Getting refunded through Apple Pay?

JWorld127

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Jan 12, 2013
326
24
Has anyone been issued a refund on an item returned using Apple Pay? I recently returned an item at Champs Sports after initially using Apple Pay as my method of payment. The lady at the register at first did not want to give me a refund because the unique device number ( which is different than the card number) did not match the credit card I used. So after a long argument she finally "believed" me that I wasn't trying to scam her even though I was returning the item she told me to touch the NFC terminal with my iphone and that it would be credited back to my credit card. After 4 days I still do not show anything on my statements of a credit bing issued.

My question is to anyone who has returned an item how long did it take for the credit to show on your statement?

Thanks
 

Kendo

macrumors 68020
Apr 4, 2011
2,087
584
Has anyone been issued a refund on an item returned using Apple Pay? I recently returned an item at Champs Sports after initially using Apple Pay as my method of payment. The lady at the register at first did not want to give me a refund because the unique device number ( which is different than the card number) did not match the credit card I used. So after a long argument she finally "believed" me that I wasn't trying to scam her even though I was returning the item she told me to touch the NFC terminal with my iphone and that it would be credited back to my credit card. After 4 days I still do not show anything on my statements of a credit bing issued.

My question is to anyone who has returned an item how long did it take for the credit to show on your statement?

Thanks
It takes a few business days. FYI, Apple Pay has nothing to do with the return. It is all dependant on your credit card company.

For example, sometimes I return items and they don't need to even swipe my card, they just automatically put it back to the card that I paid with.
 

Menel

macrumors 603
Aug 4, 2011
6,197
1,028
Has anyone been issued a refund on an item returned using Apple Pay? I recently returned an item at Champs Sports after initially using Apple Pay as my method of payment. The lady at the register at first did not want to give me a refund because the unique device number ( which is different than the card number) did not match the credit card I used. So after a long argument she finally "believed" me that I wasn't trying to scam her even though I was returning the item she told me to touch the NFC terminal with my iphone and that it would be credited back to my credit card. After 4 days I still do not show anything on my statements of a credit bing issued.

My question is to anyone who has returned an item how long did it take for the credit to show on your statement?

Thanks
Some stores have their **** together.
Others are backwards retards.
You'll have to take it up with the retailer. Every case I read about, says it should work.

Returning items was also very easy. I didn't need to pull out my phone or my credit card. Armed with just the receipt and the scarf I'd just bought on a lower floor, the Macy's customer service counter was able to process my return and give me my money back without a hitch.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/10/22/a-day-buying-and-returning-things-with-apple-pay/
 

lordofthereef

macrumors G5
Nov 29, 2011
12,867
3,405
Boston, MA
I guess the part that I don't understand is if the transaction is truly anonymous in terms of the store never seeing my contact info, and if the apple oay token expires mere minutes after it is generated, how does the store have enough information to put it back on the card you originally paid with?
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
I guess the part that I don't understand is if the transaction is truly anonymous in terms of the store never seeing my contact info, and if the apple oay token expires mere minutes after it is generated, how does the store have enough information to put it back on the card you originally paid with?
The Apple Pay device account number (the token) does not change. What changes with each transaction, are the authorization codes.

The Device Account Number itself stays the same, unless of course the number has been removed and the card had to be re-registered.

Note that each iOS device supposedly has its own token account number for the same real credit card. Therefore the same device that was used to buy the item, probably has to be used to tap to get the refund at most stores.

Btw, you can go to Passbook, choose the card and tap the (i) info button to see the last four digits of the token account number. They should be on the merchant receipt as well.

.
 
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lordofthereef

macrumors G5
Nov 29, 2011
12,867
3,405
Boston, MA
The Apple Pay device account number (the token) does not change. What changes with each transaction, are the authorization codes.

The Device Account Number itself stays the same, unless of course the number has been removed and the card had to be re-registered.

Note that each iOS device supposedly has its own token account number for the same real credit card. Therefore the same device that was used to buy the item, probably has to be used to tap to get the refund at most stores.

Btw, you can go to Passbook, choose the card and tap the (i) info button to see the last four digits of the token account number. They should be on the merchant receipt as well.

.
As always, you have taught me something new. I thank you! :)
 

yg17

macrumors G5
Aug 1, 2004
14,888
2,480
St. Louis, MO
The Apple Pay device account number (the token) does not change. What changes with each transaction, are the authorization codes.

The Device Account Number itself stays the same, unless of course the number has been removed and the card had to be re-registered.

Note that each iOS device supposedly has its own token account number for the same real credit card. Therefore the same device that was used to buy the item, probably has to be used to tap to get the refund at most stores.

Btw, you can go to Passbook, choose the card and tap the (i) info button to see the last four digits of the token account number. They should be on the merchant receipt as well.

.
So what happens if I get a new phone and need to return something I bought with the old one?
 

deeddawg

macrumors G3
Jun 14, 2010
8,192
2,079
US
So what happens if I get a new phone and need to return something I bought with the old one?
Most case it'd be the same thing as when you do a return and don't have the original card with you.

They either post a credit to whatever card you have with you or give you cash.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
As always, you have taught me something new. I thank you! :)
As always, you're very welcome! It's a common misconception that the account token changes all the time. If they did that, they'd sooner or later run out of available account numbers.

Luckily, it doesn't have to change, since it's the dynamic transaction cryptograms that are passed with the account number, that make the transaction repeat-proof, even with a standard non-tokenized EMV credit card.

Instead, the reason for the token is to prevent someone from using the number for internet purchases.

--

The token is also useful to avoid the annoyance of having to switch cards if a merchant's storage systems get hacked.

However, as I've pointed out before, a token does not help if you've ever used the actual credit card at any time prior to registering it with Apple Pay...

Because if you have, your real card number is already stored in the merchant's files.

If it gets hacked, you'll still have to get a new credit card, no matter how much you've used Apple Pay since then.

The best case would be to get a new card, register it with Apple Pay, and then never use that card itself to pay for anything.
 

eelw

macrumors 6502a
Sep 19, 2012
630
26
Wonder if return can be done with the credit card instead? Well last resort if store has issue returning back through Apple Pay, store credit.
 

iMrNiceGuy0023

macrumors 68000
Jun 5, 2009
1,599
0
I'm wondering the same thing as well. I purchased an item from Macy's. I'm going to return it this week. They don't you to swipe when returning an item. It goes back to the original card.

My thing is. There's a new credit card number for my iPhone after I restored it.
 

mattopotamus

macrumors G5
Jun 12, 2012
13,222
3,357
The return will actually show your real credit card number. I returned something the other day that I bought with apple pay. They did the return without me having to swipe my card, but the receipt showed the last four on my CC, where the purchase showed the made up apple pay numbers.

Even though when you buy something it shows the Apple pay credit card number the system "knows the real card" I guess. My purchase was at T-Mobile with Apple pay. I returned it a few days later, and the receipt showed my actual correct card numbers on the return receipt. I verified the purchase receipt was the made up numbers from Apple pay.
 

cynics

macrumors G4
Jan 8, 2012
11,303
1,695
So what happens if I get a new phone and need to return something I bought with the old one?
Like mentioned further down nothing. I've returned items bought with ApplePay and they didnt need anything aside from the item and receipt.


Most case it'd be the same thing as when you do a return and don't have the original card with you.

They either post a credit to whatever card you have with you or give you cash.
You generally don't need the original credit card and its impossible for most retail stores (any stores) to credit an different credit card. Issuing a refund is a different transaction type then crediting a card.

OP: My returns showed back up immediately or at least with a day (time from the return until when I checked).
 
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saving107

macrumors 603
Oct 14, 2007
6,369
14
San Jose, Ca
OP: My returns showed back up immediately or at least with a day (time from the return until when I checked).
My refund at Home Depot took 2 weeks, it was only for $8 so I didn't lose sleep over it, but took longer than expected.

I work at Home Depot and I had bookkeeping look into it, on their system the money got released the next day, though it showed that it was released to a Bank of America account, I have Chase (and Home Depot banks with Wells Fargo).

I use Apple Pay very frequently but that has been my only refund, so I'm hoping it was a one time glitch (considering Home Depot is not listed as an official :apple:Pay partner).
 

rugmankc

Contributor
Sep 24, 2014
2,127
628
The Apple Pay device account number (the token) does not change. What changes with each transaction, are the authorization codes.

The Device Account Number itself stays the same, unless of course the number has been removed and the card had to be re-registered.

Note that each iOS device supposedly has its own token account number for the same real credit card. Therefore the same device that was used to buy the item, probably has to be used to tap to get the refund at most stores.

Btw, you can go to Passbook, choose the card and tap the (i) info button to see the last four digits of the token account number. They should be on the merchant receipt as well.

.
Thanks, I saw that when reading thru LoopPay. I thought it was just the phones device number and not the token. Guess they are one and the same. :)

----------

Also, my son uses Apple Pay extensively in the Cleveland area and said he has no issues with returns. So, must be Merchant related. I haven't used it yet as my area is limited with supporting Merchants that I use. Hopefully that will change this year. Ordered LoopPay in the meantime. :)
 

JayLenochiniMac

macrumors G5
Nov 7, 2007
12,815
2,354
New Sanfrakota
Thanks, I saw that when reading thru LoopPay. I thought it was just the phones device number and not the token. Guess they are one and the same. :)
That's the device account number (DAN), also known as payment token. However, it's separate from the one-time unique number that is sent to the issuer using the DAN. Many people get the two confused.
 

rugmankc

Contributor
Sep 24, 2014
2,127
628
That's the device account number (DAN), also known as payment token. However, it's separate from the one-time unique number that is sent to the issuer using the DAN. Many people get the two confused.
Thanks

OK, so we never see that number. Makes sense. :)
 

Newtons Apple

Suspended
Mar 12, 2014
22,764
14,917
Jacksonville, Florida
The delay in getting the funds back in your account is a banking problem and these funds can "float" for 7-10 days before they are posted, but most the time in only a few business days. :apple:
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
To be clear:

The device account number (DAN) that you partially see in Passbook is neither a secret, nor does it change. That token is sent in the clear with each transaction.

What is unique, are the device-terminal and transaction cryptograms that are created for that particular purchase. The token itself is useless without these dynamic transaction codes. They are partially calculated using on-phone secret keys that were provisioned (along with the DAN) during each Apple Pay account registration.
 

iMrNiceGuy0023

macrumors 68000
Jun 5, 2009
1,599
0
To be clear:

The device account number (DAN) that you partially see in Passbook is neither a secret, nor does it change. That token is sent in the clear with each transaction.

What is unique, are the device-terminal and transaction cryptograms that are created for that particular purchase. The token itself is useless without these dynamic transaction codes. They are partially calculated using on-phone secret keys that were provisioned (along with the DAN) during each Apple Pay account registration.

My DAN changed when I restored my iPhone 6 and didn't setup as new. It's a new 4 digit number.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
My DAN changed when I restored my iPhone 6 and didn't setup as new. It's a new 4 digit number.
I meant that it does not change between transactions.

It can and will change for other reasons. E.g., the one that JayLenochiniMac gave.

Credit and debit cards added to the Secure Element can only be used if the Secure Element is presented with authorization using the same pairing key and AR value from when the card was added. This allows iOS to instruct the Secure Enclave to render cards unusable by marking its copy of the AR as invalid under the following scenarios:

  • When the passcode is disabled
  • The user logs out of iCloud
  • The user selects Erase All Content and Settings
  • The device is restored from recovery mode

- Apple Security Guide / Nov 2014
Did you not have to re-register your card(s) after the restore? That, of course, would cause a new DAN to be downloaded.