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i think he's having us on.

You guys are great btw, thanks so much for the feedback !
No lol I wasn't kidding ! I know stereo's important, but the price made me ask !
lol at the "Nooooooooo!" hahaha....sorry, I iz n00b.

I just got the MSP 5. The guy actually let me take it home while waiting for the HS80 to be back in stock lol. They go for the same price here.

It's fkn heavy, and they look soooooo badass in real life haha...


Do you guys think you can be kind enough to let me know how I should set them up ?

My room's a rectangle, with an opening. It's crowded too...would a picture help, for the sake of accuracy ?

Many thanks again, interesting and kind responses on here...
Alright, gotta go try these babies now !
 
Their being suspended over the ground is important yeah ?...They're fkn heavy though, like 10kg...
 
You should avoid your listening position being in the dead center of the room.

Which orientation in the rectangle are you ?

ahhh yes...good point. I'm just about 1.5meters from the bottom left corner, and the opening is right in front of me.
And no suspension ay ?

Alright, here are 3 pics I took to give you a clear idea:

http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff377/yoe1986/Room1.jpg
General view through the entering door.

http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff377/yoe1986/Room2.jpg
View from sitting on the couch as if taken by the Mac on pic 1. This is the 'opening'.

http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff377/yoe1986/Room3.jpg
A close look at where I sit to record.
 
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http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar02/articles/monitors.asp

triangle_mar2007.gif


So you need a desk and some monitor stands to begin with.
 
Hi, I think you're well on your way. You have the most important, writing skills and good playing skills. Recording is a lot like creating the music, there is some theory to be learned and a lot of practice.

Having a good listening environnement is the basis. If you aren't sure if what you're hearing is the speaker or the sound source, it's practically impossible to mix like you want it to sound.

Consider reading this http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=29283 it's a very well written thread intended for people with some experience recording but can't get what they want quite nailed. It holds a lot of theory but is very very well explained. Having read a books myself, I'd say that forum is mile above, nothing happens by magic.
 
Thanks a lot of the equilateral triangle scheme there...
what kind of stands for 10 kilo monsters though ??...

And Paolo, I hate sound engineering and mastering and all that bs, I'm an artist (I know many ppl say so, but it's just objectively true) - but I suppose one rule in this world is - you want something done well, gotta do it yourself.


Anybody master with ozone 4 from iZotope ?
I'm having hair-pulling moments as we speak with the clipping when I BARELY even touch the EQ; save the EQ setup I really want...

And it's funny, but comparing the mastering setup I assembled before getting Ozone with purely native GB stuff (AUFilter, visual EQ, compressor) I seem to get a better sound than my best (and at least fairly competent) effort with Ozone !!!
Goooooooooooddaaammmmmnnnn this is annoying the fk out of me !!

I might just use my personal GB Master preset for all songs and send the wretched copy to some CD labels...
perseverance, perseverance, what a bitch...
 
Thanks a lot of the equilateral triangle scheme there...
what kind of stands for 10 kilo monsters though ??...

And Paolo, I hate sound engineering and mastering and all that bs, I'm an artist (I know many ppl say so, but it's just objectively true) - but I suppose one rule in this world is - you want something done well, gotta do it yourself.


Anybody master with ozone 4 from iZotope ?
I'm having hair-pulling moments as we speak with the clipping when I BARELY even touch the EQ; save the EQ setup I really want...

And it's funny, but comparing the mastering setup I assembled before getting Ozone with purely native GB stuff (AUFilter, visual EQ, compressor) I seem to get a better sound than my best (and at least fairly competent) effort with Ozone !!!
Goooooooooooddaaammmmmnnnn this is annoying the fk out of me !!

I might just use my personal GB Master preset for all songs and send the wretched copy to some CD labels...
perseverance, perseverance, what a bitch...


I use a set of samson monitor stands, they are rated at 18kg(per stand).

MS200.jpg


They do the job, but are easy to push over with larger speakers. However I don't charge around knocking things over around my studio so its not a problem.

I chose them mainly because of the adjustable height, although they are cheap compared to similar products

I haven't used any of the izotope plugins but never put anything on the master anyway.

Try and get your mix sounding good without using any plugins on the master bus.

Look into gain structure and subtractive eqing as well.

Have a look at the chart below, it shows what frequencies different instruments play at. This will help when making "space" for the different instruments in your track.

frequency_chart_lg.gif
 
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Yeah, I don't rely 100% on the mastering, I hear you.

But mastering is also a necessity.

Gain structure: I've worked my ass off for my distortion on Guitar Rig, I've gotten to something reasonable/even pretty good. But the really cool distortion on GR 4 ("Big Monster") always carries that shroud, reverb-like aspect that prompted me to start the thread in the first place.

I've just never found a truly great disto out there.
Of course, guitar 1 and 2 play different plugins so put together you've got a homogeneous, clear sound even for fast riffing...
 
First, I would add a little reverb to the drums. I know that death metal drums tend to be dry, but I'd still add a little. Second, I would analyze your tracks and see what frequencies are common. Mixes can sound muddy if two different instruments are using the same or similar frequencies.


1. You MUST have flat, neutral monitors for mixing. Also, do a mix, then burn it to CD and play it in various audio systems.

2. Despite what some people say, hardware does matter. I would advise you to buy a better audio interface such as an Apogee Duet or RME Fireface when you can afford it. They have much better A/D conversion and preamps than the lower end stuff. Sure, they might not have as many inputs as other interfaces, but they are better. I would rather have two inputs of pro quality sound than eight mediocre ones. Quality over quantity.

3. How are you recording guitar? Using a mic'd cab or with a POD(or similar)? I have found it hard to get a good sound from PODs.

4. If you want very good, quick results, buy the Chris Lord-Alge plug-ins by Waves. They are a pretty penny but produce excellent sounds with very little tweaking. I would start with the guitar and drum plug-ins first, you can download the demo versions from Waves.com.
 
First, I would add a little reverb to the drums. I know that death metal drums tend to be dry, but I'd still add a little. Second, I would analyze your tracks and see what frequencies are common. Mixes can sound muddy if two different instruments are using the same or similar frequencies.


Yeah that's a very good point. But it would be hell to find which ones...I used to put reverb on the drums, but then again, the least the better...makes the whole mix so foggy. But a little at times, yes I do.

1. You MUST have flat, neutral monitors for mixing. Also, do a mix, then burn it to CD and play it in various audio systems.
Yeah I keep doin that haha...I try one mix/mastering setup then another, and another and on about 3 different sound systems. I've got a nice pair of flat monitors right now (Yamaha MSP5), will trade em for HS80 when they get here...

2. Despite what some people say, hardware does matter. I would advise you to buy a better audio interface such as an Apogee Duet or RME Fireface when you can afford it. They have much better A/D conversion and preamps than the lower end stuff. Sure, they might not have as many inputs as other interfaces, but they are better. I would rather have two inputs of pro quality sound than eight mediocre ones. Quality over quantity.

You mean the PreSonus Audiobox ain't good enough ?...I'm pretty sure I'd get the same sound out of this software. I mean, GRig wouldn't sound substantially better, would it ??...

3. How are you recording guitar? Using a mic'd cab or with a POD(or similar)? I have found it hard to get a good sound from PODs.

Dunno what those are. I've got my extremely-old-but -still-workin Ibanez, the USB AudioBox sound card and that's it.

4. If you want very good, quick results, buy the Chris Lord-Alge plug-ins by Waves. They are a pretty penny but produce excellent sounds with very little tweaking. I would start with the guitar and drum plug-ins first, you can download the demo versions from Waves.com.

Are those for metal distortion ? Could you recommend anything besides GRig 4 ? I've tried a bunch before. Red Skull, but way too dry. "Trash" they said was good but I found ridiculous. There's really just GRig... :(
 
You mean the PreSonus Audiobox ain't good enough ?
I don't think it's a limiting factor at the moment.

IMHO setting up a good listening environment (see newuser2310's posts) and reading a bit about mixing (paolo-'s link looks like a good place to start) will get you there rather quickly since you don't start from zero (the sample you posted sounds better than some postings might suggest).
 
I don't think it's a limiting factor at the moment.

IMHO setting up a good listening environment (see newuser2310's posts) and reading a bit about mixing (paolo-'s link looks like a good place to start) will get you there rather quickly since you don't start from zero (the sample you posted sounds better than some postings might suggest).

Yeah I think so too...I'm reading Paolo's article, hope it gives me concrete solutions...
 
First, I would add a little reverb to the drums. I know that death metal drums tend to be dry, but I'd still add a little. Second, I would analyze your tracks and see what frequencies are common. Mixes can sound muddy if two different instruments are using the same or similar frequencies.


Yeah that's a very good point. But it would be hell to find which ones...I used to put reverb on the drums, but then again, the least the better...makes the whole mix so foggy. But a little at times, yes I do.

1. You MUST have flat, neutral monitors for mixing. Also, do a mix, then burn it to CD and play it in various audio systems.
Yeah I keep doin that haha...I try one mix/mastering setup then another, and another and on about 3 different sound systems. I've got a nice pair of flat monitors right now (Yamaha MSP5), will trade em for HS80 when they get here...

2. Despite what some people say, hardware does matter. I would advise you to buy a better audio interface such as an Apogee Duet or RME Fireface when you can afford it. They have much better A/D conversion and preamps than the lower end stuff. Sure, they might not have as many inputs as other interfaces, but they are better. I would rather have two inputs of pro quality sound than eight mediocre ones. Quality over quantity.

You mean the PreSonus Audiobox ain't good enough ?...I'm pretty sure I'd get the same sound out of this software. I mean, GRig wouldn't sound substantially better, would it ??...

3. How are you recording guitar? Using a mic'd cab or with a POD(or similar)? I have found it hard to get a good sound from PODs.

Dunno what those are. I've got my extremely-old-but -still-workin Ibanez, the USB AudioBox sound card and that's it.

4. If you want very good, quick results, buy the Chris Lord-Alge plug-ins by Waves. They are a pretty penny but produce excellent sounds with very little tweaking. I would start with the guitar and drum plug-ins first, you can download the demo versions from Waves.com.

Are those for metal distortion ? Could you recommend anything besides GRig 4 ? I've tried a bunch before. Red Skull, but way too dry. "Trash" they said was good but I found ridiculous. There's really just GRig... :(

You are talking about the general case. Yes a better A/D would be nice but in this specific case listen to the sample recording I just don't hear a problem with a raw recording quality. Same with some of the other suggestions they are good if you were writing a book but is this specific case his problem is not these things. Except the last suggestion. Yes that software has good mastering presets. But then Logic's are not bad either.

I'm pretty sure in this case the problem is work flow related. It sounds to my ears as if the tracks were mastered before they were combined. The result sounds like what it is, a bunch of tracks put together on a computer, not like a band recorded live. I think this is just an order f operations thing.

BTW until you can spend big $$$ for a microphone the Audio Box will not be the weak link in the system and will be better than you need if the end product is a CD recording
 
You are talking about the general case. Yes a better A/D would be nice but in this specific case listen to the sample recording I just don't hear a problem with a raw recording quality. Same with some of the other suggestions they are good if you were writing a book but is this specific case his problem is not these things. Except the last suggestion. Yes that software has good mastering presets. But then Logic's are not bad either.

I'm pretty sure in this case the problem is work flow related. It sounds to my ears as if the tracks were mastered before they were combined. The result sounds like what it is, a bunch of tracks put together on a computer, not like a band recorded live. I think this is just an order f operations thing.

BTW until you can spend big $$$ for a microphone the Audio Box will not be the weak link in the system and will be better than you need if the end product is a CD recording

Cool !
I don't even know how microphones work on a guitar...you stick them on the bridge ??....
Anyways, yes I'll get a decent sound for the album for sure. It won't sound "demo" as much now.

Mastering's a bitch though, a big fat fkn bitch ! You're never satisfied with it, and by the time you take an hour break and get back to it, you feel like "wait, there's still too much high mid !"
 
Mastering's a bitch though, a big fat fkn bitch ! You're never satisfied with it, and by the time you take an hour break and get back to it, you feel like "wait, there's still too much high mid !"

can you describe what you do at mixtime, and what you do at mastering time?
 
can you describe what you do at mixtime, and what you do at mastering time?

Well mixing to me is going through the little details (like specific instrument sound and tone, removing/adding a sample or notes), adjusting the volume of every respective instrument, trying to make them all homogeneous and cohesive.

Mastering is a mild EQ control, and then 3 multiband modules (harmonic exciter, dynamics and spacing), a tiny touch of reverb...
 
(like specific instrument sound and tone, removing/adding a sample or notes),
i call that composition and arrangement.

adjusting the volume of every respective instrument, trying to make them all homogeneous and cohesive.
yes.

Mastering is a mild EQ control, and then 3 multiband modules (harmonic exciter, dynamics and spacing), a tiny touch of reverb...
yes EQ and compression/limiting can occur at mastering, and yes song sequence and spacing will occur there.

"no" to reverb. it happens, but that should happen at record/mix time.

imho there should be more EQ and compression happening at mix time, to get the song's dynamics correct, get the soundstage built, get the instruments to play together in stereo.

any EQ at master should be to get the songs to sound uniform to one another and translate across systems. dynamics are to get songs to have uniform volume relative to one another and (controversial) to make it as loud as possible.

these 3 are mostly distinct from one another, require different skills, and should be treated as such. i mostly work in the arranging/recording/mixing realms, i wouldn't dream of mastering anything.
 
i call that composition and arrangement.


yes.


yes EQ and compression/limiting can occur at mastering, and yes song sequence and spacing will occur there.

"no" to reverb. it happens, but that should happen at record/mix time.

imho there should be more EQ and compression happening at mix time, to get the song's dynamics correct, get the soundstage built, get the instruments to play together in stereo.

any EQ at master should be to get the songs to sound uniform to one another and translate across systems. dynamics are to get songs to have uniform volume relative to one another and (controversial) to make it as loud as possible.

these 3 are mostly distinct from one another, require different skills, and should be treated as such. i mostly work in the arranging/recording/mixing realms, i wouldn't dream of mastering anything.

Yeah, it's a bitch. A big fat, ugly bitch. Not as insanely complex as people make it, but still an array of skills to...'master'.

All valuable info...helps me structure my take on the whole thing...thanks !
I honestly feel with the material I have I've done a decent job, even pretty good I'm sure people with experience would say...I just want it to sound homogeneous, un-demo like, and at least hear the riffage going on clearly considering the effort recording it.

I don't know how I'll get all the songs at the same volume level, and I've used different mastering setups for almost each of the songs !...I hope it'll somehow "work".
But it was a necessity. Some songs just NEED more treble, high-mid etc....and some songs have way different instruments...
 
i don't master my own stuff. i mix it until it sounds right to me. then the mastering guy listens and adjusts it to compensate for deficiencies in my room and ears.

that's important -- if i mastered my own stuff, i wouldn't change anything because it already sounds right. mastering should be done 1) by someone else, and 2) by someone who's listening to the material fresh. you're way too close to the material to make such decisions.
 
zimv20 said it properly. It can be broken down into three main sections, recording, mixing and mastering. Working with a method will help you get things done instead of running around in circles. Here's kind of how most people do it.

Compose and arrange, I think you're already good at that and know what it means. Make the music and decide what will play what and when.

Record: record to tracks with as little effect as possible and as cleanly as possible. For your guitar just use a preset that's close enough, don't really bother for now. This means laying down your midi tracks too.

Clean up: this means making sure that all your dubs sound nice, set a noise gate if you need one, use a high pass or low pass filter if need be (for example on a flute the low frequencies aren't useful so you would cut them out). And set automations to volume to make sure it stays consistent, this is usually for vocals that are done in many takes, sometimes you get some parts that are way to soft compared to others.

Mixing: this is the core of it but if you're methodical it can be easier. Now is the time where you will choose the sounds that you will use. This means setting up your amp effects, choosing your drums sounds... Then, it's all about making the sounds work with each other: compressors and eq but most of all relative volumes! Don't solo things to much during mixing, it's not unusual to have tracks that don't really sound good on there own but make the mix come together, like rhythm guitars sometimes sound thin when you solo them but they fit between the bass and lead. Then there's space design, you'll want to send your tracks to a reverb bus, you make a sound stage by putting some things in front and others further back. Usually drums will get more reverb than guitars for example. I personally pan my track near the of the mixing, when I'm trying to make my sounds work together, eq-ing and setting the levels.

Mastering happens afterwards and is usually done to a bounced track. Working strictly with the whole mix. Usually it's not much more than eq and compression. Making sure that the mix sounds good on any speaker and that it can be plenty loud. Also for albums, it's making sure that the sound between the tracks is consistant.

There's a million different ways to go about it but it's important to remember that some things impact other so doing them in an order keeps you from going back and around to the same stuff. Say at the very end of you mixing you decide that the low frequencies in you original guitar signal not good and mainly your palm hitting the strings, you put a high pass filter. Since the sound isn't as loud, you're not getting as much distortion so you raise the gain on the amp. But since there are more high frequencies in the original sound, after the distortion, you're getting even more high frequencies so you'll probably have to take look at the eq and level as well. So that's one step that if you did first would have saved you like ten steps later on.

I know you're starting out and probably learn a lot as you go along but when you start running around in circles, it's a good time to take a break. I'm not saying that I completely follow a plan either, it's a creative endeavour it's good to change your mind half-way. Actually, I make electronic music so I spend most of my time running around in circles :p.
 
zimv20 said it properly. It can be broken down into three main sections, recording, mixing and mastering. Working with a method will help you get things done instead of running around in circles. Here's kind of how most people do it.

Compose and arrange, I think you're already good at that and know what it means. Make the music and decide what will play what and when.

Record: record to tracks with as little effect as possible and as cleanly as possible. For your guitar just use a preset that's close enough, don't really bother for now. This means laying down your midi tracks too.

Clean up: this means making sure that all your dubs sound nice, set a noise gate if you need one, use a high pass or low pass filter if need be (for example on a flute the low frequencies aren't useful so you would cut them out). And set automations to volume to make sure it stays consistent, this is usually for vocals that are done in many takes, sometimes you get some parts that are way to soft compared to others.

Mixing: this is the core of it but if you're methodical it can be easier. Now is the time where you will choose the sounds that you will use. This means setting up your amp effects, choosing your drums sounds... Then, it's all about making the sounds work with each other: compressors and eq but most of all relative volumes! Don't solo things to much during mixing, it's not unusual to have tracks that don't really sound good on there own but make the mix come together, like rhythm guitars sometimes sound thin when you solo them but they fit between the bass and lead. Then there's space design, you'll want to send your tracks to a reverb bus, you make a sound stage by putting some things in front and others further back. Usually drums will get more reverb than guitars for example. I personally pan my track near the of the mixing, when I'm trying to make my sounds work together, eq-ing and setting the levels.

Mastering happens afterwards and is usually done to a bounced track. Working strictly with the whole mix. Usually it's not much more than eq and compression. Making sure that the mix sounds good on any speaker and that it can be plenty loud. Also for albums, it's making sure that the sound between the tracks is consistant.

There's a million different ways to go about it but it's important to remember that some things impact other so doing them in an order keeps you from going back and around to the same stuff. Say at the very end of you mixing you decide that the low frequencies in you original guitar signal not good and mainly your palm hitting the strings, you put a high pass filter. Since the sound isn't as loud, you're not getting as much distortion so you raise the gain on the amp. But since there are more high frequencies in the original sound, after the distortion, you're getting even more high frequencies so you'll probably have to take look at the eq and level as well. So that's one step that if you did first would have saved you like ten steps later on.

I know you're starting out and probably learn a lot as you go along but when you start running around in circles, it's a good time to take a break. I'm not saying that I completely follow a plan either, it's a creative endeavour it's good to change your mind half-way. Actually, I make electronic music so I spend most of my time running around in circles :p.

Thanks a lot for all the effort there. It all makes sense, and I must say I follow almost everything you say. The high/low pass filters I haven't tried...I should.

And what you're both saying about mastering being too subjective, I agree with. We're like a fish in a bowl, and can't see outside it.
But I'm still confident about my ears :)

The problem is as you've mentioned, every song needs to be coherent with its mastering among the rest for an album...and I'm actually mastering every single song differently !
I'm sure the difference won't be humongous in the end, but still noticeable if attended to.

But I can't help it: some songs have loads of samples/industrial synths, others are pure death metal and don't need as much treble...
 
Complete and utter tripe

You don't need to spend thousands of pounds/dollars on equipment, many people produce/record to a professional standard with very modest setups.

No speaker is perfect, its more important to learn your speakers, ie what they do well and what they don't. Having decent monitors and your room treated is ideal, however mixing on headphones can work as long as you know them(see above). Try your track on a variety of different systems to a/b your mix.

x1000, knowing your speakers/headphones and where the lack/flatter sound will help
 
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