AlphaTech:
the chart is on photoshop performance, nothing else. the g4 is not "roasting" the p4 in most other areas. some might even say the reverse.
i do agree that there should be no rush to kill the g3.
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G3s all gone
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AlphaTech:
the chart is on photoshop performance, nothing else. the g4 is not "roasting" the p4 in most other areas. some might even say the reverse.
i do agree that there should be no rush to kill the g3.
My experience shows that modern G3 processors are equal to G4 speeds. Real world tests seem to indicate that Altivec is the only difference between the two chips.
Oh, and G3 processors clearly slay PIII's. And don't even get me started about the design flaws of Pentium 4 ... (There is a reason why Pentium's best current offering is a P3 and NOT a P4).
There is still a lot of life left in the G3.
Oh, and G3 processors clearly slay PIII's. And don't even get me started about the design flaws of Pentium 4 ... (There is a reason why Pentium's best current offering is a P3 and NOT a P4).
There is still a lot of life left in the G3.
The G3 is for the education market!
Man, now if I want to see some heat I do not have to try and live up the winter here in New Jersey! (Warmerst EVER!!!) I can just visit this forum!
The G3 now only supports the iBook, which is actually a plus. Apple wants the iBook to be for the educational market, so Apple has no choice, but to put together a simple computer, a portable, a cheap portable, a G3.
Back to action!
________________________
Bill Gates: All you need to upload pictures from your camera is a fast PC and some boring software.
KC: Well I have a Mac, and the software I use operates in OS X. Does that make me better than you?
Man, now if I want to see some heat I do not have to try and live up the winter here in New Jersey! (Warmerst EVER!!!) I can just visit this forum!
The G3 now only supports the iBook, which is actually a plus. Apple wants the iBook to be for the educational market, so Apple has no choice, but to put together a simple computer, a portable, a cheap portable, a G3.
Back to action!
________________________
Bill Gates: All you need to upload pictures from your camera is a fast PC and some boring software.
KC: Well I have a Mac, and the software I use operates in OS X. Does that make me better than you?
Originally posted by krossfyter
watch out for the flames in here....
Ok, you made your point. Thats like the 6th post about flames. I think you should go jump in the pool!
Re: The G3 is for the education market!
Down here in palm springs, its about emmm...130 degrees in the summer. A cool day in the winter here is like 70 degrees. A cool day in the summer is like 110 degrees.
Down here in palm springs, its about emmm...130 degrees in the summer. A cool day in the winter here is like 70 degrees. A cool day in the summer is like 110 degrees.
honestly i think the only thing holding apple back from putting a g4 in the ibook are design problems. the rest of all of your arguments MIGHT hold up if it werent for a little thing called the g4 imac.
i remember in the days leading up to MWSF 2003 we were all attacking the people who said the imac would have a g4 in it. and you know what the arguments then are the same ones you guys are using now. apple showed you all that you are wrong so get over it.
the g4 is too hot. period. thats the only problem. the Ti will get a speed bump soon so the differentiation between them will be better soon. the closeness in mhz now is just an artifact of the ibooks having just been updated and the Pbooks being the last in the line to see an update.
all this stupid talk of the g4 is too expensive and the ibook is for education is crap. we heard it 4 months ago when convincing eachother the imac COULDNT have a g4 in it and you guys are using the same bad logic now.
as soon as apple CAN get a g4 in the ibook they will.
the apollo processor shows a hope that the chip might get cool enough at some point in the future to allow a g4 in an ibook.
steve has said in every interview since the g4imac that OSX NEEDS altivec. just go to apple's page and look at the list of software that is optimized for altivec. sure the g4 is just as fast as the g3 without the altivec but we are living in an altivec world. you have to include it in your comparisons.
with osx in the world EVERY mac needs altivec and EVERY mac needs as much speed as possible. apple knows this. they are attacking this problem form every angle. and as soon as they can get a g4 to run in an ibook you better believe they are going to use it.
i remember in the days leading up to MWSF 2003 we were all attacking the people who said the imac would have a g4 in it. and you know what the arguments then are the same ones you guys are using now. apple showed you all that you are wrong so get over it.
the g4 is too hot. period. thats the only problem. the Ti will get a speed bump soon so the differentiation between them will be better soon. the closeness in mhz now is just an artifact of the ibooks having just been updated and the Pbooks being the last in the line to see an update.
all this stupid talk of the g4 is too expensive and the ibook is for education is crap. we heard it 4 months ago when convincing eachother the imac COULDNT have a g4 in it and you guys are using the same bad logic now.
as soon as apple CAN get a g4 in the ibook they will.
the apollo processor shows a hope that the chip might get cool enough at some point in the future to allow a g4 in an ibook.
steve has said in every interview since the g4imac that OSX NEEDS altivec. just go to apple's page and look at the list of software that is optimized for altivec. sure the g4 is just as fast as the g3 without the altivec but we are living in an altivec world. you have to include it in your comparisons.
with osx in the world EVERY mac needs altivec and EVERY mac needs as much speed as possible. apple knows this. they are attacking this problem form every angle. and as soon as they can get a g4 to run in an ibook you better believe they are going to use it.
G3 will stay in iBook for a long time
I know lot's of people have said this before but i think the G3 will stay in the ibook for a long time. I think it is much better for apple to offer the ibook at a low price with a g3 with lots of mhz, then offer a ibook at high price with a g4. Also the last ibook : the 14" isn't a very good idea from apple. Students buy the ibook because it's an apple and it's very small. The sales of the 14" are way lower then the 12" ibook's.
Also the G5 is for tomorrow (next year) because the G4 processor is still way ahead of the intel processors. And apple doesn't want to bring out there newest stuff when they are way ahead of everybody else : let people first buy a G4 with lot's of Ghz and then, when pc's are catting up a little bit, bring out the G5 so we are again ahead and people will buy a new mac...
I know lot's of people have said this before but i think the G3 will stay in the ibook for a long time. I think it is much better for apple to offer the ibook at a low price with a g3 with lots of mhz, then offer a ibook at high price with a g4. Also the last ibook : the 14" isn't a very good idea from apple. Students buy the ibook because it's an apple and it's very small. The sales of the 14" are way lower then the 12" ibook's.
Also the G5 is for tomorrow (next year) because the G4 processor is still way ahead of the intel processors. And apple doesn't want to bring out there newest stuff when they are way ahead of everybody else : let people first buy a G4 with lot's of Ghz and then, when pc's are catting up a little bit, bring out the G5 so we are again ahead and people will buy a new mac...
Have any of you tried working in OS X with a G3 on a daily basis? It is horrible! The screen redraws take forever, and simply opening programs, and even control menus takes more time than I've seen in a while. Yes yes the G4's are fine, but this incremental boost to a processor that is currently being trounced by P4 and Amd systems just will not cut it. And anyone that doesn't see this, just try photoshop on a dual 1.7 P4 and a dual 1 gHz mac. The p4 beats the G4 hands down. If Apple wants to stick with the G3, then they need to boost the next iBook rev up to 900 mHz at the least, and even then, OSX will just barely be functional. The reality of the processor market is that over time, the manufacturing process becomes better and better, yielding lower costs, thus lower prices, and that has simply not been the case with Apple. Anyone that does not see the current G3 ( and the next 3-4 speed bumps) as dated is a fool. Especially cosidering IBM had a power PC chip running at 1.1 gHz in 1998. The fact is that intel and AMD are moving swiftly along the processor ladder, while Apple works on the next "neat" computer. I don't expect comparative performance from apple, I expect it to blow the competition out of the water, something that is not happening now, or for the forseeable future. yes the G4 is better than its counterparts, BUT NOT AT THESE SPEEDS!!!!!
Death to the G3!
Death to the G3!
SubFredZero:
the g4 is not "way ahead of the intel processors." apple is playing the catch-up game, not intel. i wish what you claim was true, but it is not. wintel machines are faster; part of this is due to mobos, RAM, etc. i think at mwsf jan 2003 apple will release the g5 machines and narrow the gap significantly.
your reasoning for not bringing out the g5 is iffy. moto has not gone into production of the g5 (MPC7500). the MPC7470 (a faster g4) should come at mwny july 2002. i'm convinced that apple doesn't hold back. they release at the first expo the product is ready.
good thread gambit.
the g4 is not "way ahead of the intel processors." apple is playing the catch-up game, not intel. i wish what you claim was true, but it is not. wintel machines are faster; part of this is due to mobos, RAM, etc. i think at mwsf jan 2003 apple will release the g5 machines and narrow the gap significantly.
your reasoning for not bringing out the g5 is iffy. moto has not gone into production of the g5 (MPC7500). the MPC7470 (a faster g4) should come at mwny july 2002. i'm convinced that apple doesn't hold back. they release at the first expo the product is ready.
good thread gambit.
I think I will have to agree with Lt. Lemon on this. Apple has surprised us with a G4 iMac, but only because of high demands from what Mac consumers wanted to see in a new computer: A flat screen, Superdrive, and the G4 (Jobs; Macworld San Fransisco 2002 Broadcast).
However, I do not see Apple updating their iBook to a G4, unless popular demand says so, just as in the iMac.
Once consumer demands achieve a maximum in a G4 iBook, Apple will make one. But since Apple recently updated their iBook to have a bigger screen, it is not likely that we will se one until Powerbooks have reached a very high G4 or low G5, or at least until MacWorld New York.
________________________
Bill Gates: All you need to upload pictures from your camera is a fast PC and some boring software.
KC: Well I have a Mac, and the software I use operates in OS X. Does that make me better than you?
However, I do not see Apple updating their iBook to a G4, unless popular demand says so, just as in the iMac.
Once consumer demands achieve a maximum in a G4 iBook, Apple will make one. But since Apple recently updated their iBook to have a bigger screen, it is not likely that we will se one until Powerbooks have reached a very high G4 or low G5, or at least until MacWorld New York.
________________________
Bill Gates: All you need to upload pictures from your camera is a fast PC and some boring software.
KC: Well I have a Mac, and the software I use operates in OS X. Does that make me better than you?
GigaWire:
i agree with you in everything except for the g3 needing to die. if the g3 was running at 900mhz in an ibook, that would be satisfactory. i had no idea ibm had a ppc running at 1.1 ghz in 98, thank you for the tid bit. i really wish apple would switch from moto to ibm. maybe sometime in the future.
i agree with you in everything except for the g3 needing to die. if the g3 was running at 900mhz in an ibook, that would be satisfactory. i had no idea ibm had a ppc running at 1.1 ghz in 98, thank you for the tid bit. i really wish apple would switch from moto to ibm. maybe sometime in the future.
Agreed!
I'm getting pretty sick of Motorola dragging their feet, especially when IBM is getting such good numbers out of their processors. This thread wouldn't be a flame war if we had some of those IBM G3s in the iBook.
Gigawire, do you even listen to what we are saying? The G3 itself IS NOT THE FRIGGIN' PROBLEM!!! And what are you talking about "screen redraws"?
Matthew
I'm getting pretty sick of Motorola dragging their feet, especially when IBM is getting such good numbers out of their processors. This thread wouldn't be a flame war if we had some of those IBM G3s in the iBook.
Gigawire, do you even listen to what we are saying? The G3 itself IS NOT THE FRIGGIN' PROBLEM!!! And what are you talking about "screen redraws"?
Matthew
The thread was initially about the G4 moving to the rest of the Apple quadrants. The responses were that Apple didn't need to. That the G3 is good enough. What i am saying is that the G3, as it is now, is the friggin' problem. The processor, and this mentality of accepting mediocre products from a company that should be "warp factor X" ahead of their competition. Apple can not be a success running OSX on G3's with sub gHz performance.
So do you listen to what i am saying?
hey giga... what G3 are you using??? There have been more then just one G3 chip ya know. There are also other contributing factors to a slow system, other then the processor. The most rampant factor is between the keyboard and the chair. You know the one... the thing that has a sticker on it that reads 'idiot on board'.
*Gulp*
Sorry, I think I am getting a little hot!
As for the G3, I dont think Apple will be getting rid of it for a LONG time. I am thinking MWSF 03 or MWNY 03. It is an education yet powerful mac.
Define Success
Gigawire, could you please define success in measureable, objective terms? This would help de-personalize this thread. What is the best measure of success for Apple and how does the G3 limit this success?
Apple is a business and I feel the stock market is the best measurement of its success. Apple does not exist to satiate the narcisitic individual who chooses a handle based on an as of yet unreleased technology.
Further, if your strategy and suggestions will really help apple, then I support them. Perhaps you should address business strategy remarks to Cupertino, Ca. rather than a macrumors site. Normally, this sort of thing is acceptable (eg. ideas for apple to improve upon), but your emotional, reactive tone is so extreme that I really think you should relax.
Gigawire, could you please define success in measureable, objective terms? This would help de-personalize this thread. What is the best measure of success for Apple and how does the G3 limit this success?
Apple is a business and I feel the stock market is the best measurement of its success. Apple does not exist to satiate the narcisitic individual who chooses a handle based on an as of yet unreleased technology.
Further, if your strategy and suggestions will really help apple, then I support them. Perhaps you should address business strategy remarks to Cupertino, Ca. rather than a macrumors site. Normally, this sort of thing is acceptable (eg. ideas for apple to improve upon), but your emotional, reactive tone is so extreme that I really think you should relax.
Thorn in the flesh
The G3 is a thorn in apple's flesh. They are quite slow (compared to the G4), but at the same time, they're cheap to make (again, compared to the G4), and still have quite a bit of life left in them (as far as theoretical speed goes) It'd be like throwing out a perfectly good TV set and buying a new HDTV set with the same diagonal size. It'd be really nice, and it's much better, you might even have the money for it, but it'd just be such a waste.
The G3 is a thorn in apple's flesh. They are quite slow (compared to the G4), but at the same time, they're cheap to make (again, compared to the G4), and still have quite a bit of life left in them (as far as theoretical speed goes) It'd be like throwing out a perfectly good TV set and buying a new HDTV set with the same diagonal size. It'd be really nice, and it's much better, you might even have the money for it, but it'd just be such a waste.
i think that it's all about the clock speed. like gigawire said earlier, "the G4 is better than its counterparts, BUT NOT AT THESE SPEEDS!!!!!" if g4 was 50-60% faster in clock rate, it would hold its own against the p4 and athlon xp. if it's clock rate was 100% faster, it would blow them out of the water. if ibm could get the g3 to 1.1 ghz, i bet the g4 can scale quite a bit higher than it is now.
i wouldn't worry about it. i like your way of thinking (processor better but not at currnet speeds, that thing).
Krossfyter,
Apple has even been number one in market share a couple of times, if you count manufacturers by brand. That means their 5% or so has beat Gateway, Dell, Compaq, HP, IBM or Sony, and others slice of the pie on a one to one basis in the past, depending on when and how long you were counting your beans.
Not that it means squat. Overall, they are still 95% to our five percent, as far as developers are concerned. Its just that they have to split their 95% with a gazillion others pumping out the exact same crap that an outsiders 5% might make a dent.
But I do see apple making inroads to niches they have lost- I think they still have a chance to win market share.
Apple has even been number one in market share a couple of times, if you count manufacturers by brand. That means their 5% or so has beat Gateway, Dell, Compaq, HP, IBM or Sony, and others slice of the pie on a one to one basis in the past, depending on when and how long you were counting your beans.
Not that it means squat. Overall, they are still 95% to our five percent, as far as developers are concerned. Its just that they have to split their 95% with a gazillion others pumping out the exact same crap that an outsiders 5% might make a dent.
But I do see apple making inroads to niches they have lost- I think they still have a chance to win market share.