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Gaming still sux on Macs

$300 OS to a $130 OS... well how can that compared to a $1500 computer to a $4000 computer.

Oh and logo's/mascots... half eat'en apple and fruity colored computers, to what... a cow, or "dude you're getting a dell", and the IBM commercials. they are all nice, but i wouldnt buy a prebuilt system, if i dont know what it really is or if its integrated.... how can i upgrade it. most prebuilts are made with **** parts. when is the last time you've seen a personal compaq lasting more than 2-3years. not the, servers compaq servers are one of the best in the world as well as the ibm servers.

Also the mention of running partitions, why wont you want to slipt a drive, you now have data all on one drive... get a virus or a crash the entire drive is gone. same as raid/striping a drive, doing that you now have twice to quad the moving parts, thats X2 to X4 the chance of something going wrong.

Also the different types of CPU's for the PC is because its the most widely used platform. Hell Intel and AMD have finally reached power of the IMB and Compaq CPU's and they are still at 1000MHz. Soon the new Power4 and the Alpha will come out and they will be ahead for the rest of the year. CPU's are decided on what the computer is used for in the x86 platform. Just because there are so many different kinds doesnt mean its messed up it means you can pick what you want and how much.

I'm not a peecee lover, my main computer is a sun laptop. the computer for games is a, yes, PC with the morgan core Athlon. all of my servers are linux, and there is a dual G4 500, and yes it is always up to date.
 
Originally posted by jadam
BTW, Windows XP BLOWZ, Ive been helping my uncle fix up his Peecee, first of all, his first motherboard burned with his geforce 2 MX, he then bought a new video card geforce 3 ti 200 a new motherboard, We installed a pirated version of Windowz XP pro, we had frequent lock ups, we then got a new motherboard, guess what lock ups again... We then went out and BOUGHT windowz XP home edition, hmm, what a pain, STILL we had lock ups, not until 3 days later did we find out it was the USB ports on our mother board that was messing it up. my god the time lost. Now we cant even use USB, great...

On a mac that wouldnt happen because their are no jumpers to **** up your computer with. Windowz blowz, its a waist of money. thats why winblowz. I just hope Apple vastly improves opengl performance in OS X.2

WINDOWS SUCKS, my 233mhz Pentuim laptop which im using now, until G5 comes out, I took off Windowz 98 and installed BeOS, guess what the OS is dead, but its about 100x more stable and faster, not once has beos crashed on me, windows every day... and since macs are based on Unix, they kick aSSSSSSSSSSS
Click to expand...

DUDE! What Mobo did you get, almost no IBM Mobo's have jumpers.... everything is plug-in-play. If the USB doesnt work, take it out and get a replacement board... that is if the company has one. All good IBM mobo makers have a warrenty. It could also be user error, if the mobo had jumpers then its screwed up in there somewhere.

Also yes BeOS was awesome, have to say that.... until winME came out they were doing awesome and then dos was taken out.

Plus your statement about macs not having jumpers, thats BS i've seen many old macs with jumpers... about as many as an IBM of the time.
 
Well im talking about the new ibm mobos, plus its a Gigabyte Mobo, and thats a good one ok. A PIII, ohh well.

And I doubt a new alpha is coming out since Compaq is doing like **** now being bought by HP. Hp is using the IA-64 Epic architecture just like the Itanuim, so they wont want any competition. Even though Alphas kick ass. You know AMD's where based on ALPHAS hence the Socket A(lpha). Thats why they are so much better than pentuims. Also arent Power4's the ones used in Dreamcast or was the SuperH. ahh whatever. Alphas kick ass, but no applications for them, hence not real reason to buy, or else i would have an alpha right now. I have no damn clue what the Power4 is. ohh well, who cares. and guess what it wasnt the jumper.

All of a sudden if fixed up by itself, then it got ****ed up again and fixed up again. an annoying process.
 
Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Tandy??? What the hell is a Tandy??? Sounds like some kinda lingerie...
Click to expand...

LOL... Tandy was a company that made leather, they started making electronics and eventually some of the first comsumer computers, that took 20mins to load anything. Radio Shake bought them, and killed the line slowly.
 
hey my first pc was a 486 66mhz O/C to 80mhz, with 8mb Ram, Windows 3.11--->Windows 95, heh 15 floppies to install. and a whopping 200mb HD with 2mb vram hahaha beat that apple.
 
My cousin had a Tandy, he though it was cooler than my 486 (look up) because it could run kings quest I, II, III, and wow IV
 
Originally posted by jadam
Well im talking about the new ibm mobos, plus its a Gigabyte Mobo, and thats a good one ok. A PIII, ohh well.

And I doubt a new alpha is coming out since Compaq is doing like **** now being bought by HP. Hp is using the IA-64 Epic architecture just like the Itanuim, so they wont want any competition. Even though Alphas kick ass. You know AMD's where based on ALPHAS hence the Socket A(lpha). Thats why they are so much better than pentuims. Also arent Power4's the ones used in Dreamcast or was the SuperH. ahh whatever. Alphas kick ass, but no applications for them, hence not real reason to buy, or else i would have an alpha right now. I have no damn clue what the Power4 is. ohh well, who cares. and guess what it wasnt the jumper.

All of a sudden if fixed up by itself, then it got ****ed up again and fixed up again. an annoying process.
Click to expand...

Hot D@mn, someone knows what an Alpha is, yeah I know about the socket A and and AMD buying into the techonlogy when Compaq bought Alpha. Power4 is an IBM CPU, but both CPU's worked on their own OS system which was and still is able to open linux.

If a Power4 ended up in a Deamcast that would be insane, the chip itself is about $5k and the Athlon XP 1600 X2 is the only CPU setup to beet it, by a hair.
 
Go do some research Tandyboy

The Alpha is dead. Compaq killed it. Go read the Register, it's in there somewhere. Seriously, given how you have displayed an obvious lack of knowledge, grammar, and basic debating skills, why should we believe anything you have to say?
 
Re: Why mac sucks for games

Originally posted by Tandy Rules
IBM computer are the only computers made for gaming.

If you want a kicka§§ word processor get a mac, if you want to play games, get an IBM.
Click to expand...

So all PCs are made by IBM? hmmm.....

If you want to play games so badly get a console (PS2,Gamecube,Xbox). Why would you spend 2k+ on a gaming machine?
 
The most awesome gaming computer ever...

Common...you all have to fess up...the most awesome gaming computer was the Apple IIe only to be outdone by the Apple IIgs. I mean...I caught Carmen Sandiego and played Oregon Trail for hours...Heck even at our school that I teach I kept an Apple IIgs in the room...just cause my 5th graders say the games rule...lol...hey how can 21 5th graders be wrong????LOL Sure the graphics remind you of Atari...but they don't care...and that thing has to be 15 yrs old and it still has not broke.....hehe....

My PowerMac 5500's never break down either...but the new Gateway Celerons with that cheesy plastic stand to turn it on it's side (seriously has anyone see that?) One day out of the 4 only one was running. It is funny cause they asked if I wanted to replace the 5500 at my desk with the Gateway...cause they were giving each teacher one along with 4 in each room...and I told them to go away...okay I know it is a lot slower...but it works...pretty sad when a 5-6 year old computer is more reliable then a brand new one...

Other then 50 new iBooks, my school has went PC...because of cost...but I just walk upstairs to the High School PeeCee lab...and it's always a mess and they have not even touched XP yet. Sure I admit the Gateways were freebie's. Since most are built in SD and our governor is worried they might go broke, he bought up a few thousand of them and handed them to every school...I think we got like 80 of them for a K-12 student body of 340. We got a grant for the 50 iBooks and we still have a few 5500's, iMacs, and yeah...my Apple IIgs! We are swimming in computers...lol....but the only ones you can count on is the iMacs and the 5500's.

The Airport network has been the buggy part of the iBooks. Our tech coordinator hates Apple and can't wait till the iBooks (all the Macs for that matter) are replaced with PeeCee notebooks and desktops cause he says they don't work right with his network and they cause all the problems with the PC's (I still don't understand how my old 5500 causes his PC's to crash upstairs...huh) to ... I say the PC notebooks will never hold up to the abuse the kids give them. Oh well he works his butt off keeping those PeeCee's up...He just won't admit he's wrong even when I see him still at the school at 7pm on a Friday night...
 
Should someone tell TandyRules that IBM doen't make all the windows computers ?? And that IBM makes Power PC Processors ? maybe not, it might confuse him.....:confused:
 
to return to the original point

rather than blather on about Tandys and the like.

It may just be me, but the Power Macs are kind of designed for professional design work, film work and 3D modelling. And these new specs look good to me.

If you want to play games go buy a Game X-Cube/sphere/PS2 box (whatever) for £200 or so and stop moaning.
 
oh and just to defend Tandy chap

Although not as much these days, people quite often refer to non-Mac computers as IBM computers (it used to be IBM-compatible computers) bit like Hoovers when we mean Vacuum cleaners and so on. So don't hang the man for that!
 
Originally posted by Tandy Rules




I'm not a peecee lover, my main computer is a sun laptop.
Click to expand...


oh come on folks - he's having a laugh! he has a sun LAPTOP! its an obvious wind up!

still - the basic tenet of this trhead was worth discussing before it got hijacked..
why pay for a gf4 and lose most of its value running ogl?

(ddr also makes not a huge difference to performance judging by the t.bird we have here - its marginal at best it seems)
 
Can we hang him for not knowing what he's talking about?

" Also the mention of running partitions, why wont you want to slipt a drive, you now have data all on one drive... get a virus or a crash the entire drive is gone. same as raid/striping a drive, doing that you now have twice to quad the moving parts, thats X2 to X4 the chance of something going wrong."

In a RAID, you can set it up so that all drives get a copy of the same data, so that if one drive goes, you don't lost any data. You can set it up so that a checksum of sorts is placed on other drives, from which the data can be reconstructed. You can also set it up so that all drives have a small chunk of data so that the data is spread out, so one drive going won't mean loss of data. A RAID is the best possible solution to keep yourself from losing data.

Also, just to inform him, I have one drive that's only data, and two drives that have the OSes (I have a removable bay, so I can swap the hard drives quite easily), one that dual boots, and one that is just games. But that doesn't prevent my data drive from failing.

Also, if you do *safe computing* you are far less likey to get a virus. I have hardware and software firewalls, and I virus scan *every* exectuable of any type (for windows things like *.com, *.bat, *.exe, etc) that I download. I've yet to get a virus. Plus, when you install Linux, you have the option of storing your partition table on a floppy, so in case windows mucks up your partition table (by crashing or by virus), you can boot off the Linux CD, run a restore from the floppy, and be as good as new. So a "crash entire drive is gone" is practically impossible software wise. The only thing to prevent a hard drive failure destroying me data is running a RAID array.


And for the real kicker of stupidity:

"until winME came out they were doing awesome and then dos was taken out. "

I used to use WinME, just to try it out (Of the Win9x line, Win98SE was the best of 'em). Yes, there is a stupid dialog box that *claims* it doesn't support real-mode dos. However, with a registry hack (if you really want me to find it I can, but you're just as capable of going to google as I am) you can disable the 'system restore' crap... and in the same process, it removes the stupid lock on DOS. It's just as much a DOS-based Windows as Win95/98. Windows NT is the one without a DOS kernel, just a DOS emulator. (WinME is still a *shell* in that it uses the DOS kernel as it's very low-level kernel... for proof, after you've done that registry hack, boot from a floppy into DOS, then go into the C:\Windows directory and type in "WIN"... and it boots windows. Look at the WIN.COM file... it's the same file with added extras for each revision of Windows... Windows 3.1 had WIN.COM as well...).


And for terminology, I refer to a vacuum cleaner as a vacuum cleaner, and a tissue as a tissue (not a 'Kleenex'). And every person off-line I know does the same. We refer to PC's as PC's, and so should every other person on this planet. Don't give IBM credit where it ain't do... IBM doesn't make 'standards' for PC's. You're not an 'IBM-compatible' because that means you have to comply with IBM's PC's. IBM has to comply with the standards just like everyone else. They don't make them. Yes, the term 'IBM-compatible' was used back in the 80's and early 90's, but it was wrong then, too. It was probably coined by corporations, because corporations like to think that there is *one* PC manufacturer that everyone complies with. But there isn't. Anyway, enough on that rant.


Back to the main topic...

My Athlon can get 250+ frames per second in Descent 3 (using the timetest that came with Descent 3, it's just a flag... I think it's '-timetest2' or something) at 1024x768x32 with all of the eye candy on, and the detail level turned up higher then the "highest" setting. But since I don't ever plan on getting Quake III, we'll never know the comparable stats, will we?

The idea that Mac's suck at gaming is strange. Numerous PC's suck at gaming, too, if all you're looking at is getting the highest frame rate. Not everyone will or can buy top-of-the-line stuff. So just because the very top end is better, that doesn't mean the rest of it is.

Plus, Mac's support OpenGL. OpenGL is the *best* standard for gaming. Microsoft's DirectX is crap. I timetested Descent 3 under my Radeon's OpenGL drivers and compared it to with DirectX 8.1... and OpenGL got 30/50/20 frames higher! (There are three stats in the timetest, the lowest, the highest, and the mean framerates). So why does the Mac "suck" at games?

"why pay for a gf4 and lose most of its value running ogl? "

Loose most of it's value? How? The very best in gaming use OpenGL because it's the best standard out there, and happens to be on all platforms (Mac, Windows, Linux, etc).
 
Originally posted by jadam
...not until 3 days later did we find out it was the USB ports on our mother board that was messing it up. my god the time lost. Now we cant even use USB, great...

On a mac that wouldnt happen because their are no jumpers to **** up your computer with. Windowz blowz, its a waist of money. thats why winblowz. I just hope Apple vastly improves opengl performance in OS X.2
Click to expand...

Come on guys. Faulty hardware problems are not a Windows issue. My XP box is using its USB ports and it couldn't be happier. In regards to jumpers, I haven't had jumpers on my PC motherboards in many years. Most consumer PC boards these days allow all settings to be configured in the BIOS.

Do you think for one minute that if Apple ported OS X to PC hardware that it would fair any better? Microsoft has a massive moving target with all the different motherboards containing all the different chipsets, etc. I would imagine if Microsoft had 100% control over the hardware as Apple does... What am I saying, zealots will always come up with some catchy way to say the other guy sucks. I mean that "winblowz" word is a stroke of genius.

No I'm not a Microsoft lover. I would prefer to see OS X grab half of Microsoft's market share. The world needs competition, not silly words designed to attack the opponent in much the same way the 12 year old playground bully would.
 
True, but Linux and FreeBSD run on a huge selection of hardware (and I mean huge, much larger then Microsoft wants you to believe), and in most cases do things much, much better then Windows. How is that possible if there is such a large 'moving target'? No, it's that Microsoft has thousand of people working on it's OS. No way can they make that stable and secure when you have that many people working on it. Plus, Microsoft cares more about 'features' and having a version running on every box then they do about 'security'. (And that 'accidentally leaked' memo is just PR. They won't make any difference in their coding. Not unless they started to loose market share.)

No, I'm not a Mac zealot, I use Linux. Personally, I dislike Aqua. However, Apple doesn't have 100% control of the hardware! Please think things through before posting something like that. Yes, Apple controls motherboards and OS. And the default components in the Mac. But there are a large variety of Mac components made by lots of other vendors (hard drives, CD's, mice, printers, etc, etc). Quite a few, actually, who make components for both platforms. So, the MacOS can be geared toward a much tighter integration of defualt hardware. How does Windows do when you add hardware? How does the Mac do when you add hardware? Switch and remove hardware? Windows does a crappy job with that. Unless you remove the drivers first, and then remove the component, and *then* put in the new component, you're going to end up with "phantom" drivers that come and go simply because Windows doesn't remove entries from it's hardware database.

Also, another thing that makes Windows *crap* is the Registry. Any program can enter anything they want in there... and leave it. The Registry grows by leaps and bounds. RegClean does a decent job of fixing things, but even then, it misses problems. When the Registry falls apart from it's own bloated, twisted weight, the only thing you can do is remove the Registry and replace it with System.1st (or reinstall after removing the Registry).

I like how Applications on the Mac platform can't put ddl's anywhere they want, and can't change them at abandon. Windows becomes very cranky when one program modifies a ddl, and then some other program modfies that same ddl, and then Windows expects it to work one way and it doesn't.

Basically Windows sucks because Microsoft has no idea how to program a good OS, not because there is a large hardware selection. My two cents.

This whole rant is about why WIndows's probelm isn't the amount of hardware, it's its design flaws (the Registry, modifiying dll's, too many programmers, etc). Add then the fact that WIndows does a crappy job with OpenGL most of the time and only a half-assed job with DirectX, and you have a crappy platform. For anything. The only thing to compare MacOS X to is other UNIX clones. (MacOS X isn't truly a UNIX any more then Linux is).
 
i'd like to tell all the little newbies here that don't know how to read beyond press-releases to suck my digital ballz.

quake3 is NOT a reliable benchmark, hasn't been for over a year now. just because apple SAYS it can run at blahblahblah, that doesnt mean its a viable benchmark.

the people here make me believe ONE statistic i've read...the percentage of illiterate people in our society. they seem to all sign up for macrumors forums.

just because you can read DOESN'T make you literate, so don't even post it.
 
Originally posted by anshelm
True, but Linux and FreeBSD run on a huge selection of hardware, and in most cases do things much, much better then Windows. How is that possible if there is such a large 'moving target'?
Click to expand...

I would disagree that they do it better. I have used Linux for over five years now, and while I do like it, I can generally find more hardware with fully functional Windows drivers than Linux drivers (Motherboards and chipsets not withstanding). BTW, not saying anything about Linux in general, but it has crashed on me before just as has many different versions of Windows and Mac OS.


Plus, Microsoft cares more about 'features' and having a version running on every box then they do about 'security'.

No arguments.

However, Apple doesn't have 100% control of the hardware! Please think things through before posting something like that.

I did think. What I was refering to was the base foundation of hardware, of which a large chunk of Mac users never change. And you can't say they don't control the hardware of the iMac? Of course the user can plug in various USB and Firewire devices, but my point was that it is easier for Apple since they start with a known and stable foundation.

And while we are here, the "think things through before posting" crack is another one of my dislikes. It is a personal attack. Do you know what I was or was not thinking at the time I was writting that post?

How does Windows do when you add hardware?

I personally have never had a problem in my many years of PC building/customization. But that is probably because I do research into the hardware I buy and check for drivers, owners comments, etc. I know there is a lot of poorly supported hardware out there for PCs. I don't buy that stuff. I would say that the Mac hardware vendors probably on average do a better job.

Also, another thing that makes Windows *crap* is the Registry. Any program can enter anything they want in there... and leave it. The Registry grows by leaps and bounds. RegClean does a decent job of fixing things, but even then, it misses problems. When the Registry falls apart from it's own bloated, twisted weight, the only thing you can do is remove the Registry and replace it System.1st (or reinstall after removing the Registry).

I'm not a huge fan of the registry either. It was the solution to a problem.

I like how Applications on the Mac platform can't put ddl's anywhere they want, and can't change them at abandon. Windows because very cranky when one program modifies a ddl, and then some other program modfies that same ddl, and then Windows expects it to work one way it doesn't.

Programs don't have to put Windows DLLs in the \Windows\System directory. That is up to the folks that write the program and installer. Windows XP will not allow third party installers to overwrite system DLLs. But, I agree allowing it to happen in the first place was not a good idea.

Basically Windows sucks because Microsoft has no idea how to program a good OS, not because there is a large hardware selection. My two cents.

Okay. Do you know any Microsoft's OS programmers personally and what is their programming skill level and knowledge of OS design? And specifically tell me why the OS "sucks". What in the kernel sucks? What about the memory manager sucks? What about the scheduler?

This whole rant is about why WIndows is not 'better' then a Mac. And the fact that's it not the amount of hardware that's the problem, it's Windows basic design flaws (the Registry, modifiying dll's, too many programmers, etc).

Yes and no. It is a problem with the hardware if it is faulty hardware or faulty drivers that are causing the problems. Drivers are generally written by the hardware manufacturer and since they need to be able to operate in the kernel space, they have the ability to crash the entire system. That, and other similar hardware related issues, are in my personal experience, more often the cause of Windows problems. Is Windows better or worse than OS X? Who knows. That is such a subjective question that I don't think it would be possible to answer. Personally I don't care. I use both (and Linux). Are there bugs in Windows? Yes. Are there bugs in OS X? Yes. Are there bugs in Linux? Yes.

Add then the fact that WIndows does a crappy job with OpenGL most of the time and only a half-assed job with DirectX, and you have a crappy platform.

OpenGL drivers are often written specifically to the graphics card. Nvidia writes theirs, ATI writes theirs, etc. Windows does come with a basic set of OpenGL drivers, but they aren't optimized for any specific card that I am aware of. What does that have to do with the OS being unstable? The same goes for DirectX drivers.

The only thing to compare MacOS X to is other UNIX clones. (MacOS X isn't truly a UNIX and more then Linux is).

I personally prefer OS X over Linux. But, I like Linux too.
 
Originally posted by Tandy Rules
$300 OS to a $130 OS... well how can that compared to a $1500 computer to a $4000 computer.

Oh and logo's/mascots... half eat'en apple and fruity colored computers, to what... a cow, or "dude you're getting a dell", and the IBM commercials. they are all nice, but i wouldnt buy a prebuilt system, if i dont know what it really is or if its integrated.... how can i upgrade it. most prebuilts are made with **** parts. when is the last time you've seen a personal compaq lasting more than 2-3years. not the, servers compaq servers are one of the best in the world as well as the ibm servers.

Also the mention of running partitions, why wont you want to slipt a drive, you now have data all on one drive... get a virus or a crash the entire drive is gone. same as raid/striping a drive, doing that you now have twice to quad the moving parts, thats X2 to X4 the chance of something going wrong.

Also the different types of CPU's for the PC is because its the most widely used platform. Hell Intel and AMD have finally reached power of the IMB and Compaq CPU's and they are still at 1000MHz. Soon the new Power4 and the Alpha will come out and they will be ahead for the rest of the year. CPU's are decided on what the computer is used for in the x86 platform. Just because there are so many different kinds doesnt mean its messed up it means you can pick what you want and how much.

I'm not a peecee lover, my main computer is a sun laptop. the computer for games is a, yes, PC with the morgan core Athlon. all of my servers are linux, and there is a dual G4 500, and yes it is always up to date.
Click to expand...

Your not comparing similar computers there sparky... The top-of-the-line G4 tower (dual processor) runs either $3000 or $3650 depending on what you want Apple to install for hardware. You can go with the $3000 model, and add memory and hard drives later. There are RAID cards available for the Mac, that use ATA drives (Sonnett has one that will use ATA133 drives). Also, OS X has RAID software built into it, window$ doesn't. Before you go off on another rant... yes, win2k has 'spanning' which is NOT the same thing.

How many company made peecee's can support up to 4 hard drives without removing plates and such???

IBM makes processors for Apple... they are the ones that have come out with a 1GHz G3 chip. What speeds do you think both AMD and intel are up to these days??? Seems like you are using dated data.

When was the last time you heard of a virus that hit a Mac and did ANY damage?? I can't count the amount of times we have recieved virus warnings at work, that affect peecee's ONLY. In the past 2+ years, we have not had ONE Mac hit by a virus.

The only reason to partition drives, is because window$ couldn't handle anything over 2GB in size, until they fixed it a few years later. Granted, since the peecee world is still vulnerable to viruses, they try to figure out ways to avoid the damage. We don't have that problem on the Mac side.

IF your dual G4 is up to date, then I wonder what you have done to fork it up.
 
Re: Re: Why mac sucks for games

Originally posted by sockdoggy


So all PCs are made by IBM? hmmm.....

If you want to play games so badly get a console (PS2,Gamecube,Xbox). Why would you spend 2k+ on a gaming machine?
Click to expand...

Damn, that hurt... NO!
IBM set the standard... why do you think everything for the PC is IBM, IBM Compatible, IBM Clone. Refering to a PC as an IBM is just saying what it really is... for example: I have a Car (I have a PC); I have a Ford, (I have an IBM)
 
Re: Re: Re: Why mac sucks for games

Originally posted by Tandy Rules


Damn, that hurt... NO!
IBM set the standard... why do you think everything for the PC is IBM, IBM Compatible, IBM Clone. Refering to a PC as an IBM is just saying what it really is... for example: I have a Car (I have a PC); I have a Ford, (I have an IBM)
Click to expand...

Has anyone else even heard those terms being used in the past five years??? The ONLY time I have seen IBM is on either a box of floppies, or on an IBM computer. Everything else is PC, pc clone, pc compatible...

Check the game boxes, they list processors, speeds, hard drives and OS's.
 
Its common knowledge that SOME microsoft programmers are ****.

Windows has improved in XP. But it is a slug, and i wonder how much of a future it has compared with OSX.
 
Maybe that is why they went and made the heXbox... since they can see how people hate paying all that $$ each time they want a newer os that fixes problems that were rampant in the past version.

Also, anyone that installs any m$ operating system before the first service pack, is taking a huge risk. It only takes m$ about a year to year and a half to fix a good chunk of the bugs/problems with their os. They are still fixing all the problems with 2000. I wonder how long it will take them to get xp correct, probably about 6 month after they release the next system.

If Apple hadn't dropped the marketting ball all those years ago, m$ would have the 5% market share.
 
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