GM and Chrysler potential merger?

[Abstract]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081010.wgm1010/CommentStory/Business/

General Motors is in preliminary talks about a possible merger with Chrysler LLC, The New York Times reported late on Friday.

The talks between GM and Cerberus Capital Management, the private equity firm that owns Chrysler, began more than a month ago and are not certain to produce a deal, the paper said.

The Wall Street Journal reported Friday night that the merger talks had been suspended because of financial market turmoil.

A merger between the two auto giants would drastically change the landscape of the automobile industry in the United States.
General Motors

The Globe and Mail

The news comes after GM lost 31 per cent of its value Thursday, in a day of market turmoil that saw the Dow Jones close below 9,000 points.

The Times said two people close to the process said the chances of a merger were “50-50” as of Friday and would most likely still take weeks to work out.

A merger would drastically reshape the ailing U.S. auto industry, reducing the Big Three of Detroit to the Big Two.

GM shares have fallen to near a 60-year low on fears the global financial crisis could derail turnaround plans.

GM and Detroit's other automaker, Ford Motor Co both ruled out on Friday seeking bankruptcy protection.

GM shares fell as low as $4 early on Friday, the lowest price for the stock since 1949, but recovered and ended up 13 cents, or 2.7 per cent higher, at $4.89 on the New York Stock Exchange.

I don't care for either company, particularly Chrysler, but I certainly don't want either of them to go bankrupt.

What do you think?

 

[strider42]

One of the big problems GM has, in my opinion, is too many brands. Its difficult to manage, too difficult to make any of the brands stand out, and too difficult to differentiate them. They end up doing a lot of merely rebadging the same car 5 different times, with slightly different option packages. its ridiculous. They don't need chrysler. Adding Chrysler (and jeep, and dodge with it presumably) just gives them a bigger problem in my opinion. Then there would be even more overlap among brands, another truck based brand (jeep), which probably won't sell well (to go along with GMC and hummer that they already have), and now they have more platforms they will eventually need to consolidate.

In my opinion, Chrysler needs to be bought out by a foreign company that wants to get a foothold in the american truck market, and currently only has one or two brands without a lot of overlap. Daimler tried this and didn't succeed, but I think that's because they didn't really know what to do with them. I think one of the Japanese or Korean companies could do really well with it.

 

[jbernie]

Apparently Cerberus is pretty much shopping them to anyone who will listen, I think i might check the back of my couch to see if I can find enough coin to make an offer....

Desparate times, desperate measures, GM could also potentially offload its remaining stake in GMAC possibly to Cerberus. Offload the financial issues/exposures and pick up the car brands which is more their focus. They could certainly go for serious cost cutting in car development as the costs would be spread over more brands. Obviously concerns over too many brands... but economies of scale could counter this, just a matter of whether it would counter it enough.

Be interesting to see what happens.

 

[MacNut]

What would GM do with the Chrysler line, their parts are not compatible as far as I know. Unless they turn the Dodge line into a mid range for GMC. Chrysler into either the Buick or Caddy line. I could see them moving the Charger and Viper into the Pontiac and Chevy brand.

 

[gikku]

They're both history.
Bye-Bye.

 

[MacNut]

They're both history.
Bye-Bye.

GM as a core company might change but the brands will stay around in some form.

 

[quagmire]

Hell no, but if it does happen GM better just take what is valuable( Wrangler, Cummins, Viper) and sell off the rest.

I don't care for Chrysler. Unlike GM and Ford, their quality still sucks and from what I can tell, they will still suck in the future.

 

[MacNut]

Is Ford or GM's quality much better?

 

[GSMiller]

What would GM do with the Chrysler line, their parts are not compatible as far as I know. Unless they turn the Dodge line into a mid range for GMC. Chrysler into either the Buick or Caddy line. I could see them moving the Charger and Viper into the Pontiac and Chevy brand.

Yeah, many of the Dodge models would be split between different marquees being that they make everything from sports cars to trucks. I would imagine them being able to keep the Jeep brand intact though being that GM has wanted such a brand for quite some time.

 

[FightTheFuture]

GM should be putting more effort into rolling out the Chevy Volt. right now i don't think anyone is really interested in what new cars are in development. 2009 seems like a good year to skip the auto show; let's let people buy what they need instead of shoving a low interest rate in your face every time you watch a tv show.

 

[quagmire]

Is Ford or GM's quality much better?

I can personally testify for GM and from reading forums, reviews, and the reliability study groups( JD Power, etc) Ford seems to have gotten their act together. My family has owned 4 GM vehicles( 2 Suburbans, an Equinox, and Aura) and so far all of them have been reliable with no major problems. The interior of the Aura( the car I personally drive) is made up of good materials, but does have its cheap places. Comparing it to the Camry's and Accords interiors, I would say it is no worse or better then there interiors are.

Our last Chrysler was a 2002 Sebring Convert. HORRIBLE! Suspension squeaked and the dealer said it was normal, interior cheap as hell, engine could barely keep it moving, the passenger window whistled, and throttle response was horrible. We got rid of it at 60K because the oil pump was failing and our mechanic said it would be a costly replacement considering where Chrysler put the pump. He told us the engine would have to be removed to get to it. Then we had two Jeeps. A 2000 Cherokee and Grand Cherokee. The Cherokee kept on overheating and left my dad stranded a few times due to that. The Grand Cherokees transmission blew at 35K( dealer said the symptoms were normal, even though it was clear it was failing because it refused to shift into 3rd gear without letting off the gas). Then we had 3 minivans. One was fine, but the other two burned oil and transmission blew. Chrysler sucks.

 

[GSMiller]

I can personally testify for GM and from reading forums, reviews, and the reliability study groups( JD Power, etc) Ford seems to have gotten their act together. My family has owned 4 GM vehicles( 2 Suburbans, an Equinox, and Aura) and so far all of them have been reliable with no major problems. The interior of the Aura( the car I personally drive) is made up of good materials, but does have its cheap places. Comparing it to the Camry's and Accords interiors, I would say it is no worse or better then there interiors are.

Yeah I would agree. My sister drives a 1995 Cavalier (bought new) and it has about 120,000 miles on it and is still going strong. My Cobalt has 9,320 miles on it and I have had zero problems whatsoever with it as of yet. My only complaint with GM vehicles is that they ride a little rough.

 

[takao]

what a dream team that would be ...

GM just pulled a huge idiocy just celebrating their new Opel product launch just when the stock markets were crashing left and right ...

edit: not that Opel has bad quality .. perhaps the best of the GM brands ... it sure speaks volumes that they will be building the next Saab 9 in Germany and not in Sweden .. but GM sure has drove those 2 brands straight up the wall over the decades through bad marketing.. no wait .. make that NO marketing

 

[quagmire]

what a dream team that would be ...

GM just pulled a huge idiocy just celebrating their new Opel product launch just when the stock markets were crashing left and right ...

I am guessing you would be talking about the Insignia. How is it an idiot move pushing a valuable product for them to continue to compete in Europe? Companies are not going to say, " Stop buying our products and save the money just in case there is a crash." They will keep on trying to get consumers to buy their product no matter what.

PS: GM bring the Insignia here as the new Aura without new sheet metal please.

 

[takao]

I am guessing you would be talking about the Insignia. How is it an idiot move pushing a valuable product for them to continue to compete in Europe? Companies are not going to say, " Stop buying our products and save the money just in case there is a crash." They will keep on trying to get consumers to buy their product no matter what.

no the problem is that they released it just at a time when the news were overflowing with _other_ news _and_ just before the Paris car expo .. which means everybody will remember those nifty prototypes and small economic cars (fitting to the current news) just presented there .. who will remember their upper middle class vectra replacement ? exactly nobody

_i_ caught it simply by accident when i was looking at the pictures from paris and saw the small "old news" on the bottom somewhere

and "Insignia" ? what a crap name for the german market

 

[quagmire]

no the problem is that they released it just at a time when the news were overflowing with _other_ news _and_ just before the Paris car expo .. which means everybody will remember those nifty prototypes and small economic cars (fitting to the current news) just presented there .. who will remember their upper middle class vectra replacement ? exactly nobody

_i_ caught it simply by accident when i was looking at the pictures from paris and saw the small "old news" on the bottom somewhere

and "Insignia" ? what a crap name for the german market

Ah, I see. I thought you were saying it was stupid of them pushing it when the stock market was taking a beating. Not that the Insignia would be overshadowed by the the stock market in the news. My bad.

 

[rotorblade69]

If they did merger it would involve a lot of overlapping and a lot of Slashing shortly there after. I really don't think the market would go along with it. I just don't see it happening.
BUT
Good god guys if GM goes bye bye we are all F'ed in the A. OK really GM is one of the top 5 largest companies in the world, IF they go out the world will suffer. GM's biggest problem is Unions right now and the baggage that comes with. I will never buy a GM product again. The only one that my family has ever had that was decent was a 1992 Pontiac Lemans. It was not made in the USA it was made In South Korea.
strider42 You have a point way too many brands with a lot of over lapping. It took them 5 years to get the point with Olds. They need to trim up and clean out the FAT. But when you spend a billion a month just to keep operational thats some serious bleeding of cash that will be needed in the next 10 years. Do they deserve to fail doesn't matter but if they do there are very good reasons as to why they do. PLUS they just can't start making fuel efficient cars in large quantities all of a sudden. The vehicles they have now were planned for 3 to 4 years ago.

As for Chrysler its the Jeep kiss of death for them. ANY company who has bought and held Jeep for over 5 yeas is Out of business. Willys-Overland, Kaiser, and AMC all out of business. NOW yes those companies had other problems other than just Jeep, but SUV's are out. Something very interesting, Jeep was supposedly going to make the Wrangler a Unit body small 2 door mini-sport ute, with 4 cyl. diesel, 5 speed auto and a host of other little features but NO convertible just hard top.
And then there is Cerberus do you know what that word means. A three-headed dog with a snake for a tail that is the guardian of the underworld. WHO THE HELL names their company that. I mean come on.

 

[ErikCLDR]

Neither brand has anything fantastic to offer other than the Chevy Volt.

 

[ErikCLDR]

As for Chrysler its the Jeep kiss of death for them. ANY company who has bought and held Jeep for over 5 yeas is Out of business. Willys-Overland, Kaiser, and AMC all out of business. NOW yes those companies had other problems other than just Jeep, but SUV's are out. Something very interesting, Jeep was supposedly going to make the Wrangler a Unit body small 2 door mini-sport ute, with 4 cyl. diesel, 5 speed auto and a host of other little features but NO convertible just hard top.
And then there is Cerberus do you know what that word means. A three-headed dog with a snake for a tail that is the guardian of the underworld. WHO THE HELL names their company that. I mean come on.

Jeep used to be an excellent company. Up until they came out with the liberty they were fine. Jeeps used to be one of the most popular SUV's. The Original Grand Cherokee and the 1999-2004 versions were pretty decent vehicles. In New England everyone has owned a jeep (exaggeration I know, but they are everywhere). The Cherokee is a very solid car. The liberty that replaced it wasn't nearly as popular. The 05+ Grand Cherokee isn't popular. The Jeep Commander is a horribly designed vehicle. The new nitro, patriot, and compass are jokes.

The only thing they have going for them is the wrangler. I think one of the problems that has emerged with jeeps, especially in the 1999+ Grand Cherokees is that you can spend $2x,000 on a new one, or $50,000 depending on what engine, options, and choice of the 13 different drive trains.

 

[quagmire]

Neither brand has anything fantastic to offer other than the Chevy Volt.

The Corvette or CTS/-V doesn't help GM out? How about the Malibu? GM finally has a mid size sedan that actually competes with the Japanese Big 3. Even with the sucky interior and bland exterior, the Cobalt offers a great deal on both ends of the spectrum. The XFE offers 25 MPG city/ 37 MPG hwy and the SS offers 30 MPG highway with a DI Turbo 4 banger making 260 HP and 260 lb of torque. The SS was chosen over the Lancer Ralliart, WRX, and Mazda3Speed by Road&Track.

 

[yg17]

The Corvette or CTS/-V doesn't help GM out?

Yeah, because everyone can afford to go out and buy a Corvette or CTS to help save GM

How about the Malibu? GM finally has a mid size sedan that actually competes with the Japanese Big 3.

Malibu: $22,275
Camry: $19,145
Accord: $20,755
Altima: $19,900
And just for good measure, the Hyundai Sonata: $18,700

Even with the sucky interior and bland exterior, the Cobalt offers a great deal on both ends of the spectrum. The XFE offers 25 MPG city/ 37 MPG hwy and the SS offers 30 MPG highway with a DI Turbo 4 banger making 260 HP and 260 lb of torque. The SS was chosen over the Lancer Ralliart, WRX, and Mazda3Speed by Road&Track.

You said it yourself, sucky interior and bland exterior. If I'm spending that kind of money, I want to make sure every single aspect of it is good, including a decent exterior and interior. I'll sacrifice a couple horsepower and a little bit of gas mileage so I don't get the urge to vomit every time I look at my car.

 

[quagmire]

Yeah, because everyone can afford to go out and buy a Corvette or CTS to help save GM

He said GM offers nothing exceptional besides the Volt( which won't be cheap either). He didn't say GM doesn't offer any exceptional affordable vehicles.

Malibu: $22,275
Camry: $19,145
Accord: $20,755
Altima: $19,900
And just for good measure, the Hyundai Sonata: $18,700

Impressive, only thing you have to say against the Malibu is that it is more expensive then the competition. But, in what way are those products significantly better then the Malibu besides price?

You said it yourself, sucky interior and bland exterior. If I'm spending that kind of money, I want to make sure every single aspect of it is good, including a decent exterior and interior. I'll sacrifice a couple horsepower and a little bit of gas mileage so I don't get the urge to vomit every time I look at my car.

That's your choice, but if people are on a budget, the Cobalt will be decently cheaper then the competition. Plus, the Cruze solves the Cobalt's short comings and Wagoner said it himself that they are aiming for 40 MPG+ HWY.

Not the most attractive trim color shown, but the interior is loads better then the Cobalts.

 

[yg17]

He said GM offers nothing exceptional besides the Volt( which won't be cheap either). He didn't say GM doesn't offer any exceptional affordable vehicles.

By "help GM out" I assumed you meant it helps them from a financial perspective, which IMO, it does not.

Impressive, only thing you have to say against the Malibu is that it is more expensive then the competition. But, in what way are those products significantly better then the Malibu besides price?

I've never been in any of those 4 cars so I can't compare them on anything but price. But if I'm buying a new car, the very first thing I'm going to look at is price. I'll see that the Malibu is considerably more than its competition and cross it off my list.

That's your choice, but if people are on a budget, the Cobalt will be decently cheaper then the competition. Plus, the Cruze solves the Cobalt's short comings and Wagoner said it himself that they are aiming for 40 MPG+ HWY.

What's the Cobalt's competition? Because it's starting price is more than that of the Rabbit, Civic, Mazda 3, Sentra, Elantra and Corolla

Not the most attractive trim color shown, but the interior is loads better then the Cobalts.

I don't like it. Interior doesn't look too terrible, but the exterior is bland IMO

 

[takao]

is that blue thing textile ? how very Renault Espace-y from 20 years ago

and the center console ? i better hope that silvery thing is brushed aluminium and not plastic ... not that it would help the hopelessly overdone design


that said : GM and Chryslers big problem isn't really their home turf .. it's abroad ...
Chrysler ? still holding on on their falling and falling Voyager sales because they completely missed the smaller Van segment the french and german designers stormed ...
and GM ?
Opel is merley doing "meh" in the market with their utter failures being compensated with cars like the Zafira (which at some point made up more than 40% of all sales)
Saab completely desintegrating in the market under the pressure of being pushed into the upper market

 

[wHo_tHe]

Impressive, only thing you have to say against the Malibu is that it is more expensive then the competition. But, in what way are those products significantly better then the Malibu besides price?

All the major car mags have said the same, actually. Consensus is that while the new Malibu is light years ahead of its predecessor, it still lags its Japanese competitors.

Chrysler's products are considered the worst in the business on the whole. Only their trucks and minivans (plus Jeeps) have any value in retaining.