Funny that people say Mac's aren't for gaming . . .

[GFLPraxis]

Well, I am a casual gamer who is not willing to give up my casual gaming.

I am certainly disappointed by the latest GPU offerings in the new iMacs. But if they play Madden '08, WoW, and Starcraft 2 reasonably well, I'll be happy.

(as a comparison, I happily played WoW (on reduced settings, of course) on my 1st gen 1.42Ghz G4 mini, 1.33Ghz G4 iBook (12"), and my 1st gen CD MacBook)

WoW runs on a GMA 950; the iMac GPU blows away the GMA 950.

 

[harveypooka]

IMHO Mac will never be a contender in the gaming world until they start offering a larger selection of graphics cards & at more realistic prices...

You're right. Mac Pro is the only option for even a semi-hardcore gamer, which is crap as most people cannot afford one.

 

[Irishman]

I'm kinda lost here.

Why would anyone complain to the brick wall that it's not a stucco wall?

Same with the iMac complainers who want it to be a gamer's Mac. Um, what main things do gamers want? moderate price, top-notch performance, expandability, upgrade options out the wazoo.

What has the iMac NEVER been? Moderate price? Yeah, you could argue that its placement in Apple's product line is moderate. So, check one.

Top-notch performance? For cutting-edge 3D games? Um, no.

Expandable? Um, no. Unless you can plug in an external device, the iMac ain't doin' it.

Upgrade options? Faster video cards bought over the shelf? 3D audio cards? etc? Nope.


STOP complaining that the iMac isn't these things. Appreciate it for what it is, and move on. It's clearly not for you hardcore gamers.

If ANYTHING is going to be the hardcore gaming Mac it will be the Mac Pro.

Period. End of story.

 

[harveypooka]

I'm kinda lost here.

Why would anyone complain to the brick wall that it's not a stucco wall?

Same with the iMac complainers who want it to be a gamer's Mac. Um, what main things do gamers want? moderate price, top-notch performance, expandability, upgrade options out the wazoo.

What has the iMac NEVER been? Moderate price? Yeah, you could argue that its placement in Apple's product line is moderate. So, check one.

Top-notch performance? For cutting-edge 3D games? Um, no.

Expandable? Um, no. Unless you can plug in an external device, the iMac ain't doin' it.

Upgrade options? Faster video cards bought over the shelf? 3D audio cards? etc? Nope.


STOP complaining that the iMac isn't these things. Appreciate it for what it is, and move on. It's clearly not for you hardcore gamers.

If ANYTHING is going to be the hardcore gaming Mac it will be the Mac Pro.

Period. End of story.

From Apple's website:

"An ATI Radeon HD graphics processor powers each iMac, offering great gaming performance and sensational response for video and photo editing."

Great? Pah! I'm annoyed because Apple constantly puts underpowered graphics card in one of it's more popular computer models. Yes, of course it's not a beast of machine, it's more like buying a gaming laptop.

I understand that it's not expandable and that's not ideal, but what are your options as a Mac user for games? A Mac Pro. That's it. I for one can't afford to drop £2000 on a machine like that. I'd love to, but I can't.

So in recap, what really miffs me is the lack of options, there is no choice. Maybe it's not fair to take it out on the iMac - but what else can we do?

 

[Irishman]

From Apple's website:

"An ATI Radeon HD graphics processor powers each iMac, offering great gaming performance and sensational response for video and photo editing."

Great? Pah! I'm annoyed because Apple constantly puts underpowered graphics card in one of it's more popular computer models. Yes, of course it's not a beast of machine, it's more like buying a gaming laptop.

I understand that it's not expandable and that's not ideal, but what are your options as a Mac user for games? A Mac Pro. That's it. I for one can't afford to drop £2000 on a machine like that. I'd love to, but I can't.

So in recap, what really miffs me is the lack of options, there is no choice. Maybe it's not fair to take it out on the iMac - but what else can we do?

Sorry, but you're expecting brutal sale-killing honesty from marketing majors? Come on, you're looking in the wrong place for it. NOONE who uses the same video hardware in their machines is going to call it "mediocre or annoying performance in anything but 5 year-old games".

Not going to happen.

 

[Irishman]

From Apple's website:

"An ATI Radeon HD graphics processor powers each iMac, offering great gaming performance and sensational response for video and photo editing."

Great? Pah! I'm annoyed because Apple constantly puts underpowered graphics card in one of it's more popular computer models. Yes, of course it's not a beast of machine, it's more like buying a gaming laptop.

I understand that it's not expandable and that's not ideal, but what are your options as a Mac user for games? A Mac Pro. That's it. I for one can't afford to drop £2000 on a machine like that. I'd love to, but I can't.

So in recap, what really miffs me is the lack of options, there is no choice. Maybe it's not fair to take it out on the iMac - but what else can we do?

If you NEED to be a hardcore gamer and you can only spend less than 3K for a Mac Pro, then Apple ain't for you.

 

[harveypooka]

If you NEED to be a hardcore gamer and you can only spend less than 3K for a Mac Pro, then Apple ain't for you.

I review Mac games for IMG so I don't need a new Mac, but it'll be a pain in the arse if I don't have a half decent one. And what with GoW, BF2142 and Rage coming to the Mac, I'd like a decent rig. I've managed OK so far with Mac's but this latest offering is a joke.

As I keep saying, I'm hoping Apple cotton on and bring out a cut down Mac Pro...

 

[overcast]

Now it becomes obvious how you can think that Macs are okay for gaming - you thought that WoW ran 'happily' on a MacBook with Intel GMA950 graphics.

lewl!

 

[Irishman]

I review Mac games for IMG so I don't need a new Mac, but it'll be a pain in the arse if I don't have a half decent one. And what with GoW, BF2142 and Rage coming to the Mac, I'd like a decent rig. I've managed OK so far with Mac's but this latest offering is a joke.

As I keep saying, I'm hoping Apple cotton on and bring out a cut down Mac Pro...

So do I.

But, let's look at the specs and try to figure out where to cut out the fat.

If you wanted to make a gamer's Mac Pro, how would it be configured?

I'm sure the 2.66 GHz Dual Core is untouchable.

2GB of ECC RAM?

750MB Serial-ATA HD for massive game installs and MODs, etc, and 1 free bay instead of 3? That would save how much?

Right now, you gotta have the ATI X1900 XT. Not cheap.

We're already up to $3346 not counting the dubious cost gains by dropping 2 Hard Drive bays.

How does this become a cheap option?? I'm still lost.

Get rid of the Gigabit Ethernet? I don't even know if that's a cost advantage, as I don't even see 100Base-T as an option anymore.

Put it in a "budget" case? Um, Steve ain't gonna do that, besides, the development cost of the Mac Pro tower has probably been recouped, so they could probably trim a little fat there.

 

[exabytes18]

The graphics cards are the limiters here. Why not make the graphics cards made for gaming available on the Mac... like the HD2900XT or any of the 8800s. That'd be a start. Then we could work on Crossfire/SLI.

 

[TheSilencer]

The Mac Pro at all need only a new graphics card option, the CPUs are fine and the board but if you want a "mid range tower" then it goes this way:
The XEONs are touchable, they are no game related CPUs but you pay more for it, especally after the price drop at INTELs normal C2D and C2Q line, because they are XEONs!
Put them away for a Q6xxx or QX6xxx and you can also put away the workstation board and get a "normal" board. 2GB normal RAM 800MHz+, no ECC needed. Graphics options should be HD2900XT - as this is the only serious gaming card from ATi these days - or GF 8800GTS 640MB and GTX version.

 

[Irishman]

The Mac Pro at all need only a new graphics card option, the CPUs are fine and the board but if you want a "mid range tower" then it goes this way:
The XEONs are touchable, they are no game related CPUs but you pay more for it, especally after the price drop at INTELs normal C2D and C2Q line, because they are XEONs!
Put them away for a Q6xxx or QX6xxx and you can also put away the workstation board and get a "normal" board. 2GB normal RAM 800MHz+, no ECC needed. Graphics options should be HD2900XT - as this is the only serious gaming card from ATi these days - or GF 8800GTS 640MB and GTX version.

So has anyone done a cost analysis to see what the gains would be by introudcing a new Mac-specific card, and Conroes (is that what you meant by something other than Xeons?). What is the usual price premium attached to a "Mac graphics card"? That is what we'd pay for it. Not what PC owners buy off the shelf at Best Buy or CompUSA. I'm guesing cheaperr motherboard to run the Conroes? By how much?

 

[bmb012]

... the X1900XT (which was good, a year ago)...

Yeah... you guys need to buy video game consoles... You know, entertainment machines? Not tech demo rigs?

 

[Wild-Bill]

The graphics cards are the limiters here. Why not make the graphics cards made for gaming available on the Mac... like the HD2900XT or any of the 8800s. That'd be a start. Then we could work on Crossfire/SLI.

That's what we in the Mac Pro forum have been waiting on for months. It was an utter disappointment that they didn't update the Mac Pro yesterday.

Oh wait, new thousand dollar RAID card. Give me a break Apple.

 

[TheSilencer]

Hm, yeah. The Apple "premium price" graphics card and so on. Well, I am not saying that such a system will be any cheaper, especially thinking of Apple prices, but it will perform much better for games. Faster RAM, faster graphics card. However it should be around $2200, it depends mostly on what CPU is used and graphics card, RAM isn´t expensive at all, especially non ECC/FB.

 

[Irishman]

Then, I hope to God some of us get hired on at Apple in a position where we'd have Steve or Phil's ears.

 

[TheSilencer]

We will see.
For me it is not a matter of money, a game rig - a dedicated for games one - costs the same as a mac pro and if you want SLI/Crossfire in it and some extras, you go up more and more. It really is only the lack of a fast GPU, ok and faster RAM and SLI/Crossfire option.

 

[GFLPraxis]

"mediocre or annoying performance in anything but 5 year-old games".

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. It can run last year's games at high settings. Some people make it out to be a Radeon 9600!

 

[Irishman]

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. It can run last year's games at high settings. Some people make it out to be a Radeon 9600!

My point was that EVERYONE talks up their product. It didn't specify WHICH games performed wonderfully on it. The shopper brings that expectation to the purchase when they read the marketing material on Apple' s (or anyone else's) site.

 

[Irishman]

We will see.
For me it is not a matter of money, a game rig - a dedicated for games one - costs the same as a mac pro and if you want SLI/Crossfire in it and some extras, you go up more and more. It really is only the lack of a fast GPU, ok and faster RAM and SLI/Crossfire option.

So, for you, a true game rig is exemplified by Alienware, or Falcon Northwest, someone like that?

 

[contoursvt]

What apple needs to do is so simple that its not even funny.... a 3 year old can figure it out.

They need one of these with an apple logo on it. It will be fast, configurable, upgradable and affordable.

http://configure.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=ca&CS=cadhs1&l=en&OC=92004PD_F_1E


A core2 based computer with free PCI-E slots and mainstream DDR2 ram in a better looking chassis and make it semi affordable.

 

[Irishman]

What apple needs to do is so simble that its not even funny.... a 3 year old can figure it out.

They need one of these with an apple logo on it. It will be fast, configurable, upgradable and affordable.

http://configure.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=ca&CS=cadhs1&l=en&OC=92004PD_F_1E

Not what Apple is about. If it was, they'd already be doing it. Unless you're talking about the specs on it?

 

[TheSilencer]

Not necessarily Alienware or DELL XPS or so. But sure, they build good game rigs. If you build it your own, you might save some $$$.
A "true" game rig is meant to be high end, isn´t it? If I buy a game rig, it must survive at least 2 years, with upgrades 3-4 years. If you are a hardcore gamer, you may or have to buy a new system every year. And we talking about $2200-2500 range, not Alienware high end extreme $5000 machines, which are outstanding in performance but in price too.
I am not saying Apple should build machines to beat Alienware or so, but machines that can run upcomming games like Bioshock at high settings.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

Apples line up here is the problem,,,Mini vs iMac vs ProMac means real computing starts at $2k in Apple land. Everything below ProMac must be CRIPPLED and are.

 

[lost eden]

I'm kinda lost here.

Why would anyone complain to the brick wall that it's not a stucco wall?

Same with the iMac complainers who want it to be a gamer's Mac. Um, what main things do gamers want? moderate price, top-notch performance, expandability, upgrade options out the wazoo.

What has the iMac NEVER been? Moderate price? Yeah, you could argue that its placement in Apple's product line is moderate. So, check one.

Top-notch performance? For cutting-edge 3D games? Um, no.

Expandable? Um, no. Unless you can plug in an external device, the iMac ain't doin' it.

Upgrade options? Faster video cards bought over the shelf? 3D audio cards? etc? Nope.


STOP complaining that the iMac isn't these things. Appreciate it for what it is, and move on. It's clearly not for you hardcore gamers.

If ANYTHING is going to be the hardcore gaming Mac it will be the Mac Pro.

Period. End of story.

The problem isn't just with the iMac. ALL Macs fail with regards to expandability & upgrade options. Even the Mac Pro.

Yeah... you guys need to buy video game consoles... You know, entertainment machines?

Is it too much to ask that when I spend £2000 on a Mac, it performs as well in games as a £750 IBM-compat?

We will see.
For me it is not a matter of money, a game rig - a dedicated for games one - costs the same as a mac pro and if you want SLI/Crossfire in it and some extras, you go up more and more. It really is only the lack of a fast GPU, ok and faster RAM and SLI/Crossfire option.

Not true. You could build a machine that tuns all of todays newest games at maxxed out settings for the same price, or less, than an ENTRY Mac Pro.



It is really summed up by a couple of simple factors. Gamers want;

choice of components

configurability, expandability & upgradability

choice of price point

Macs fail to offer any of these. You are stuck with the very limited range of components that Apple offers you, there are no alternatives to upgrade to (assuming your Mac even has the capability for expansion!) & you're going to end up spending twice as much as an IBM-compat which boasts the same gaming performance.

If you are anything other than THE most casual gamer, then you will buy an IBM-compat or a games console. Unless, of course, you're a pathetic Apple fanboy who is blinded by advertising & refuses to accept that this is one arean WHERE APPLE FAILS BIG TIME.