Google Co-Founder Accuses Jobs of 'Rewriting History' of iPhone and Android

[reubs]

Have you installed IphoneOS4 on your 1G Iphone?

"Capable" is a subjective term. You can install IhoneOS4 on the 2G Iphone, but there are many complaints that it is very slow. Only the 3G and 4G Iphones run well with IphoneOS4.

Phones are not PCs running shrink-wrap OS releases - industry-wide it is unusual for any smartphone to support upgrades to full new releases of the OS. Unlike a PC, phones have a limited lifetime (note that 20 month free upgrade window). It doesn't make much sense to try to upgrade old legacy phones. Apple's caught on to that with IphoneOS4.

No, I haven't installed OS 4 on my 1G. If you had read my post you'd realize that I don't have an iPhone. What I do have, though, is an HTC Hero that was released in 2009 and is STILL running a 1.x software. The problem here is that Android is on SO many platforms with SO many carriers that each carrier is responsible for getting the OS up to running with their system.

2.x apps are out on the Market (1Password, for ex) that would be GREAT to have, but I can't run it b/c Cellular South and HTC can't get their act together to get a working version for the latest Android OS running on a phone that's less than one year old.

I don't think any G1 owners expect to run 2.1, but there are modded ROMs out there that are running on G1s. Anyone who has an Android phone purchased in the last year has every reason to expect to be running an OS that came out w/in 6 mos of the original release.

I don't expect my phone to last for more than two years. In the age of the smartphone, though, I expect to have a phone that can run at least one OS up from what it was released with. Currently, I have such a phone. What's not happening, though, is that carriers are not trickling down the OS to phones that can run it.

Ultimately, who does the fault lie with? Google, the carrier, the manufacturer or the consumer? I don't know, but Apple's not having this problem with ATT. Phones that can run the OS are running. Phones that can't are not. I don't think folks w/ three yr old iPhones have reason to complain about not running iOS 4.

 

[KnightWRX]

2.x apps are out on the Market (1Password, for ex) that would be GREAT to have, but I can't run it b/c Cellular South and HTC can't get their act together to get a working version for the latest Android OS running on a phone that's less than one year old.

They promised 1st half of 2010, which in my book, is less than 6 months after Android 2.1's release. Sprint rolled out the update 2 months ago, OTA, so maybe you should give a call to Cellular South and see what is the hold up on their side ?

Next time go with a national carrier instead of a regional one.

 

[*LTD*]

And profits ? A measure of success for shareholders maybe, for consumers, it just means you paid too much for your product. A company with low volume and high profit is selling you stuff for too much.

Baloney. This situation does not exist. Selling on margin means it's a premium item (the market has decided it is) and demand matches accordingly.

Apple and anyone else can charge whatever the market can bear.

Apple selling more Macs in a recession, for example, in spite of lower-cost alternatives, simply means that there is not only a perception of higher value in Apple gear but that it is undergirded by high demand.

 

[blahblah100]

I find it quite entertaining that a short while ago (look at the older discussions), alot of you now Google-haters were singing Google's praises, some even suggesting the company merge with Apple. You trashed Live in favor of Google's greatness. Google was your savior outside of Apple.

Now, they make a comment about Apple you don't like, or they start ::heaven forbid:: competing with Apple in one area, and now you are casting stones.

And you wonder why logical minds call you fanboys... You can't argue on the basis of facts (like Apple did not invent multi-touch... THEY BOUGHT IT). You ignore anything that doesn't fit what YOU WANT TO BELIEVE.

They are the largest tech company in the world. They are a large, greedy, corporation who lies cheats and steals to get a dollar (oh yeah... they were "STUNNED" to find the misrepresentation of bars in iOS).

Get over yourselves and get an ***** life. The only thing they do better than any other greedy corporation is hire better PR, and have a cast of blind idiots (fanboys) evangelizing worse than a bunch of bible thumping Christians.

 

[*LTD*]

Image.

Yes. It doesn't just "happen." Something, a product, a service, has to earn it. It must be sustained. Apple has done exactly that, with the strength of their products, year after year. Apple's reputation precedes them, and not by accident.

 

[KnightWRX]

Yes. It doesn't just "happen." Something, a product, a service, has to earn it. It must be sustained.

Designer clothes say you lie. Earn and sustain it can mean it just has to pay for it with big marketing dollars.

 

[AidenShaw]

The "fragmentation" of iOS isn't even close to Android.

And please explain how this "fragmentation" hurts the typical user? Mercedes doesn't upgrade the engine in a year old car, yet people still buy them.

My Samsung smartphone is nearly 5 years old - yet it's often a better *telephone* than an Iphone 4. I don't have to worry about how I hold it, or keep it in a case for it to work. The voice quality is much better than the first couple of generations of the Iphone (don't know if I've ever done a call with an Iphone 4 to compare). And of course, it's on a much better network than AT&T.

It did get one point update about 4 years ago.

Only the tech geeks worry about OS upgrades on a phone - most people are happy that a phone continues to work as well as the day it was purchased (or maybe a little better if bug fixes have been updated).

I'd be very surprised if iOS5 didn't run on the 3GS, and to a limited degree, on the 3G.

And I'll be surprised if IphoneOS5 doesn't require 512 MiB of RAM - or at least an A4+256MiB (1G Ipad). We'll just have to wait and see.

Gen 1 iPhone runs iOS3 quite productively

But IphoneOS4 is not supported on the 1G.

 

[mdatwood]

Designer clothes say you lie. Earn and sustain it can mean it just has to pay for it with big marketing dollars.

I don't know, the designer jeans I own are some of the best fitting, highest quality jeans I've owned

I do agree with your point, though my MBPs have given me way less problems than all the PC laptops I owned before them. With that said, my G4 Powerbook was probably the best laptop I ever owned in terms of quality(I sold it to a friend years who is *still* using it) and I do think Apple has slipped some in the quality department since they became 'cool.'

 

[Carniphage]

Image. Not all value is in the product itself my short-sighted friend. Marketing, image and inflated hype can lead to big sales of products with low return on investment.

Yet again, we hear this defensive thesis.

"Apple are doing nothing clever - its just marketing and hype."

Were it that simple, why isn't Microsoft or Nokia replicating Apples profitability? How come Apple spends less on Marketing than Microsoft or Nokia?

And we've now gone very far from the initial conversation about Apple being Market Leader because C. doesn't understand a little word called Context
And people call me a troll...

Actually it was YOU that responded to my post. Not vice versa. Please check the thread history. You were the one that decided to leap in with your "Apple is number 3" thing. Isn't that the context?

You posted - I rebutted. That is not trolling.

And yes, I am clearly stating that the market leadership *is* determined more by profitability than volume. Because volume is achievable by any company prepared to slash margins and dump.

Profitability is only achievable by adding value. It can't be cheated. It is only possible by companies that can sell $200 worth of parts for $600.

I *do* run a business. I am guessing you do not.

C.

 

[Lord Vader]

"Apple are doing nothing clever - its just marketing and hype."

I have heard this for years from all Apple haters and such. Pretty simple "just marketing and hype", I guess others have superior product, but theirs marketing department blows

 

[Xibalba]

While I of course appreciate competition in the marketplace, it's quite sad to see Google whining that "they were first" because they were "working on android earlier." Apple put their work into action and released the iphone. Only then was Google like, crap we should move this android thing from brainstorming work to reality.

 

[gothmog]

what is the argument anyways

xerox created the gui interface not apple...there have been window phones out before the iphone that had internet,there were touch mp3 out before the ipod that even allowed you to use cards instead having to buy a new ipod.frankly there is not a thing that apple actually created except stupidity.apple had a chance to take over the pc market,but stuck to its high prices and strict development.in the end apple has and will always be a 2nd rate company that tries to repackage existing products and then charge an arm and leg for it.

 

[reubs]

While I of course appreciate competition in the marketplace, it's quite sad to see Google whining that "they were first" because they were "working on android earlier." Apple put their work into action and released the iphone. Only then was Google like, crap we should move this android thing from brainstorming work to reality.

Exactly. I think this is what most of the folks on this thread have latched on to, contrary to what some of the Google defenders are saying.

I use Google a lot; they're a good company. Like I said earlier, though, they should be ashamed if they really had been working on Android longer because it's really not nearly as polished as the Apple experience. The Market, while 'open', is really a nightmare to navigate. UIs vary across the board, and whether folks will really admit it, Android actually is fragmented.

 

[Lord Vader]

xerox created the gui interface not apple...there have been window phones out before the iphone that had internet,there were touch mp3 out before the ipod that even allowed you to use cards instead having to buy a new ipod.frankly there is not a thing that apple actually created except stupidity.apple had a chance to take over the pc market,but stuck to its high prices and strict development.in the end apple has and will always be a 2nd rate company that tries to repackage existing products and then charge an arm and leg for it.

The circus already left ...

 

[Carniphage]

I have heard this for years from all Apple haters and such. Pretty simple "just marketing and hype", I guess others have superior product, but theirs marketing department blows

The rationalisation is that Apple achieves this "deception" by spending more on advertising.

But as a proportion of revenue, I know Microsoft spends twice as much on advertising as Apple.

The rebuttal is simple. If achieving profitability is just a cheap trick, why don't the others do it?

C.

 

[Lord Vader]

The rebuttal is simple. If achieving profitability is just a cheap trick, why don't the others do it?

C.

Logic tells that there is more to it (making a product and selling it) than meets the eye, but for some people (i still call them people) it's just "marketing and hype" + scifi brainwashing technique that only Steve Jobs knows. Maybe he's Sith Lord?

 

[blahblah100]

...
The rebuttal is simple. If achieving profitability is just a cheap trick, why don't the others do it?

C.

Company Revenue EBITDA Net Income Profit Margin
MSFT 59.54B 25.25B 17.29B 29.03%
GOOG 24.92B 10.37B 7.05B 28.3%
AAPL 51.12B 15.80B 10.81B 21.15%

You were saying?

 

[Lord Vader]

Company Revenue EBITDA Net Income Profit Margin
MSFT 59.54B 25.25B 17.29B 29.03%
GOOG 24.92B 10.37B 7.05B 28.3%
AAPL 51.12B 15.80B 10.81B 21.15%

You were saying?

You missed the point by a mile.

 

[carlgo]

This is great! Hissy-fits from two huge companies and even huger egos. This could be entertaining for a long time. And, it can only help hold their feet to the fire and result in better products.

I love the phone carrier fights, too. The maps are totally priceless, and the wildly conflicting claims just shows up those companies for the lying robber-barons they are.

In the end, we just buy from the best and most compelling robber-barons, or the only one available to us, like AT&T!

 

[Max(IT)]

Starting personal insults, a great example of having no argument...

Age 5 is not an insult ...

I think it is comical how you defend a company, for that is what Apple is, a company, they don't care about you, they care about making as much money as possible, some take it too far. But since there are tonnes of little sheep in this world willing to over pay for an item they don't care.

Calling people "sheep" just because they like apple's product IS an insult ...

No, I haven't installed OS 4 on my 1G. If you had read my post you'd realize that I don't have an iPhone. What I do have, though, is an HTC Hero that was released in 2009 and is STILL running a 1.x software. The problem here is that Android is on SO many platforms with SO many carriers that each carrier is responsible for getting the OS up to running with their system.

2.x apps are out on the Market (1Password, for ex) that would be GREAT to have, but I can't run it b/c Cellular South and HTC can't get their act together to get a working version for the latest Android OS running on a phone that's less than one year old.

I don't think any G1 owners expect to run 2.1, but there are modded ROMs out there that are running on G1s. Anyone who has an Android phone purchased in the last year has every reason to expect to be running an OS that came out w/in 6 mos of the original release.

Actually there are 2010's Sony ericcson products shipped with 1.6 ...
Fragmentation in Android is a fact.

I find it quite entertaining that a short while ago (look at the older discussions), alot of you now Google-haters were singing Google's praises, some even suggesting the company merge with Apple. You trashed Live in favor of Google's greatness. Google was your savior outside of Apple.

Now, they make a comment about Apple you don't like, or they start ::heaven forbid:: competing with Apple in one area, and now you are casting stones.

And you wonder why logical minds call you fanboys... You can't argue on the basis of facts (like Apple did not invent multi-touch... THEY BOUGHT IT). You ignore anything that doesn't fit what YOU WANT TO BELIEVE.

They are the largest tech company in the world. They are a large, greedy, corporation who lies cheats and steals to get a dollar (oh yeah... they were "STUNNED" to find the misrepresentation of bars in iOS).

Get over yourselves and get an ***** life. The only thing they do better than any other greedy corporation is hire better PR, and have a cast of blind idiots (fanboys) evangelizing worse than a bunch of bible thumping Christians.

You can keep you "blind idiots" for yourself, dude ...

Company Revenue EBITDA Net Income Profit Margin
MSFT 59.54B 25.25B 17.29B 29.03%
GOOG 24.92B 10.37B 7.05B 28.3%
AAPL 51.12B 15.80B 10.81B 21.15%

You were saying?

He was saying you don't know what are you speaking about.

 

[DMann]

And please explain how this "fragmentation" hurts the typical user? Mercedes doesn't upgrade the engine in a year old car, yet people still buy them.

You consider this a sensible analogy? Regardless, a phone's processor would be the closest parallel to a car's engine.

FYI, Mercedes-Benz offers software updates for their navigation systems, which include new features.

To begin to educate yourself on some of the ways fragmentation compromises the typical user, try navigating through the Android Marketplace.

Phones aren't computers with 4 to 6 year productive life spans - when the 20 month upgrade comes around, get a new one!

My Samsung smartphone is nearly 5 years old

Preach one thing, do another.

Only the tech geeks worry about OS upgrades on a phone - most people are happy that a phone continues to work as well as the day it was purchased (or maybe a little better if bug fixes have been updated).

Nonsense - many consumers appreciate having OS updates/firmware updates/bug fixes/new features, etc.

If given a choice, most would likely appreciate an upgrade path.

But IphoneOS4 is not supported on the 1G.

Your point?

The 1G iPhone received two major OS/firmware updates with new features, one in 2008, and another in 2009.

Obversely, each new Android phone is stuck with its original OS/firmware/bug's/missing features - as is - forever - no upgrade path.

Actually there are 2010's Sony ericcson products shipped with 1.6 ... Fragmentation in Android is a fact.

And so the gap widens.

 

[Carniphage]

Company Revenue EBITDA Net Income Profit Margin
MSFT 59.54B 25.25B 17.29B 29.03%
GOOG 24.92B 10.37B 7.05B 28.3%
AAPL 51.12B 15.80B 10.81B 21.15%

You were saying?

These are all accurate figures..
MS is currently more profitable than Apple. And deservedly so.

But given we were discussing cellphones. It might be fairer to compare the results of the cellphone divisions, rather than comparing other aspects of corporate performance.

If we tease the numbers apart, Apple's handset-only profits exceed those of Nokia, Microsoft and Google. Which is why I think it is reasonable to assert that Apple is the market leader in this space. The one that other companies are trying to catch.

C.

 

[jmull]

The first iPhone was basically an iPod that made phone calls. The iPod was around since 2001. Who's to say Apple didn't start developing the iPhone along with the iPod.

And Jobs said he thought up the iPad before the iPhone..

 

[Carniphage]

Maybe he's Sith Lord?

Always two there is. A master and a pupil.

C.

 

[jfanning]

I am not really. You are attacking Apple, and I am making fun of that.

Yes you were, I wasn't "attacking" Apple like you claimed, but you were quick to jump in and defend anything Apple did.

So your tiresome tirades about the evil nature of Apple-like capitalism is relevant to this how?

Because you made a claim that I disagreed with, last time I checked you didn't run this forum, so if you make a claim and I can counter it.

So Jobs' assertion that Google trod on Apple's toes (and not vice versa) seems reasonable.

But the fact that Apple knew that Google had purchased a company that developed an OS for mobile phones prior to the release of the iPhone is also reasonable, and shouldn't have been any surprise to Jobs

Correct or not, it is Apple's *interpretation* of events that makes this interesting. Apple perceives Google's actions as openly hostile - and has escalated the conflict.

They are both companies, neither are 100%, or even 50%, or even 25% owned by the same person, they are allowed to compete. If you believe the Jobs playacting that Google has hurt their feelings, then I'm sorry for you.