ourselves with the banking crisis. We all know where it all began.

P.S.

With strong i mean the antonym of weak. You know, the word you introduced.
 
This is what we are heading for in America. Soon we will be "Euro America".
Obama wants us to be more like Europe. He's a really cool guy and really cares about the little people, so lets keep him in office for another 4 years. :rolleyes: More unions, more big government bureaucracies. Higher debt and higher taxes. I can hardly wait. Healthcare that is run by the government with the efficiency and style of your local Dept. of Motor Vehicles. This will be good for everyone. :rolleyes: Romney is not much better either, at least he is for slightly smaller government. Not much smaller though. Romney is pretending to be a conservative and Obama is pretending to be a moderate. Romney is actually a moderate and Obama is actually far left. What we need is a viable third party candidate who is financially conservative but liberal on social issues. Sorry for the rant. I got carried away. :eek:

Last time i checked, Americas healthcare system had a very poor care-to-money ratio. That anything public is inherently flawed is nothing but a myth.Just take (the American) nobel laureate O.E. Williamson's work on transaction costs for example. That "far-left" ideas can work on a national scale is also more than evident by looking at the nordic countries. How can a country like Sweden, for example, be such a strong force with a population that has yet to exceed that of NYC? Certainly, the answer is not right-wing politics.

That said, Obama is anything but far left by european standards. More like middle-right.
 
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