GFCI circuits

[ActionableMango]

My house has a GFCI-protected circuit as follows. (Outlets are in order starting with closest to circuit breaker.)

Outlet #1 GFCI (garage)
Outlet #2 GFCI (bathroom 1)
Outlet #3 Regular (bathroom 2)

A plug-in GFCI tester shows correct wiring in all outlets. Pressing the test button on the plug-in tester in any of the three outlets causes the GFCI in outlet #1 to pop. In no cases can I cause the GFCI in outlet #2 to pop by using the plug-in tester.

Why are there two GFCI outlets on the same circuit? Everything I'm reading states that you need GFCI only on the outlet closest to the breaker box (outlet #1 in my case), and that all downstream outlets are protected by it.

 

[Tomorrow]

Everything I'm reading states that you need GFCI only on the outlet closest to the breaker box (outlet #1 in my case), and that all downstream outlets are protected by it.

Not sure where you're reading that, but GFCI needs to be installed whenever the receptacle is within 5' of a water supply.

It's possible to daisy chain multiple receptacles on a GFCI circuit, but depending on when the house was built they will sometimes have separate circuits for each group of outlets (kitchen, bathroom, etc.).

 

[Juicy Box]

Everything I'm reading states that you need GFCI only on the outlet closest to the breaker box (outlet #1 in my case), and that all downstream outlets are protected by it.

I think this may vary depending on where you live. Where I live, I think a GFCI protected receptacle is required by any water source, such as bathrooms, utility rooms, and kitchen sinks.
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Not sure where you're reading that, but GFCI needs to be installed whenever the receptacle is within 5' of a water supply.

I think it varies depending on your local building codes, and whether it is residential or commercial.

Some places just allow one GFCI protected receptacle to feed multiple locations.

 

[ActionableMango]

Not sure where you're reading that, but GFCI needs to be installed whenever the receptacle is within 5' of a water supply.

Handyman websites. Example:
"Correctly wired GFCIs will also protect other outlets on the same circuit."

Also the manual that came with the GFCI outlet I just bought states the same. If a GFCI is installed in the first receptacal, then all subsequent receptacals are GFCI-protected (assuming correct wiring). This seems to be the case because here is the result of triggering a ground fault via the plug-in adapter:

1. Trigger ground fault in GFCI outlet #1 - pops outlet #1
2. Trigger ground fault in GFCI outlet #2 - pops outlet #1
3. Trigger ground fault in non-GFCI outlet #3 - pops outlet #1

It appears that every outlet in the circuit is GFCI-protected by the GFCI outlet in #1.

Where I live, I think a GFCI protected receptacle is required by any water source, such as bathrooms, utility rooms, and kitchen sinks.

If I am understanding what I am reading correctly then the GFCI receptacle provides GFCI protection to all outlets behind it (which is why it needs to be installed in the receptacle closest to the breaker). So while I agree with you, I think there maybe be some miscommunication. In other words, a normal receptacle behind a GFCI receptacle IS a GFCI-protected receptacle--even though it is not a GFCI receptacle itself.

That is what is described on the handyman website, in the GFCI receptacle's manual, and my own test #3.

 

[Juicy Box]

If I am understanding what I am reading correctly then the GFCI receptacle provides GFCI protection to all outlets behind it (which is why it needs to be installed in the receptacle closest to the breaker).

Yes, this is true. Although they are expensive, last time I had to buy a circuit breaker, I saw some GFCI breakers. Assuming your local code allows it, this should protect all receptacles, GFCI or not, connected to that breaker.

Maybe later I will do some research, but I have noticed that in newer homes in my area, they have multiple GFCI receptacles on the same circuit. Maybe I assumed this is code, but a quick search on the internet says that this is out of convenience (not losing multiple outlets when testing, and if it triggers) and not because of building code. But again, I thought I read somewhere that it was required by all water sources, regardless of if it is protected somewhere down the line.

My father was an electrician for 40 year, I will ask him later.

 

[jtara]

If you have to ask... call an electrician!

GFCIs protect all "downstream" outlets, IF the downstream outlets have been wired to the "downstream" terminals. When a GFCI is unboxed, those terminals will have a yellow sticker over them.

You should NOT connect the downstream terminals of a GFCI to another GFCI downstream! If you do, there is no guarantee which outlet(s) will pop. One to n outlets will pop. Newer GFCI's with self-tests may fail the self-test. It is WRONG wiring, and a violation of electrical code. (Mine was mis-wired on move-in! I didn't know that somebody else had made this bone-headed wiring mistake. I installed a new GFCI with self-test feature, it tripped, how was I to know there was a mis-wired second GFCI in the other bathroom?)

If you want a reset button at each location for convenience (so you do not have to go to another room to reset) do NOT use the downstream terminals. Just wire in parallel as you would with a normal outlet. Each GFCI will then shut off only the local outlet, and will be reset locally.

 

[Juicy Box]

In no cases can I cause the GFCI in outlet #2 to pop by using the plug-in tester.

I was re-reading your post, and I think that outlet #2 should pop if #3 or #2 is triggered. But you are saying that #1 pops? Do they go from the breaker > #1 > #2 > #3?

 

[ActionableMango]

I was re-reading your post, and I think that outlet #2 should pop if #3 or #2 is triggered. But you are saying that #1 pops?

I think you are right. I will retest before I answer, just to be sure.

But I do want to make it clear that I'm talking about testing with a plug-in tester. If I use the test button on #2, then #2 pops.

Do they go from the breaker > #1 > #2 > #3?

The only one I'm sure of is #1 because it is in the garage and I can literally see the wire go from the breaker to the outlet and then continue into the house. From there it is behind drywall.

I assume #2 is next because it has both "supply" and "load" terminals wired, thus indicating that it is not the last item wired in the circuit.
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If you have to ask... call an electrician!

Oh you hit a sore spot with that. I tried. There aren't any. Seriously.

I provided a description of the job needed to two companies to request a quote. Neither one contacted me back with a quote.

I tried a recommended electrician. When he found out there was crawlspace work, he simply turned down the job and recommended one of this competitors. His competitor also turned down the job.

Every time there is a construction site around here, there is also a sign saying "Licensed electricians hired on the spot, $46/hour". This is not a hand written sign, it is a printed sign. I see this same sign at every construction site, so it is a bulk ordered sign. That's how bad the shortage is.

Anyway, if you want a job where literally everyone will apparently hire you right off the street for $95,680/year, become an electrician. And that $95,680 is not even counting the possibility of as much overtime and/or moonlighting as you'd care to do.

 

[curmudgeonette]

I was re-reading your post, and I think that outlet #2 should pop if #3 or #2 is triggered. But you are saying that #1 pops? Do they go from the breaker > #1 > #2 > #3?

It takes power to trip a GFCI. When the tester is in #2 or #3, then both GFCI's are trying to trip. The instant that #1 breaks the power, #2 no longer has any power to complete the tripping.

Also, the behavior suggests that the built in test button isn't creating a ground fault, but rather triggering the GFCI some other way. Your tester, because it doesn't have special access, is creating a ground fault.

So, the mystery: Why are there two GFCI's in series? Perhaps a previous home owner (or a house inspector!) didn't understand the downstream protection feature. They panicked when they saw a seemingly unprotected receptacle - and installed a second GFCI.

 

[jtara]

How on earth is this crawlspace work? Do you have outlets in a crawlspace?! Nobody has to go around tracing wires in a crawlspace. They have simple testers that can check connectivity if a simple disconnect-and-test approach doesn't work.

Inspect each of the outlets. Make an assumption that the closest one to the breaker box is the first in line, and test your theory by disconnecting the load wires. If the other two outlets go dead, it is indeed the first one. If not, repeat the test with the other outlets.

If you don't care about local reset, replace the two "downstream" outlets with conventional outlets. They will be protected, but you will have to reset from the first outlet location in case of a trip.

If you DO care about local reset, move the wires currently on the load screws to the line screws. Do this for EACH GGCI outlet. Now each one will operate independently.

The way it is apparently wired is WRONG and there are no valid "rules" on which one or ones will trip. It is a race that depends on physics and the reaction time of each GFCI circuit, which may be different. One or more of the GFCI's will trip if there is a fault. There is no guessing at "n".

Since somebody messed this up, who knows what else they messed up? If you do not have one, get a simple outlet tester that will tell you if hot, neutral, and ground are correct, and inspect to make sure color codes are correct. (Another great error I found in my place was the use of a GREEN wire for HOT!)

Why do color codes matter? Grab that green wire, assuming it is protective ground, and then ask me again...

There is no good reason to wire the load from a GFCI to a different room. It is just a cost-saving measure, but GFCI prices have come down so much it is largely a non-issue. It makes sense to use a single GFCI to protect several outlets in a kitchen. (You still may have more than one in a kitchen, because the code requires multiple circuits in a kitchen, depending on counter space and walls.)

If you do replace GFCIs with conventional, the current NEC requires that any replaced outlet must be replaced with a child-proof outlet. Your outlets are not grandfathered. If you have to replace them, it has to be child-proof. Some people do not like them, because the early ones were troublesome (the shutters). The current ones are not, save with the occasional stubborn too-short plug.

 

[Huntn]

My house has a GFCI-protected circuit as follows. (Outlets are in order starting with closest to circuit breaker.)

Outlet #1 GFCI (garage)
Outlet #2 GFCI (bathroom 1)
Outlet #3 Regular (bathroom 2)

A plug-in GFCI tester shows correct wiring in all outlets. Pressing the test button on the plug-in tester in any of the three outlets causes the GFCI in outlet #1 to pop. In no cases can I cause the GFCI in outlet #2 to pop by using the plug-in tester.

Why are there two GFCI outlets on the same circuit? Everything I'm reading states that you need GFCI only on the outlet closest to the breaker box (outlet #1 in my case), and that all downstream outlets are protected by it.

I’m not an expert on this, but I worked as a home electrician for several years. With what I’m familiar with you only need one GFCI plug on a circuit which protects the entire circuit. We have a GFCI in our guest bathroom which protects the outlet in the other bathroom, and the outside plug on our front porch. It’s possible that someone unfamiliar thought one needed to be added in each bathroom. And as you illustrated, it’s easy to verify outlets that are protected as they will trip the one GFCI on the circuit. Now if two GFCI are installed on the same circuit, I don’t know if that hurts anything or acts as a redundancy.

 

[ActionableMango]

How on earth is this crawlspace work?

Thanks for the informative response with your post.

To answer your question above, I want a new outlet added to the circuit. So additional wire needs to be run somewhere and presumably that run would be through the crawlspace, or at least that's what the electrician felt had to be done.

When I ask why there are two GFCI's on a single circuit with three outlets, I am merely trying to understand my existing setup so I understand what I need to do to ensure that everything is safe and correct.

I have looked at many GFCI wiring diagrams and now I am reasonably confident about what to do, and I also understand why there are so many conflicting answers.