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Maybe I'm in a minority, but I just don't see that these two markets are quite capable of converging. The PDA's real strength is in the form of something like a Newton, a miniature note pad that has a decent screen size and can handle some of the basic functions of a computer.

Phones are great, but either they can't have the screen size, or they're too big to be comfortable to use as a phone. I've looked at some of the 'smart-phones' that are out there, and my reaction has been that these are not things that I want to use as a PDA. I've also seen some PDAs that have phone capabilities, and my reaction has been that I would find them uncomfortably large to act as a phone.

Now, my idea of the ultimate evolution of this would be to have a phone that was little more than an ear-piece. You could choose to wear it or keep it in your pocket. In addition, have a PDA that can communicate (wifi? bluetooth? something else?) with the 'phone' to share contact information, etc. Perhaps they would be, essentially, one device, but in two pieces.

I just can't see the successful integration of all of the functionality of a PDA while still maintainig the comfort of a phone all in one unit...
 
Re: PAY ATTENTION

Originally posted by capitalhood
THE BRITISH ARE COMING, THE BRITISH ARE COMING!

actually, i have been paying quite close attention and have to disagree. during 2001-2002 i was deep into symbian development in the heart of nokia r&d at tampere, finland, and have met a lot of symbian people as i was a build manager in three projects (one was the 9210 communicator, one the 3650 toy phone, and last one not yet released model which i cannot talk about). the british are definetely not coming very fast, because there are just not enough competent (i mean guru-level) workforce to push the development any faster. they have hands full (almost tied) with their current problems and they have to choose whether they develop more problems or fix known ones. i just hope they won't make themselves the next micro****, because nokia phones are so great and depend on symbian os at this time.

well, i guess i have to back off a little - they ARE coming, just not that fast they have let you think. i'd be happier if they had the courage to slow down a little and fix bugs first. and there are plenty.
 
snowy river

Snowy, I agree with the bluetooth earpiece/pda combo. Why would you want to get even smaller displays? With web access, you need to see those pictures, and watch those movies. Especially trailers while you stand in line for tickets! When you want to dial someone, you leave your device in your pocket/holster/(forearm holster?) and speak the name of who you are calling. The earpiece needs to sustain itself when hooked onto the pda somehow...
five years later, I'd better be able to edit photos and movies on that thing!
 
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
…what you are describing is the global from earth final conflict. The coolest device to hit scifi since the communicator]

Yeah, a lot like that device, a roll out screen of pda type size, inbuilt video camera/sound player, using voice activation or projected holographic keyboard/haptics sensors to get your input. A general small communications/information device.

I don't see earpieces/eyeglasses catching on in a hurry, they are doable now badly, but the whole problem is that you cannot hide them, it is geek ware, you end up looking like you have been assimilated or are working for the CIA.
 
Originally posted by fred
Every major computer manufacturer has a PDA...everyone except Apple that is. Let's face it folks Apple doesn't have the resources to be a major player in the hardware market à la Sony or Dell...

Gateway doesn't. And Gateway's the company that's rebranding itself as a consumer electronics company instead of merely a PC company.
 
iPod-Newton w/ "smart stylus" transceiver?

Props to Snowy_River and mvc -- IMHO you're thinking along the right lines, here.

The problem with converging phones, PDAs and mp3/media players is the crucial issue of form factor; what's optimal for one use is awkward for the other(s). Phones need to be light and slim, yet PDAs and media players (esp. expanding from audio to full A/V) demand a nice, wide screen, and desirable mini-HDs also tend to limit width reduction potential. Possibly until we can get a roll-up or holographic-projection screen in a collapsible housing (a la E:FC's "Global" units as pictured by mvc above), I have an idea, one which may work out even more conveniently than that -- something like Newton-iPod hybrid, but with the innovation of an audio-transceiver "smart stylus".

The device's main unit would continue much along PDA/iPod lines as a thin "slab" you can carry on a belt or lanyard, or in a pocket or purse, fully-fronted by a touch-sensitive, good-rez color screen, containing a built-in mini-HD and running a light, quick OS consolidating PDA, phone and media functions. Think of a slightly wider iPod, maybe taller -- say, 16:9 aspect ratio -- faced with a touch-sensitive screen extending to the very edges (iPod controls are already nearly virtual in the latest rev, so these simply could be displayed on one mode of the full-face screen, rather than taking up extra face-space beyond the screen). Bonus points for working a decent camera into it (mebbe pops outta the side, to conserve face dimensions).

Now, this form factor is great for PDA-media use, but awfully unweildy for a phone; here's where the auxiliary unit comes in -- the audio transceiver "smart stylus". The stylus would be a bit beefier than most current PDAs' styli (more like the Newton's telescoping pen-stylus instead), and would double as a phone "headset". Leave the main unit wherever you keep it, and keep the stylus either holstered in the main unit or clipped into any more-convenient pocket. When you want to use the phone, just pull out the stylus, click an integrated button or telescope it to full length (Newton-esque again), and hold it up to your head to chat -- the mic's in one end, the speaker in the other (adapting the iPod's earbud technology), and Bluetooth links it to the main unit. The actual stylus tip could be made to slide out of the larger pen-transceiver (think of a slim, short Palm-style stylus slipped into a fatter, longer -- say, Sharpie-sized -- transceiver pen), so you could use the stylus on the screen and still talk, simultaneously. Bonus points for working an actual ink-pen tip into the design as well (like those Cross 3-way pen-pencil-stylus combos).

Well, whadaya think?
 
PDA dead or reborn from the ashes of a Newton?

OK I might agree about the PDA thing but as it has been stated Pocket PCs may surpass the PDA. Why carry a PDA when some cell phones do the same thing. 🙂

But what is Apple bringing to the table if anything. Maybe something entirely different. If we look a t several facts you may see a vague picture of what the future holds. Currently there are rumblings of a mysterious 4th product being released this week.

1. Apple has a plastic enclosure in production that consists of a 5x7 LCD and a rear slot the size of an iPod.

2. Do you really think all of that hard drive space on the iPod is really for you to carry around your entire music collection?
Somebody is thinking long term.

3. Panther utilizes new movie compression technology called Pixelet which reduces files sizes considerably.

4. What in the word is Inkwell for? I mean I use it with my Wacom tablet to play but besides that...?

5. Bluetooth, Airport, Rendevouz. iChat/AV???

6. So if I could have a device that allowed me to collaborate on a design project or surf the web from my couch or control my devices, or watch a movie thats loaded on my iPod or show a client a presentation or see my Keynote presentation as I presented it or . . .

7. Sell it separately with limited memory and then allow the iPod to be locked into the rear enclosure for added storage space. Now I can sell more iPods and sell this to existing iPod owners.

Just an analysis of all the current pieces of info floating around in cyberspace. But what do I know? 😉
 
phoning with the iPod

I was thinking that it must be quite feasable to add cell phone capacities to the iPod. It already carries all our phone numbers. It would only need a basic cell phone module and a tiny microphone in the headset remote. Since owning an iPod I hate carrying my cell phone around. I only want to carry one item at a time.

I definitely don't want number keys to appear on the iPod, no!! But I would like to be able to reach all the numbers I entered through AddresBook.app. I don't necessarily want to receive calls with the iPod, it would disturb while listening to my music 😉 as long as I can make calls. Does anyone else see the genius in this idea ?😛 Can it be done ?
 
Cell phone manufacturers have no idea what people want. All the colors and cameras on phones are just stupid. It's kiddy stuff. They are marketing to the 12 year olds whose parents will be buying them a cell phone in a few years. Another example of this... flip phones. I have one but I hate it, it's a pain. I want a brick however, oh, Sprint doesn't sell a brick anymore.

Another reason why people will not buy a smartphone is the cell phone plans. If I buy a Treo from Sprint, move to Virgina and decide I want to be At&T now, guess what, I have a useless Treo. The $300 or so I paid for it I have to pay it again for a new one. That is why I won't buy a smartphone, because I don't want to be tied down to my phone service.

Also, they want to say the PDA is dead... but what about the desktop computer? Sales are falling in that arena. Those sales are being taken by laptops. Well... laptops are still big clunky things (in comparison to PDAs) and if the PDA gets to the point where it surpasses the laptop in useability, laptop sales will also fall but I believe desktop sales will go up. PDAs already surpass the useablilty of laptops when it comes to battery life. Right now they need more memory and voice recognition so that instead of typing a report, you can speak it to the device and then go back and make corrections.

Phones need to go in the direction of an earpiece and a bluetooth connection to a PDA or laptop.

Symbian? There is ONE device in the US that uses that. If Symbian had agressively played the US market for PDAs about 5 years ago maybe it would be a much more viable smartphone OS.
 
I don't think the PDA is dead. Its quite a big claim to be making, and i think there are other correlating factors that are being ignored.

I'd like to see the Newton revived, I've read about the amazing things it was capable. Truly a gadget ahead of its time....
 
Look into my crystal ball. . .
I see the future of the PDA, but the plain PDA does not exsist. The future holds a palm computer that combines my current Palm III, iPod, cell phone, and the power of a laptop. All of this the size of the 3G iPods (but a larger input/viewing color screen). I then drop my superPod into the dock by my 42" plasma TV and can watch all the movies i have stored. drop my superPod into the dock by my apple cinema display and use it like a desktop computer. drop my superPod into the dock and work and can access the network and all my job related documents. or simply take my superPod wherever i want and have wireless access to all of the above. (oh yeah and i could make calls on the cell phone) i gadget that does EVERYTHING. i would pay top dollar for a G5 superPod, how about you???
 
Looking for a cell phone with calendar functionality

Hi guys,

I am looking for a cell phone that can sync my calendar with both Mac and Apple.

First I tought I need to buy a PDA, but I just want to be reminded about my next meetings and so on.

Do you think a Sony T610 or T800 would fit for that purpose. T610 would be better because its much cheaper.

Thanks for your replys
CmdrLaForge
 
Originally posted by LinuxGigolo
Gateway doesn't. And Gateway's the company that's rebranding itself as a consumer electronics company instead of merely a PC company.

Apple could - if they really want to - sell a PDA under there brand that was developed and manufactured by another company like Palm or someone else.

It seems more like that they don't want at the moment. Maybe they have something in the pipeline that is just ahead of time. Wouldn't that be Apple like ?
 
Re: iPod-Newton w/ "smart stylus" transceiver?

Originally posted by SubGothius
The stylus would be a bit beefier than most current PDAs' styli (more like the Newton's telescoping pen-stylus instead), and would double as a phone "headset". Leave the main unit wherever you keep it, and keep the stylus either holstered in the main unit or clipped into any more-convenient pocket. When you want to use the phone, just pull out the stylus, click an integrated button or telescope it to full length (Newton-esque again), and hold it up to your head to chat -- the mic's in one end, the speaker in the other (adapting the iPod's earbud technology), and Bluetooth links it to the main unit. The actual stylus tip could be made to slide out of the larger pen-transceiver (think of a slim, short Palm-style stylus slipped into a fatter, longer -- say, Sharpie-sized -- transceiver pen), so you could use the stylus on the screen and still talk, simultaneously. Bonus points for working an actual ink-pen tip into the design as well (like those Cross 3-way pen-pencil-stylus combos).

Well, whadaya think?

I think you've never read the forum thread arguments about styli preferences at a PDA-centric site, or lost your PDA stylus. 🙂

Seriously: people's preferences as to size, length, and weight of their chosen styli can approach the levels of a Mac vs. Win argument. Also, styli are typically very easy to lose, which would really suck if half the functionality of your device is in the styli.

General thoughts on this thread:

iPods won't take over from PDAs until you can ENTER data, not just look at it. For now, the iPod does not merit serious consideration as a PDA contender.

I think that the people who say the PDA is dead are exaggerating, yes--there will always be a market for that particular combination of needs--but I do think that the mass-market, non-niche potential of the PDA has been usurped by cell phones. To sell a PDA now, you have to add all kinds of multimedia and wireless options, which is evidence that the basic organizer functions just don't attract the average buyer anymore. Unless you specifically need the data-centric abilities of a PDA--the ability to write spreadsheets in airports, for example--a cell phone is enough.

Personally, the only reason I still have my Vx is that I don't know of a Weight Watchers journal program for phones.
 
Re: You just reminded me of the computer I want:

Originally posted by justytylor
Anybody here ever read William Gibson's Idoru? You, my friend, just described a Sandbenders...

My sister has it checked out from the library right now. I haven't read it. Although I have read Neuromancer and Mona Lisa Overdrive.
 
Re: Pocket PC

Originally posted by barhoptheworld
... The need for PDAs is dieing fast as phones catch up. If someone could combine the ergonomics of a phone, the input area of a quality PDA, and ease of use of lets say... OS X, it would be an ustopable product.... it would take the tech world by storm (ipod style).
Well, my opinion on this topic is that it is not really important whether the PDA dies or not as my "equation" is
PDA + Cellular = Cellular + PDA = Smartphone.

That discussion reminds me a little of reasoning about whether green apples are picked in summer and the red ones will survive...

And to do a little self-marketing: we are working on porting GNUstep (i.e. like the Cocoa kit) to the Sharp Zaurus and want to imitate MacOS X as good as possible. Please look at
http://www.dsitri.de/php/projects/project.php?project=mySTEP

As Linux smart phones become available, we simply start porting...
 
Re: Re: Re: PDAs are like Model Ts

Originally posted by hose this!
Good point. Millions of people will continue to use PDA regardless of whether analysts see it as a growth market or not. Why? Because a lot of people find them very very useful. Another fundamental force to consider is that storage memory will continue to get smaller and cheaper. When 30gb PDAs or phones capable of mp3 playback hit the street, you think anyone's going to dish $500 for an ipod?

At the point when PDA's with 30gb of storage hit the streets, do you really think the iPod will still be $500?

The ipod's been a success because Apple got the size, capacity, and interface right before anyone else. Don't think this is going to last forever.

Microsoft has been trying for almost twenty years now to imitate the ease of use of the MacOS, they have yet to succeed. Rio is has their own HD-based mp3 player, but it isn't nearly as popular as the iPod. The popularity of the iPod will only grow with the release of iTunes for Windows. What keeps me from buying an iPod is the lousy battery life for the most part.

If Apple are truly cunning and not up their own arses too much, they are viewing the iPod as a stepping stone - an intermediate if you will - towards building their expertise in launching a truly amazing portable multifunction device.

Today software was releaed which allows the iPod to download driving directions from MapQuest. Introduce a new input method and you have a PDA for all intents and purposes. Especially cosidering from what I've read in this forum, where most people are only using their PDAs for contacts.
 
A Little idea on where PDAs have a future

With the rise of mobile computing and mobile phones the niche for the PDA seems to be shrinking - Contacts and Calendar functions are now best done on the phone, while small and cheep laptops offer much better capability in terms of higher end use, like word processing or other true 'mobile computing' tasks. That WiFi and Bluetooth are now far more common on laptops than PDAs (especially as integrated of standard issue equipment) is an indication of what's wrong with PDAs; they are still seen as stand alone tools.

Computers are infinitely more useful if you can network them, if only to the internet; it could be argued that the growth of networking is one of the main reasons that fuels the growth of the computer market (how many consumer PCs do you not see advertised as 'internet ready'?).

Mobile Phones are by their very nature 'networked'. But there is a practical limitation on phones - their primary purpose still remains voice and txt communication. You can bolt as many feature on them as you like but consumers must be able to carry them - and not need a rucksack to do so. This limits their size, both in terms of volume available for hardware and area available for user I/O. The latter is perhaps the more crippling handicap. With 20 or so keys and a small LCD there are only so many tasks you can do easily (think back to the pre-T9 predictive text entry days and imagine trying to write a report on the train traveling home! or imagine trying to do it even with T9 on that tiny screen). Modern picture phones are already getting a bit big for comfort, and a bit complicated to use.

So though PDAs may some day incorporate mobiles (and no the other way round - think of the Nokia Communicator - to do a reasonable pass at PDA functionality the device must be large enough to ease user I/O) there will always be a niche for mobile phones, small and simple.

So where does the traditional PDA stand? Well functions like Address book, memos, calendar are all easily (and in some cases better) done on a Mobile especially if it can be sync-d with a proper computer. Which is what PDAs used to be good for.

Now a couple of months ago (When I was looking forward to purchasing a PowerBook - I'm still waiting for the new ones) I was on my way home (a 40' journey at best) facing allot more work to do when I got there. The thought of soon being able to whip out my shinny new PowerBook and get started - not just prepare - was some small comfort, especially when the train ground to a halt (Welcome to the UK). Then it dawned on me - my laptop would be in my bag, which I was almost literally standing on at the time for want of space. There would be no way to bend down and get it out of the bag, let alone use it. A PDA in my coat pocket - yes. But even the very best would not have been capable of letting me start truly productive work.

But my (still) imaginary laptop was at my feet in my bag. Well within Bluetooth and Airport range (both of which it would have). PDA could have both as well, no? 54MB/s is enough to handle user I/O isn't it, on a relatively small touch screen?

You can see where I'm going. A PDA with proper wireless connectivity in proximity to a laptop could be used to access the laptop when practicality prohibits the latter’s use. Something say 2-3 times the size of an IPod would have ample space for easy use and decent spec; colour touch screen, big battery, Bluetooth and/or Airport, say a 10-15 Gb HDD and a slow speed G3 or better G4.

Out of rage of the Laptop the relatively high spec would allow the device to be used as a bit more than a glorified mobile phone (without the utility of a phone). It could keep a copy of the owners home directory (good for backup and easy sync-ing between say a home desktop and work desktop even if there is no laptop available) and provide enough capability to run a (limited?) version of OSX - maybe even third party applications without much need to port them. Even without 'Pocket-Photoshop' the utilities in OSX are far more useful then the standard PDA. (And as someone else mentioned what the hell is Inkwell for if you’ve got a keyboard? - Apple is starting to think long term and it fascinating to watch: FCP, Shake, XServe, etc. - they're doing some serious manovering.)

Thinking about usage - the times when you are in a situation where you need to get useful work done but using the laptop may not be practical are usually when you are travelling - to work, to the airport, on the plane etc. i.e. times when the laptop is probably close at hand but 'out of reach'. When the laptops in not nearby but you'd still have the PDA rather than just your Mobile phone, e.g. popping out of the office for a coffee, you probably don’t need to do 'high end' tasks; at most you might read a document (using Preview?) or run in to a colleague who wants to check some figures with you (as you've got a copy of you're home directory you'll have all the reports you wrote with you!). And if there’s a WiFi access point then the machine is easily capable of proper web browsing - none of this expensive and limited WAP stuff.

What I'm suggesting is a new style PDA - no - not a Personal Digital Assistant, but rather a Laptop Extension / (Basic) Handheld Mac (depending on whether the laptop is in range or not). It's role is not that of a Mobile minus the Phone but rather a Laptop minus the lap. It makes mobile computing practical when you need it most - when its often not.
 
Re: A Little idea on where PDAs have a future

Originally posted by PHGN
With the rise of mobile computing and mobile phones the niche for the PDA seems to be shrinking - Contacts and Calendar functions are now best done on the phone, while small and cheep laptops offer much better capability in terms of higher end use, like word processing or other true 'mobile computing' tasks. That WiFi and Bluetooth are now far more common on laptops than PDAs (especially as integrated of standard issue equipment) is an indication of what's wrong with PDAs; they are still seen as stand alone tools.

Computers are infinitely more useful if you can network them, if only to the internet; it could be argued that the growth of networking is one of the main reasons that fuels the growth of the computer market (how many consumer PCs do you not see advertised as 'internet ready'?).

Mobile Phones are by their very nature 'networked'. But there is a practical limitation on phones - their primary purpose still remains voice and txt communication. You can bolt as many feature on them as you like but consumers must be able to carry them - and not need a rucksack to do so. This limits their size, both in terms of volume available for hardware and area available for user I/O. The latter is perhaps the more crippling handicap. With 20 or so keys and a small LCD there are only so many tasks you can do easily (think back to the pre-T9 predictive text entry days and imagine trying to write a report on the train traveling home! or imagine trying to do it even with T9 on that tiny screen). Modern picture phones are already getting a bit big for comfort, and a bit complicated to use.

So though PDAs may some day incorporate mobiles (and no the other way round - think of the Nokia Communicator - to do a reasonable pass at PDA functionality the device must be large enough to ease user I/O) there will always be a niche for mobile phones, small and simple.

So where does the traditional PDA stand? Well functions like Address book, memos, calendar are all easily (and in some cases better) done on a Mobile especially if it can be sync-d with a proper computer. Which is what PDAs used to be good for.

Now a couple of months ago (When I was looking forward to purchasing a PowerBook - I'm still waiting for the new ones) I was on my way home (a 40' journey at best) facing allot more work to do when I got there. The thought of soon being able to whip out my shinny new PowerBook and get started - not just prepare - was some small comfort, especially when the train ground to a halt (Welcome to the UK). Then it dawned on me - my laptop would be in my bag, which I was almost literally standing on at the time for want of space. There would be no way to bend down and get it out of the bag, let alone use it. A PDA in my coat pocket - yes. But even the very best would not have been capable of letting me start truly productive work.

But my (still) imaginary laptop was at my feet in my bag. Well within Bluetooth and Airport range (both of which it would have). PDA could have both as well, no? 54MB/s is enough to handle user I/O isn't it, on a relatively small touch screen?

You can see where I'm going. A PDA with proper wireless connectivity in proximity to a laptop could be used to access the laptop when practicality prohibits the latter’s use. Something say 2-3 times the size of an IPod would have ample space for easy use and decent spec; colour touch screen, big battery, Bluetooth and/or Airport, say a 10-15 Gb HDD and a slow speed G3 or better G4.

Out of rage of the Laptop the relatively high spec would allow the device to be used as a bit more than a glorified mobile phone (without the utility of a phone). It could keep a copy of the owners home directory (good for backup and easy sync-ing between say a home desktop and work desktop even if there is no laptop available) and provide enough capability to run a (limited?) version of OSX - maybe even third party applications without much need to port them. Even without 'Pocket-Photoshop' the utilities in OSX are far more useful then the standard PDA. (And as someone else mentioned what the hell is Inkwell for if you’ve got a keyboard? - Apple is starting to think long term and it fascinating to watch: FCP, Shake, XServe, etc. - they're doing some serious manovering.)

Thinking about usage - the times when you are in a situation where you need to get useful work done but using the laptop may not be practical are usually when you are travelling - to work, to the airport, on the plane etc. i.e. times when the laptop is probably close at hand but 'out of reach'. When the laptops in not nearby but you'd still have the PDA rather than just your Mobile phone, e.g. popping out of the office for a coffee, you probably don’t need to do 'high end' tasks; at most you might read a document (using Preview?) or run in to a colleague who wants to check some figures with you (as you've got a copy of you're home directory you'll have all the reports you wrote with you!). And if there’s a WiFi access point then the machine is easily capable of proper web browsing - none of this expensive and limited WAP stuff.

What I'm suggesting is a new style PDA - no - not a Personal Digital Assistant, but rather a Laptop Extension / (Basic) Handheld Mac (depending on whether the laptop is in range or not). It's role is not that of a Mobile minus the Phone but rather a Laptop minus the lap. It makes mobile computing practical when you need it most - when its often not.

WOW - thats quite a post. 😀
 
This is a reference design by TI. There is no frame of ref for the size of the device but rest assured its small and light. I firmly believe cell phones are going to be integrated into PDA's rather then PDA's into cell phones. People like working with there data on the go. A cell phone shape and design isn’t conducive to data manipulation\input.

For those of you who think a PDA is useless, well of course its useless if all you're going to say is, "Its useless since my mobile phone can keep my contacts and schedule" --- that's all you want to do. And don't even mention the Newton as the 1st of its kind......it wasn't. There have been electronic organizers for years, even before the Newton. 🙄

My PDA is useful because it keeps my schedule very well, the input method is useful, even if its only Graffiti, and my mobile phone can't match it. There's no input capability as good as Palms, or even PocketPC's. There's a Nokia phone that has this capability, but its over $1000 Cdn dollars and is definitely not worth it.

Here's a Handspring/Palm Treo 600.

treo_image.jpg


PDA's will never die as long as you can get functionality like this from a PDA. No mobile phone is even close except the Nokia phone, but that's even bigger than this Treo.
 
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