Fuji's first medium format mirrorless camera

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by mavericks7913, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. mavericks7913 macrumors 6502

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    #1
    http://petapixel.com/2016/09/19/fujifilm-announces-medium-format-mirrorless-51mp-gfx-50s/

    They announced a quite compact medium mirrorless camera. Pentax couldn't even release more than 4 lenses for several years while fuji announced 6 lenses! The size is still impressive like Hasselblad X1D that I tested before but it has more features like top screen.

    BUT it's basically a medium format. It is still expansive and I have no point to have it. Yeah it's still smaller than any DSLR. I would expect to see their FF mirrorless camera.
     
  2. OreoCookie macrumors 68030

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    #2
    It's a pity I will never have the money floating around to buy one. Although you should fix your title and add digital to it, because Fuji had produced medium format rangefinder cameras in the past.
     
  3. mavericks7913 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #3
    The word mirrorless already means digital. There are no mirrorless medium format camera in 20th century.
     
  4. OreoCookie macrumors 68030

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    #4
    Well, Fuji did sell two medium format rangefinder cameras, the GF670(W) up until 2 years ago. Mamiya offered the 7, a medium format rangefinder camera with interchangeable lenses, up until a few years ago.

    Anyway, I don't want to derail the happy news with nitpicky observations about the title. I'm quite happy with the announcement, even though another part of me is sad that I will never own one.
     
  5. kenoh macrumors demi-god

    kenoh

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    #5
    Never say never guys. I thought I would never have a Leica Rangefinder but the gods shined on me and I have one now.
     
  6. steveash macrumors 6502

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    #6
    Unless it is priced to compete with 35mm DSLRs then I think it might struggle to make sales. The MF market is already tiny and it will have to share it with Pentax, Hasselblad and Leica at the more affordable end.

    It seems to have a focal plane shutter too which is a pity unless they give you the option to use leaf shutters as well, as the Leica S does. High sync speed is one of the most appealing things about MF.
     
  7. kenoh macrumors demi-god

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  8. OreoCookie macrumors 68030

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    #8
    The question is whether the market is profitable, not whether it is big — and given the competition, I am not sure about that. It'll face competition: the Leica S2 is significantly more expensive, so let's leave that out for the moment. But Hasselblad and Pentax compete with similarly priced products. But if you are after resolution first and foremost, also Canon's and Nikon's high-res dslrs compete — and they are cheaper.

    The only play I see is to introduce an entry-level MF body later that is more competitively priced, akin to what Fuji did with its X-mount system. But honestly I was hoping that they would price the body similarly to a Canon/Nikon dslr with the same resolution.
    Yeah, but on the other hand that'd make the camera heavier and more complicated (unless you only offer a leaf shutter).
     
  9. CmdrLaForge macrumors 601

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    #9
    Sounds like a fantastic camera for landscape.
     
  10. sarge, Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016

    sarge macrumors 6502a

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    #10
    I think I'm sold on this...but it means I'll have to sell some gear in order to fund an acquisition. From what I'm hearing it weighs 800 grams and is smaller than many DSLRs. The most interesting thing is that it's their own sensor technology but I've heard that it's fabricated by Sony...does anyone know if that's true?

    I really wish Mamiya/Leaf would introduce a digital MF so I could make use of the Mamiya (leaf shutter) glass - I'm not selling those anytime soon.
     
  11. AlexH macrumors 68000

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    #11
    I'd love to get my hands on one of these, but I don't really do the kind of work that would benefit from a camera this pricey. I get my medium format kicks with film. It is good news though. I'd love to see the proliferation of less expensive medium format.
     
  12. kenoh macrumors demi-god

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    #12
    I agree guys. Thing is, a silicon wafer that size manufactured to a high level of quality is always going to be expensive. I might be wrong but I think silicon wafers are only made in one size so as the size of the chip coming off it increases in size, the more expensive it becomes - sorry stating the obvious but I know people who think the chips are made individually, they arent, they are cut from a "sheet".

    If Sony do manufacture the sensor, it is just Fuji outsourcing manufacturing like Apple outsource manufacturing to Foxconn. Don't worry, Sony arent going to get in on the action... yet :)

    I really like the thought of MF but to be honest, the bit limiting my photography is not my camera nor the size of its sensor... it is still the clueless lump of meat holding it... so until that changes, then no rush for me to be worrying about leaf shutters :)

    I do think that a few of you folks on here would be stellar armed with one of these bad boys though....
     
  13. tallazzPilipino macrumors 6502

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    #13
    since the original X-Pro1, they've been using Sony sensors (as do many other camera companies) but with their own colour filter array.
     
  14. sarge, Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016

    sarge macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    From what I understand Sony makes the sensors for both the Hasselblad and the Pentax MF but was curious if Fuji were using Sony silicon (of Sony design) or if it was some kind of collaboration. With Sony providing sensors to other manufacturers, differentiation is limited to processing the data coming off said chips...glad other manufactures continue to research and produce designs of their own a la Foveon/Sigma.
     
  15. steveash macrumors 6502

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    #15
    Rather concerning that apart from Leica, Sony have taken over the medium format sensor market.

    I'm surprised no one has come out with an X100/RX1 style 'compact' with the sony MF sensor yet.
     
  16. OreoCookie, Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016

    OreoCookie macrumors 68030

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    #16
    AFAIK the latest X-trans sensor which is found in e. g. the X-Pro 2 is made by Sony, so this would make sense. Interestingly, though, the sensor seems to use a Bayer pattern rather than Fuji's X-trans pattern. Given that Fuji's sensor has the exact same dimensions as the Hasselblad's it stands to reason that they in fact use the same sensor. Does anyone have confirmation of this piece of information?

    Edit: According to Fujirumors the GFX50 uses a sensor developed by Fuji. So apparently it does not use the same sensor as its competition, but it is likely still being manufactured by Sony.
    MF = medium format or manual focus?
    Mamiya already sells digital medium format cameras (with interchangeable backs). Aren't they compatible with older Mamiya lenses? (In any event, a kit seems much more expensive than the Hasselblad or Fuji.)
     
  17. kenoh macrumors demi-god

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    #17
    I believe it is outsourced manufacturing. Sony have a fabrication plant setup to produce camera sensors. Not economically feasible to setup your own.

    Standard in IT world. Bizarrely there are only a handful of factories in the world who make screens and only three or four who make ram. Everyone buys from the same guys.

    So suspect this is just Sony fabrication winning the contract to make them.
     
  18. OreoCookie macrumors 68030

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    #18
    The question is what “designed by Fuji” actually means, what (if any) is the special sauce?
     
  19. kenoh macrumors demi-god

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    #19
    Well, all sorts. wiring, sensor arrangement, what other support systems are on the chip, it is really complex.

    Another example of this is ARM Holdings.

    Most mobile devices have an ARM designed CPU inside them including the Apple devices. ARM however dont make chips, they license the design for others to buy and use, the licensee then manufactures them themselves.

    It is amazing how few companies there are out there that are actually making their own stuff. Look at the watch world for example. Very few of the watch houses you know make their own movements. The majority of fancy Swiss watches use a modified ETA movement that they buy in. Crazy isnt it? For example the Brietling Aerospace at £3,750 uses the same innards as a Victorinox Military watch at £700! my IWC Portuguese uses an ETA movement. Quite depressing when you start to dig a bit. :)

    The secret sauce is what you wrap round it to make it greater than the sum of its parts, so the filters, the software (I work in software and I believe this is where the magic happens), the user controls etc...
     
  20. OreoCookie macrumors 68030

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    #20
    I see. So the sensor bit itself is shared but they have custom on-sensor preprocessing logic which is custom. Makes sense. Thanks, that's an astute observation :)
    So does my German Stowa Antea (and yes, it was much, much cheaper than the Breitling), an ETA 2824, I believe.
    You can see that software/firmware matters when comparing Nikons and Sonys that share the same sensor but one manufacturer (usually Nikon) is able to extract more from the raw data.
     
  21. sarge, Sep 21, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016

    sarge macrumors 6502a

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    #21
    Interesting...and complicated, as expected. I know next to nothing about chip design but the ARM example is unusual because Apple then go down their own design path based on the underlying ARM patent, right? So an ARM chip in a Samsung will never be the same ARM chip in the iphone because the physical layout is different (AMD is the only semiconductor outfit that license their technology but don't actually manufacture anything as far as I understand) Maybe that is what we have here w/the Fuji/Sony sensor?

    I read somewhere that the Canon 120mp chip was based on the Foveon layered silicon concept which can only be a good thing as the loss of competition is always concerning.

    --- Post Merged, Sep 21, 2016 ---
    Medium Format AND Manual Focus...I want a digital Mamiya 7II! Keep it a rangefinder - honestly I woudn't even care if it had an EVF.
     
  22. mavericks7913 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #22
    [/QUOTE]Medium Format AND Manual Focus...I want a digital Mamiya 7II! Keep it a rangefinder - honestly I woudn't even care if it had an EVF.[/QUOTE]

    Unfortunately, Mamiya had been acquired to Phase One. I was expecting Fuji to make RF style MF but I guess not. Maybe Sony can try.
     
  23. OreoCookie macrumors 68030

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    #23
    It's more complicated: simply put. ARM licenses cores and its architecture for the ARM instruction sets. If you license cores and other logic (not necessarily just from ARM, you can get GPUs from other vendors), you can stack the IP blocks together to make your own System-on-a-Chip (SoC). Hence, even if you all have access to the same blocks, you may want to configure them differently to optimize them for your needs.

    ARM also licenses its instruction set architecture, meaning you can design your own CPUs, but if you stick to the ARM instruction set, you are sure that it works with all the existing ARM software out there. This way you can design your own specialized CPU cores but be absolutely sure that all the existing software (e. g. Android and all the compilers out there) will just work. Apple, Qualcomm and Samsung have architecture licenses as well as core licenses in addition to core licenses so that they can design their own ARM compatible cores. Apple first used their own CPU cores in the iPhone 5, and has managed to become the industry leader in ARM cores. The A10 which is built into the iPhone 7 is about as fast as the Intel CPU that you find in a MacBook or a 2013 13" MacBook Pro. Before the iPhone 5, they used vanilla ARM cores that they optimized themselves. It is rumored that the SoC in the Apple Watch 1 is also from ARM.
    You are switching ARM and AMD here: ARM allows you to license “IP blocks” which could be CPU cores, GPUs, interconnects and special logic to support things like cameras.
    It depends in this case how pixels are counted: is it a 40 MP sensor (i. e. 40 MP times 3 colors) or a bona fide 120 MP sensor. If it is the latter, I don't think it makes much sense even at full frame sensor size, there is nary a lens that has good enough resolution and you'd run into diffraction — unless your lenses are very bright, but then you'd have trouble constructing a lens that can come close to resolving 120 MP. I don't think more than 24 MP on APS-C-sized sensors and 40~50 MP on full frame sensors makes sense. Even the latter is pushing it IMHO.
    --- Post Merged, Sep 21, 2016 ---
    Well, they still can, they also have a dslr-like X-T2 and a rangefinder-like X-Pro2 in their X-mount line-up. As someone who loves their hybrid viewfinder, in the same phantasy world where I could afford Fuji's medium format camera, I'd also like a rangefinder-style body :D
    I don't think that camera style is in their DNA, they are all about true digital cameras that shed a lot of the analog traditions (which I happen to like).
     
  24. mavericks7913 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #24
    Well agree. Fuji can make another MF RF camera like X-Pro2 and X-T2. Why not? Also, there are no digital RF style MF camera anyway.
     
  25. sarge macrumors 6502a

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    #25
    Thanks for the rundown (and yes, I meant ARM not AMD. I'm chalking that up to electron leakage in the old neural network...not accustomed to thinking on such a small scale ; )
     

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