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But it does seam that some US citizens have a hard time dealing with the fact that other countries have their own legal system, their own systems of governance that US based companies need to comply with. Just because something is admissible in US does not make it universally good by any means.


I have no issue with other countries having their own laws.

What I do have a problem with, is the attacking of American companies. Instead of having conversations with Apple, Google, etc, the governments are painted as the enemy of the consumer. The assumption is that the American companies make/take money from people and that the people are being cheated in the process.

Tech companies have given people the world at their fingertips. A generation ago, there was no internet, no way to communicate half way around the world with out paying through the nose.

That is what I mean by, I’m tired of the EU dictating to American companies.
 
This is not what’s being asked here, no modular devices with socketed components. The devices stay the same as they are, it’s just about availability of the parts that can already be replaced, case, display, battery, camera modules, logic board.

The EU's Ecodesign Directive allows the EU to require design requirements and in a draft of a survey having been done for the Commission there are design requirements which limits the freedom of the designer.

F.ex. it would become illegal to sell a phone in which the battery couldn't be replaced.
 
What I do have a problem with, is the attacking of American companies.

Do you really think EU is attacking American companies? What is the angle here?
Have you ever been in Europe in business or pleasure, preferably both?

EU is not dictating to American Companies in their soil any more than the US dictates foreign companies in theirs.

What are you talking about?

No one in EU paints governments as the enemy of consumers. At least never heard that kind of stance. Where have you got that one from?

Don’t be absurd.

EDIT: To be honest the way I see it, this topic does not even affect Apple much if any effect at all. It has no dificulteis meeting the criteria. The author of the post make it look like it is something applied to Apple only when its precisely the opposite, its applied to many … what is his agenda here? Irresponsible click bait?

The only American company making an interesting smarphone is Apple … there is little difficulty in finding iPhone parts due to huge volumes of sales. But the rest is Asian. Samsung, LG, Sony, Huawai, Xiaom, OnePlus … these are probably the most affected ones with hugely wide portfolios and rarely providing updated for more than 3 years. Some one or two and that is it.

Paranoia seams to be running deep … too deep. Think man, think!
 
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7 years is daft, clearly the EU are clueless, 5 years yes that’s doable but 7 that’s not practical.

And for repairs yet again EU are clueless, all any company had to do say yes tho cost you more than the item worth at that time so nobody will.

Let’s take today someone has an iPhone 4S are they really going to spend money on getting it repaired or call it a day and get a new phone.

for repairs on phones 3-4 years is a practical sensible time not 7 that’s dumb
 
Apple is an American company, Spotify is competing in America. Instead of filing complaints in the US, the chose the perceived more friendly venue.

If they thought that their problem was legit, they would have filed in the US.
Spotify is not an American company.
European laws would only dictate apple App Store in EU and would have no effect on USA. apple being an American company have no impact on where they are competing. American laws and contracts have no jurisdiction in EU as long as a European is pressing that purchase button

EU and USA do not have the same laws and the merit of the case in US courts aren’t relevant in EU courts. It quite literally common law vs Civil law
 
Design led to the invention of the iMac (which basically shoved an entire desktop behind the screen of the computer).
Actually the original Macintosh is an all-in-one design, and a cute one at that. I still fondly remember my Color Classic. Doesn‘t run now. Maybe I’ll convert it into a mini fish tank 😆
 
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I like how you posted what you wanted me to see (especially when you posted an untruth) but you didn't post the facts that come directly from Apple's own website. See below: 😉


From Apple in regards to the Consumer Law:
"Any defect or non-conformity of goods with the contract which becomes apparent within 6 months of delivery are presumed to have existed at the time of delivery. After the expiry of this 6-month period, the burden to prove that the defect or non-conformity of goods with the contract existed on delivery generally shifts to the consumer.

Let's leave it here and end this discussion because frankly when people cherrypick info and make incorrect blanket statements such as yours I highlighted I'm done here.

Yes, but most laws don't state what specifically is a defect so manufacturers have leeway as to what is fit for purpose.


Which would add complexity and benefit a tiny fraction of the user base, so it's a bad tradeoff.



Why? Especially for custom parts that are unique to one company.


I doubt companies want to give up the details of their design to competitors.


I doubt board level repairs would be easy or cheap, considering the tools and skill required. If you're good enough to do them you are going to charge appropriately and not target the folks that want a new screen for $50.



If you don't do regular backups that's your fault.
These things are specified
You have absolutely no idea what other consequences come as a result of that dictate. Supply chains can be incredibly complex. Perhaps the supplier of a component that is single sourced (unique) goes out of business. How can the company enforce the supply of that as a spare? Redesign? Who's going to do it? How many people and how much overhead is going to go into this X year support requirement? How much of the cost of all that overhead is passed on to the consumer (YOU!!). This doesn't happen for free! All because we wanted to force them to offer a replacement component instead of a replacement unit. This is just more feel good crap that the government has no business being in.
That is quite literally not my problem if a company only purchased one copy of something before they went bankrupt instead of a hundred. And if their product becomes to expensive from poor supply chain management they will go out of business and quite literally their own problem for being short sighted and I as a consumer will take my business elsewhere.

replacment components are better and cheaper than complete unit swaps, let the parts be available for random repair shops to do the work for you.

Nd I don’t know if you noticed, but some companies have crazy high margins, and prices already, they can increase the cost and get less revenue or swallow the cost and get some goodwill.
 
Mandating a longer device lifespan will surely force designers to think ahead of time and implement what I call "forward-thinking design" rather than just focusing on satisfying what's happening now.
I feel it would require these companies to be able to continue monetising their products after the sale. ie: move to a subscription-based model. This is basically what we are seeing in the App Store now, where more productivity apps are migrating from a 1-time paid model to an ongoing subscription.

Would buyers of a security webcam be willing to continue paying a monthly fee to offset the server costs? Would enough people be willing to pay to keep the business sustainable? Is the willingness to pay a monthly fee even a guarantee that the product will continue to receive timely updates and support?

The alternative would be that in the long run, the only companies capable of sustaining this sort of business model are the larger companies like Apple, Google and Amazon who can afford to keep subsidising these costs using profits from their core business (eg: buy an iPhone, get get iCloud storage). Something like apple music doesn't need to be profitable right away, it just needs to keep consumers using iPhones.

So I would argue that it's not just the companies that need to change; consumers' mindsets need to change as well. If you want to support your favourite brands and developers and ensure that they continue to stick around for the long term, then be prepared to pay more when the time comes for it.
 
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complete buffoonery. Storage and manufacturing of parts that will most likely never be used? Technology is like fresh produce with an expiration date.
If repairs are too expensive, the manufacturer can supply a replacement of equivalent performance and features from their current (or more recent) range, which for cheap androids is quite a plausible option.
And what happens when companies don’t or can’t comply?
Depends how good they are at phoenixing without getting prosecuted.
 
Depends how good they are at phoenixing without getting prosecuted.

Apart from Apple and Samsung and maybe Google, how many other smartphone OEMs are there on the market who will be able to commit to this sort of long-term support?

You want to entrench the current market duopoly, that’s how you go about entrenching the current status quo. By introducing new legislation that will be financially prohibitive to new entrants and existing smaller players.

Wait…what am I complaining about again?
 
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Apple already does that. Older versions of iOS/iPadOS/WatchOS still get security fixes. Those devices do not receive major new version of the operating system. the S2 apple watch on my wrist is one of those. I still get fixes, but it's 'stuck' on 6.3.
For seven years? Including hardware support? I didn't know that.
 
For seven years? (1) Including hardware support? (2) I didn't know that.

(1) In case of macOS yes. In case of iOS I believe is 5-7 years.
(2) Yes, parts are available. Apple does not sell them but can be found after market.

But there is a point made that is pertinent. Don’t think that HW startups and such can sustain such level of commitment. So I guess there must be something in the regulation not to strangle innovation in the device space, say a Tier based mechanism.

A standard of 7 years seams to be a stretch over all. Furthermore don’t think the challenge is here. But the fact is that companies are indeed refusing to repair their products right out of the gate. This is happening right now. What can we do about it? Nothing can’ be the solution. (Oh we can only repair a cracked piece of glass … really? Business sustainability?). Replacing a battery is not a repair, nothing is broken in such circunstance. Would you say replacing a battery on you PS5 controller to be a repair? Absurd.

PS: The subscription model on HW suggested by a poster is already coming regardless of regulation aiming to protect consumer properties. The question is not so much business sustainability but if the market can sustain profits of 60-70% along with passive revenue schemes. Don’t think its fair to talk with consumers with such premisses disguised as sustainability … hey … but one can only try right?
 
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Its impressive how the reaction to this is in other American forums and websites is totally the opposite. Here people talk about EU attacking American companies as a reaction … crazy crazy world. How poisoned is the discussion here around anything that may provoke a change in Apple practices. So much poison that stinks.
 
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Security, yes. Repair parts, maybe not so much. Apple could probably do it, but android makers don’t build in the same quantity that Apple does.

I really dislike the EU dictating to American companies.
Thank God we have the EU. It actually sticks up for consumers.
 
Yes, but most laws don't state what specifically is a defect so manufacturers have leeway as to what is fit for purpose.
1: laws are very specific in this. Defect= not working as advertised and presented. Any defect within 6 months the manufacturer must prove the customer is responsible, then up to 3-5~ years depending on eu region you as a customer must prove it’s a design defect (very easy to do) such as same computer model known to have the exact same problem after some time or repair shop can prove it. Battery having 80% before 1000 cycles, component breaking, buggy software, bad paint quality etc is all defects. Anything less than exactly what you expect from a new or similar product is by law a defect.
Which would add complexity and benefit a tiny fraction of the user base, so it's a bad tradeoff.
2: this benefits everyone who ever goes to an independent repair shops. How does it ad complexity? Me having a schematic, heatgun, pliers and magnifying glass to replace a bad chip. I can objectively show you any repair by apple is many times more expensive than actually fixing the problem with a chip swap.
Like with the M1 mac having a bug shortening the drives live dramatically will turn it into an expensive paperweight instead of just changing this one part in the future is bad for the environment.

Why? Especially for custom parts that are unique to one company.
3:why not? Why should apple forbid Samsungs from selling their flash memory or Texas Instruments chips used in my phone? Uneque parts should still be available for everyone on the free market to purchase instead of tearing apart already broken computers. How is this beneficial to customers to put it behind artificial walls?
I doubt companies want to give up the details of their design to competitors.
4:it is board schematics showing what chip does what and goes where, also known as an electro diagram, not a blueprint how it’s constructed. Nothing confidential.
I doubt board level repairs would be easy or cheap, considering the tools and skill required. If you're good enough to do them you are going to charge appropriately and not target the folks that want a new screen for $50.
5: it’s extremely easy and you need only a few tools and steady hands to literally swap every part on an iPhone 12 plus. Only problem is some parts are artificially locked behind a verification window only apple does for batteries and camera etc. apple is making it extremely expensive by making parts hard to get, instead of buying 1$ chip I might need to use an already broken phone and cost me 100$ In comparison.
you can today build an iPhone from almost scratch with donor phones and “illegal” original parts from the factories, but it’s hard because apple tries to make it as difficult as possible.
If you don't do regular backups that's your fault.

6: how do you do when your screen breaks during a video editing? Or as you write your essay the power delivery IC fries. Do you just say tough luck as nobody is allowed to replace that chip instead of complete motherboard swap? Should you backup every second?
 
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EU should also start doing the same to Android Makers aswell. Most Android phones get a max of 2yrs updates. Why do they want to dictate their rules only on Apple which has a minority market share compared to Android.
 
EU should also start doing the same to Android Makers aswell. Most Android phones get a max of 2yrs updates. Why do they want to dictate their rules only on Apple which has a minority market share compared to Android.

Tell us you didn’t read the article without saying you didn’t read the article.
 
1: laws are very specific in this. Defect= not working as advertised and presented. Any defect within 6 months the manufacturer must prove the customer is responsible, then up to 3-5~ years depending on eu region you as a customer must prove it’s a design defect (very easy to do) such as same computer model known to have the exact same problem after some time or repair shop can prove it. Battery having 80% before 1000 cycles, component breaking, buggy software, bad paint quality etc is all defects. Anything less than exactly what you expect from a new or similar product is by law a defect.

However, none of what you say is written into law, as far as I can tell, but rather your interpretation of what a defect constitutes. IFAICT, the law places the burden on the consumer to prove an item is defective after a fixed period, which means a manufacturer can claim those ae not defects and leave it up to the consumer to prove otherwise.

For example, batteries lose capacity as they age. Apple sets 80% as its threshold, probably because most Mac batteries will stay at that level for at least 3 years so AppleCare need not cover them in most cases. Mine reached <80% 1 month before AC ran out so they replace it (and the entire top case) for free.

Paint? The machine is still fit for purpose and paint does wear.

Software? Well, reformat the drive to the latest version of the OS. If it works as delivered then, there is no defect. If it fails when you add another program, then it's an issue with that program, not the machine.

My point is there is a lot of grey areas for a shop (as the seller who is often liable for repairs) to claim the defect did not exist at sale, as many laws require in order for it to be covered. Good sellers will take care of issues, but you still are relying on the goodwill of the seller in the end. My experience with Apple has been great, which is one reason I stick with them. YMMV

2: this benefits everyone who ever goes to an independent repair shops. How does it ad complexity? Me having a schematic, heatgun, pliers and magnifying glass to replace a bad chip. I can objectively show you any repair by apple is many times more expensive than actually fixing the problem with a chip swap.

To d the repairs you describe means designing for sockets, etc, which increases size, introduces more wiring since you won't have all in one chips, etc to do IC level repairs.

3:why not? Why should apple forbid Samsungs from selling their flash memory or Texas Instruments chips used in my phone? Uneque parts should still be available for everyone on the free market to purchase instead of tearing apart already broken computers. How is this beneficial to customers to put it behind artificial walls?

If a company contracts out a unique chip design they own the IP and should be free to decide how it can be sold. As for generic parts, those can be bought.

4:it is board schematics showing what chip does what and goes where, also known as an electro diagram, not a blueprint how it’s constructed. Nothing confidential.

In general, yes. Bt in some case companies may want to obfuscate certain parts for whatever reason and should not be forced to reveal their designs.

5: it’s extremely easy and you need only a few tools and steady hands to literally swap every part on an iPhone 12 plus. Only problem is some parts are artificially locked behind a verification window only apple does for batteries and camera etc. apple is making it extremely expensive by making parts hard to get, instead of buying 1$ chip I might need to use an already broken phone and cost me 100$ In comparison.

That is not a board level repair, but simply swap and hope the problem is fixed.
you can today build an iPhone from almost scratch with donor phones and “illegal” original parts from the factories, but it’s hard because apple tries to make it as difficult as possible.

Nothing new there. I added bluetooth to my BMW with donor parts, a wiring pinout swap, and some coding.
If spare parts were readily available, I bet the cost of rolling your own will exceed buying a new one; as it does in other industries, such as automotive, where yo can in they do just that. If it didn't the phone market would be flooded with 100% functional phones that compete with the manufacturers phones; although with no warranty or assurances they were actually properly assembled. My guess is, if you could get the mother board, knockoffs with cheap screes, shells, and cameras would start appearing. Those knockoffs, many of which would be sold as genuine, would hurt Apple's reputation; especially when people come in for service and are told, Sorry, you've been fooled.

I'm not against repairability, in fact I like fixing my stuff instead of throwing it out, often to the chagrin of my wife when she finds the washer torn apart in the laundry room as I replace a faulty valve for 30Euros instead of spring a 1000 for a new machine. However, the drive to smaller, faster, cheaper electronics has made repairability difficult; to the point where doing so would require consumers to accept radically different products, which most consumers would complain about.

6: how do you do when your screen breaks during a video editing? Or as you write your essay the power delivery IC fries. Do you just say tough luck as nobody is allowed to replace that chip instead of complete motherboard swap? Should you backup every second?

Yup. I do, to multiple drives in case one fails. If your work and time is that valuable you should have a robost backup schema.
If repairs are too expensive, the manufacturer can supply a replacement of equivalent performance and features from their current (or more recent) range, which for cheap androids is quite a plausible option.

They do that now. Apple has twice replaced MacBook Pros for me with newer models due to defects ratehr than ty to repair.

Companies could also simply refund the purchase price if new models are significantly more expensive.
Depends how good they are at phoenixing without getting prosecuted.

Never underestimate the ability of fly by night companies to take the money and run.

Its impressive how the reaction to this is in other American forums and websites is totally the opposite. Here people talk about EU attacking American companies as a reaction … crazy crazy world. How poisoned is the discussion here around anything that may provoke a change in Apple practices. So much poison that stinks.

While some have, others have argued that such laws are not necessarily pro consumer in that they raise prices, don't really add that much protection, can act to protect the duopoly by erecting barriers to entry, and may have other unforeseen but negative side effects.

Do not confuse having a different viewpoint with attacking the EU. Even within the EU, people from one member state attack the other when they disagree with something they do, it's not just a US phenomena.
 
I have no issue with other countries having their own laws.

What I do have a problem with, is the attacking of American companies. Instead of having conversations with Apple, Google, etc, the governments are painted as the enemy of the consumer. The assumption is that the American companies make/take money from people and that the people are being cheated in the process.

Tech companies have given people the world at their fingertips. A generation ago, there was no internet, no way to communicate half way around the world with out paying through the nose.

That is what I mean by, I’m tired of the EU dictating to American companies.
First of, the original article in German doesn’t mention apple, secondly American companies are enemies of the consumers when they implement anti consumer practices.
And this isn’t directed at American companies but any company that want to sell to EU consumers.
The good apple have done have nothing to do with their bad actions, and this is not tit for tat.

EU have had conversations with apple, google, Facebook etc and their talks haven’t resulted with meaningful actions so now they will be forced to implement these changes or GTFO.
 
(1) In case of macOS yes. In case of iOS I believe is 5-7 years.
(2) Yes, parts are available. Apple does not sell them but can be found after market.

But there is a point made that is pertinent. Don’t think that HW startups and such can sustain such level of commitment. So I guess there must be something in the regulation not to strangle innovation in the device space, say a Tier based mechanism.

A standard of 7 years seams to be a stretch over all. Furthermore don’t think the challenge is here. But the fact is that companies are indeed refusing to repair their products right out of the gate. This is happening right now. What can we do about it? Nothing can’ be the solution. (Oh we can only repair a cracked piece of glass … really? Business sustainability?). Replacing a battery is not a repair, nothing is broken in such circunstance. Would you say replacing a battery on you PS5 controller to be a repair? Absurd.

PS: The subscription model on HW suggested by a poster is already coming regardless of regulation aiming to protect consumer properties. The question is not so much business sustainability but if the market can sustain profits of 60-70% along with passive revenue schemes. Don’t think its fair to talk with consumers with such premisses disguised as sustainability … hey … but one can only try right?
this is Statutory rights and not warranty( used interchangeably)
This will not affect startups or small companies in any meaningful way.
For example if I buy my iPhone/ car/ speaker at a local retailer they would be the one being responsible for 7 year warranty. And remember warranty does not equate no customer responsibility.


Right now in EU the first 6 months the company must prove the customer are responsible. 6months-3years in Sweden (6 years Ireland) you must prove the company is at fault and not you.
Companies are forced do do 4 things
1: repair it
2: give you a new product
3: exchange it to an equivalent one if the original one doesn’t exist/ can’t be thai would change it from 2 years EU minimum to 7 years
4: give your money back and if the products original value ( depending on the severity of the fault)
And the seller is compensated by the manufacturer or insurance
And even with subscription models products are still consumers property and could just be illegal unless it’s a form of leasing.
 

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7 years seems a bit much maybe.

But a push for longer warranties would be good and go a long way to sort the underlying issues.

A 12 month warranty is way to low for the environment.

A single point of failure and a device that could otherwise be fine for 5-10y will be discarded after 13 months.
Such a waste.
 
Do not confuse having a different viewpoint with attacking the EU. Even within the EU, people from one member state attack the other when they disagree with something they do, it's not just a US phenomena.

I was responding to another poster well he equated this German proposal as an attack on US companies. Furthermore the title on of this entire thread implies that what is being proposed is directed to iOS devices ... hence Apple. This aren’t any reasonable view points over the subject at hand.

This is in contrast to other also American sites where the title is: “Germany Takes an Aggressive Stance on Right to Repair”

Which is more in line with what actually is being suggested to the EU commission by the German administration.

Do not confuse having a different viewpoint with attacking the EU. Even within the EU, people from one member state attack the other when they disagree with something they do, it's not just a US phenomena.

Haven’t said such modus operandi is an US phenomena only. But recurrently I find this kind of argumentation in this forum when foreign administrations address an issue that may impact Apple.

I think its not hard to understand that regulations come more has an reaction than an a planned action.

*In the last 12 years there is an undeniable a trend in Big Tech, such as Apple, in refusing to fix the devices they produce by systematically arguing that is not fixable. Offering only as an option a replacement accompanied with not a small bill when the issue happens out of warranty. This would be ok, if there was not uncountable proof that indeed in a lot of situations are actually fixable.

Most regulations come through accumulation of incidents of some kind, complaints. There is a reason behind it as valid as any reason why a manufacturer may use not to fix a product.

While some have, others have argued that such laws are not necessarily pro consumer in that they raise prices, don't really add that much protection, can act to protect the duopoly by erecting barriers to entry, and may have other unforeseen but negative side effects.

I find that in this forum is quite common counter argue any form of regulation by deriving from it a rise in prices. With that stance, any form of regulation is against the consumer, no other option. Regardless of the regulation at hand. So much so I tend to see them as null.

In fact, regulation may initially drive prices a bit up, but as manufacturing processes are streamlined along with competition it tends to normalize. Some regulation even drive prices down by adopting common standards.

As a matter of regulation be a barrier to entry. Some are, others not so much. For instance, its unarguable that the GDPR regulation have put on devs greater complexity in the development process if not to management. But again, it tends to be streamlined so much so, no one argues it to be a barrier to entry.

“However, Germany wants the EU to go further by demanding seven years of updates and spare parts availability. In addition, it wants manufacturers to offer spare parts at "a reasonable price," and faster delivery of spare parts, a point it wishes to discuss further with the Commission.”

Back to this proposal. Right now, fundamentally I don‘t see how it helps to stop the practices described in * which are at the core of most complaints while profit margins of suppliers seam to be rising. So the benefits of non modularity aren’t really scaling down to the consumer but in effect scaling up with repair costs rising infinitely. So much so customer are pushed to buy a new one rather than fix the faulty product. With an increasing rise in the production of waste with negative impact on the environment. I guess innovation … depends how you see it … it does may not be a move forword all together, but actually a move backwards in some aspects.

To somewhat solve this I believe that the warranty on products that are fundamentally unfixable with exception of one or two situations as commonly described (cracked display, ?), should be regulated to a higher time span. Instead of two years may be 5. Parts availability is irrelevant if indeed if its designed not to be repairable … which seams to be how Apple sees the future of tech … environment be damned. Maybe than, these companies would think twice before engaging into unrepairable designs … and design more responsibly? Who knows. At the moment the cost of product variability seam to be more and more transferred to the customer, while before, when things where designed in a way to be repairable in case of failure, such cost could be later mitigated by simply replacing the faulty part.

In my life have had all sorts of hardware incidents that were not caused by misuse … gladly not many with Apple. SSDs failing, RAM failing, so on and so forth … most probably due specific issues on specific components or non so goof assembly … heck even design problems. Before it was easy to fix, just replace the failing unit. But now, where things are more integrated than ever leading to a total replacement to fix say a port, I think warranties of two years is not adequate, much less one year as in the US case. For instance I remember in a MBP of 2009 had a RAM problem after 2 years of use or so … just replaced it. On the other hand my iPad Pro 10.5” developed a brighter spot in the display after one year and … Now … this is impossible.

Cheers.
 
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