Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
BubbaJones said:
I respectfully disagree. It is a law in many states that a child must be in a child safety seat until they fulfill certain requirements (5 - 7 years old, 40 -60 pounds depending).

These laws apply only to vehicles in motion or in traffic. It is assumable that they do not apply to the situation in the story.

In addition, many vehicles allow power windows to be operated within a certain time after the keys are removed, explicitly so owners can put up windows they forgot were down.

So there is no reason to conclude that any laws were violated, and there is no proof that the keys were even in the ignition.
 
BubbaJones said:
Hi.

I respectfully disagree. It is a law in many states that a child must be in a child safety seat until they fulfill certain requirements (5 - 7 years old, 40 -60 pounds depending). I quote "Texas law states that all children under 17 must be properly secured in a safety belt or child safety seat, whether they’re sitting in the front seat or the back. Children under four years old, or less than 36 inches tall, must ride in child safety seats. Children more than 36 inches and at least 4 years of age, but younger than 17, must be secured by a safety belt." (link) . I won't even put the key into the ignition until everyone (including adults) are buckled into a seat.
But funny if you hate cats.

I know this is the law and I always abide by it. I don't leave the keys in the car ignition if I let my child sit in the seat and touch buttons while I sit next to him- for the very reason this post exists. However, parents now a days are forced to work multiple jobs, live on sleep deprivation, etc. and mistakes happen. I could see her thinking her daughter was buckled in and put the key in- not start it but click it to "on" while talking with her husband and obviously a mistake happening. It is sad but true that even great parents make mistakes. If a parent says they don't make mistakes they are lying!

Just my opinion- I also don't feel people should be judged unless one knows the whole story.

edit: as is stated in the post right before mine...I also remember reading somplace where there was a car produced (can't remember what kind- was a few years ago) but it was made where there was enough power left after shutting the car off to roll up a couple of windows- I guess for the very reason that I stated earlier where one can forget to roll them up.
 
jsw said:
As far as solutions go, I agree that the "pull up" switches are a fantastic idea. Also, pressure sensitive pads like the ones on many newer cars which disable the front air bag when a slight but non-adult weight is on the seat would also help (obviously, for windows, they'd need this on all seats not just front ones). The window disable switch only works when it's activated, and the best safety features don't require intentional activation, especially when children are concerned.

The wondow disable button lock is easily tripped and switched on my Subaru forrester as it is on the arm rest. I am often looking down and seeing it is switched off, when I intend to have lock on at all times unless I am rolling down the windows.

I don't know exactly how all these pressure seat switches work (ie airbag), but as far as car seats go there are spaces under the car seats that don't let the car seat touch the seat so that might not work unless the whole seat was covered with the sensitive pads.

Also, the child could have their feet or knees on the seat and the window would still work.
 
BubbaJones said:
Two points.

1. When a child is in a car with power windows, the master switch by the driver should be shut off they can't open or close the windows.

2. What the hell was a 3 year old doing in a running car (here I am assuming because the windows won't work if the car is off) with out being strapped into a child booster seat, or at least being buckled in.

The parents stupidity lead to this. It is a tragic accident that could have been avoided by using some common sense.

Sad but true. I can see the litigation already. And our tax dollars wasted.

Bet you didn't know that its unsafe to drive with your elbow or arm on the windows sill? imagine your driving and someone slams your side, and your arm is crushed. Is it the automaker's fault? No.

" >people <responsible "
 
flyfish29 said:
I don't know exactly how all these pressure seat switches work (ie airbag), but as far as car seats go there are spaces under the car seats that don't let the car seat touch the seat so that might not work unless the whole seat was covered with the sensitive pads.

We just got a Honda Odyssey (first minivan... not as painful or emasculating as I thought it would be). As far as I can tell, the pressure sensor is fairly deep in the cushion or perhaps under the entire seat. It senses additional weight on the seat and can pretty accurately tell if (a) the seat is empty; (b) an "adult" weight [unknown exact amount, but probably greater than 70 pounds?] is on it; or (c) something weighing more than a couple of pounds (a bag of groceries triggers it) is on it. In case (c), the "airbag disabled" light comes on.

It works quite well. Since, presumably, the window switch need only operate if an adult is sitting there (or an adult is sitting in the driver's seat when accessing another window control), this seems like an ideal solution. Since an adult driver could activate all windows, I don't see how this would be a problem. Also, it doesn't preclude the master disable switch, but it goes a long way towards not needing to worry if it's on or not.
 
every activity has a risk, the question here is 'is it reasonable to expect the car makers to forsee this risk and prevent it?'

there are recessed window switches that offers a solution; but still one must also look to parents to take reasonable precautions with their children
 
virividox said:
every activity has a risk, the question here is 'is it reasonable to expect the car makers to forsee this risk and prevent it?'

there are recessed window switches that offers a solution; but still one must also look to parents to take reasonable precautions with their children

Agreed. You cannot prevent tragedy. However, the simplicity and zero (or trivial) additional cost of using a "pull up" recessed switch arguably leads to a reasonable expectation that all auto manufacturors should use them.

There will always be ways for kids to kill themselves accidentally. That can't be prevented. I just think it's wrong for some of the posters here to say "it'd never happen to me or my kids" since something similarly unlikely could.
 
virividox said:
every activity has a risk, the question here is 'is it reasonable to expect the car makers to forsee this risk and prevent it?'

there are recessed window switches that offers a solution; but still one must also look to parents to take reasonable precautions with their children

No, it is not reasonable to expect them to forsee this risk and prevent it, but it is proven that these windows have killed children and if it doesn't cost much money to fix it them maybe they should. The situation described below would not cost really anything more probably except maybe a couple of cheap switches, and rewiring design in cars that have the seat sensors.

jsw said:
Since, presumably, the window switch need only operate if an adult is sitting there (or an adult is sitting in the driver's seat when accessing another window control), this seems like an ideal solution. Since an adult driver could activate all windows, I don't see how this would be a problem.

Sounds great- and since it is already in place for airbags it would be easy to link to windows and not very costly at all.

One problem could be the car seat we have for our 3 year old is probably 25+ pounds, maybe 30. Add that to his weight and the 70lbs (or whatever it is) would probably have to be adjusted up.

also, if a kid was standing on the seat (which they shouldn't be, but they do sometimes climbing into it or into another seat the force of standing could be greater than their weight. Obviously I am nit picking here, but just some things they would want to consider if they did it.
 
jsw said:
These laws apply only to vehicles in motion or in traffic. It is assumable that they do not apply to the situation in the story.

In addition, many vehicles allow power windows to be operated within a certain time after the keys are removed, explicitly so owners can put up windows they forgot were down.

So there is no reason to conclude that any laws were violated, and there is no proof that the keys were even in the ignition.

I have a VW Golf and the power is available to the sunroof and windows until I open the door.

The one thing I'm not sure anyone has considered is that this could have been an inexpensive import pickup truck. It may not have had an all-inclusive armrest which would have held a pull-for-up window control and/or power door lock. In that case, the likely position is flush against the door panel.

I can't see that any laws were violated at all but I can't imagine someone trying to work a child seat of any kind from a sitting position. From what I've seen, you more-or-less have to be an acrobat to use them properly, so you restrain the child before entering the vehicle. However, I saw nothing to even suggest that there was a safety seat and that's typical of people here. Even when there are free seats available, people just can't be bothered.
 
bousozoku said:
From what I've seen, you more-or-less have to be an acrobat to use them properly, so you restrain the child before entering the vehicle.

Booster seats are pretty easy to buckle - or at least unbuckle - without a great deal of effort.

I agree that we don't even know if there was a child seat in the car.
 
bousozoku said:
I can't see that any laws were violated at all but I can't imagine someone trying to work a child seat of any kind from a sitting position. From what I've seen, you more-or-less have to be an acrobat to use them properly, so you restrain the child before entering the vehicle. However, I saw nothing to even suggest that there was a safety seat and that's typical of people here. Even when there are free seats available, people just can't be bothered.

Yes, car seats are difficult to install but not to put the car seat staps on the child. That is relatively simple and often done by three and up kids. In fact the older kids between three and five, use regular seat belts but are in booster seats which are usually installed so the child just brings the regular seat belt across themselves and buckles it up which is pretty simple.

Unfortuantely it is also easy for children this age to undo their own car seat (without the parents knowing it) which could have been the case as well. In fact, I read on Amazon reviews the other day that someone had a child that was just over two years of age and he was even able to undo his own carseat buckle.

Maybe mom drove by home, talked to her husband about something she forgot and left the car running as she planned on going back out to get whatever she forgot and she assumed her daughter would stay buckled in,but the girl unbuckles thinking she is getting out and the mom can't see her do this because her head is turned to her husband out her window. And of course the accident then happens.

It depends on the location, but my expereince has been that the majority of parents use car seats until around age four or five- not long enough, butmost very young children are buckled in...of course the seats are so damn difficult to install most are installed incorrectly. Stats say over 65% of car seats are installed incorrectly and a majority of those could result in serious injuries to the child if involved in an accident.

The LATCH system has helped but only very new cars have that and there is still much room for error installing and using them. Too much if you ask me.

True, could have been a truck import on the door, but also could have been the girls curiosity of switches.
 
All this talk about what should be done to ensure this never happens again - is it the manufacturers fault or the parents? Actually it is technology's fault. I remember (and still have) a car with manual windows - meaning you had to roll them down by hand. Anyone remember those? This would never happen with these old style windows. Sometimes I wonder if technology also makes us lazy and less observant of things. Sometimes technology is wonderful, and sometimes it can create problems.
 
Fix for the problem

I agree with the post just above,

The easiest way to fix the problem of dangerous power windows is to put in manual windows. I have been driving cars for the past 5 or 6 years with manual windows and I have come to prefer them. It only takes a couple of seconds to roll down the window using the old crank. Plus, my guess is that no kid could get hurt by rolling the window up on themselves. Heck, most 3 year olds probably couldn't roll one down much less up. So forget the sensors and pressure feelers and window locks, the solution is simple!
 
If only the parents had this... :(
res-q-me.jpg
 
parrothead said:
The easiest way to fix the problem of dangerous power windows is to put in manual windows. I have been driving cars for the past 5 or 6 years with manual windows and I have come to prefer them.

Actually, power windows are more of a convenience item than anything else. Its convenient to be able to open all the windows of a car, or the non-driver side of the car from the driver side in order to get all the hot air out of the car during the day.

I like manual windows because 1) its cheaper 2) its lighter, electric motors are heavier than the handle 3) its simpler, don't need any electric cables going to the door 4) it doesn't drain your batteries if you don't drive your car a lot
 
Frohickey said:
Um... fault? Fault?

Why didn't the mom or the dad just break the window?

Yeah, I agree with post above...probably was already killed, but the mom was on the driver side so could not probaly break from there and the girl was stuck in it so probably hard to break from either side...sorry have to stop typing ...too sickening to think of...I have to go put my son to bed now.
 
jsw said:
I believe she was dead before they noticed she was stuck.

I pray that it went quickly for her. :(

It is still strange that the parents didn't know something sooner. :confused:
 
Sudden Surge?

Car Window Deaths Anger Safety Groups Advocates Say Technology Exists to Prevent Accidents

By Greg Schneider
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 24, 2004; Page A01

At least seven children have died nationwide in the past three months by getting strangled in automobile power windows, prompting safety advocates to charge the auto industry and the government with dragging their feet in making relatively simple changes to reduce the danger.


The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the federal agency responsible for monitoring auto safety, has no rules governing power window safety and no formal way of tracking such accidents despite examining the issue for several years. A spokesman said the agency plans to propose a rule requiring safer power windows in about a month, followed by a comment period and then a phase-in period for industry to comply.

Until the recent unexplained surge in deaths, power windows were thought to be responsible for only about two to four child deaths per year, a small fraction of the 43,220 people killed annually in U.S. traffic accidents.

But safety advocates say any such deaths are unnecessary because they are readily preventable. The problem is primarily with U.S.-made cars sold in the U.S. market, which traditionally have used "rocker" or toggle-style switches that can cause power windows to close inadvertently if someone leans on the switch.

Because some foreign governments have window safety requirements, most Asian- and European-brand vehicles use a type of switch that has to be pulled upward to raise the window, making it difficult for a child to trip it accidentally. Many foreign brands also offer bounce-back features that cause windows to lower automatically if they hit an obstacle, similar to the safety feature on garage-door openers. Such equipment is available on Volkswagens, for example, sold in the United States or abroad.

[delete to end]
 
MongoTheGeek said:
One was an accident. It got press, the rest were copy cat infanticides...

I think that parents are just not as responsible today. Many have no business having a child. :(
 
And this made the news ?

News Media is degrading severely. That's not real news. How about that the life of the city, what the neighbourhoods are doing, the businesses, the labours, the schools, education, innovation, culture, artists. Lousy television stations using our property (the public airwaves) to transmit to us 9 minutes of advertisings, 4 minutes sports, 4 minutes weather, 1 minute contrived improptu chitchat between the anchors, 1 minute for the animal story, 1 minute for the "required" latest medical break through from the new england journal of medicine that we won't see for 35 years, 3 minutes for street crime and fires, a couple of stories from city hall, maybe a disaster story, maybe a movie review, and then they have the nerves to tell you "and folks, that's the new tonight".
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.