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cthompson94

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2022
805
1,157
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like i said standards are essential to technology. Then Google is your friend here to search for the reasoning. If you don't understand that by the examples provided...I cannot help you.




Standards allow technology to work seamlessly and establish trust so that markets can operate smoothly. They: provide a common language to measure and evaluate performance, make interoperability of components made by different companies possible,

Why is standardization important in technology?


To achieve efficient or "seamless" integration, the standards and protocols define what rules hardware components must adhere to in order to exchange signals between applications software and operating systems at different levels in the network.


Why are standards important in computing?


Standards enable the global interoperability of technical solutions while ensuring that the technical progress can be applied smoothly on a global scale. Without international standards it would be much more difficult to interact with partners in different countries or on different continents.

The essential role of technology standards​

Driving interoperability, ecosystem development, and future innovation.

Standards are important because they enable technologies and even industries to progress faster than they would on their own. If IBM had not set the PC standard, the development of computers, hardware and software, would not have progressed as fast as it has. Even with these benefits companies are very cautious in their approach to standards. There has been much hype recently about the need to change the established standards board model to one that follows the Internet model of setting standards on the fly. This paper will argue that basic considerations in setting standards have not changed as much as people say. Although standards boards have been instrumental in many ways throughout the years, many product and industry standards are settles by market forces. The issues of standard setting in the classic example of a standards war, VHS versus Betamax, are still the same issues confronting today's standards decisions.


There literally is too many to list here so I will leave those examples for a 30 second Google search.




Then by all means look at USB C...if lightening was so good why did Apple put USB C on high end iPads? This was BEFORE being made to do so for iPhones? All this lead to was fragmentation and confusion.

Then your paragraph about RCS exemplifies the reason for a standard messaging platform across the board.
Listen I don't care if that standard is RCS or iMessage. They need to stop fragmentation and evolve to one standard.
I never argued that standardization is bad I even said in one of my replies to you that I am for standardization if current security measures for example in iMessage are met or exceeded. Currently with RCS that involves protocols and Google is very vocal about wanting others to use RCS, but to get the same security standard would require one to use a protocol that supports E2E encryption and that would be for instance Google-Google protocol, Samsung-Samsung protocol, Apple-Apple protocol, these will not work Google-Apple encryption. I think you may have been mistaken when I stated using Google to not look up how standardization could be good, but you even though a hypothetical with IBM because we don't know what would have actually happened if IBM didn't set the standard because we can't go back in time to see what would happen. Standardization can also lead to stagnation in your provided examples, it takes companies making things like VHS tapes and whatnot obsolete. So standardization is good and beneficial until it isn't and no one knows how long the new standard will last. In the examples you provided being VHS, Betamax, heck even CDs, and whatnot the standard shifting caused a lot of waste too and makes things like getting repairs/updates/fixes more difficult if you happen to fall in purchasing something at the end/beginning of a standard shift.

Again, I will say it again sure give me a standard in messaging and even interoperability where not one company basically rules them all, because as stated and widely known RCS in its standard form would not last long because of the standard file size capability. For example, the STANDARD for RCS is 100MB file size limit, and with phones recording in 4K if someone records at 60 fps it would be about 400MB per minute approx 4x the standard limit for RCS so the standard still doesn't solve the sending videos to people. What would solve it is the protocols used for compression and sending, but wait that would fall back on the company specific protocol requirement. I am not going to continue beating the drum of the security issues.

"Then by all means look at USB C...if lightening was so good why did Apple put USB C on high end iPads? This was BEFORE being made to do so for iPhones? All this lead to was fragmentation and confusion."

I never stated that lightening was better did I? that must be how you interpreted it.... I said that the STANDARD for USB-C is the same as the capability of lightening, therefore the ONLY benefit of the forced change is cable use. I never said that was bad, I never said that wasn't wanted by the worldwide majority, I never said anything bad about the change, look at my signature all of the devices I own had USB-C prior to the iPhone change, with the exception of my Airpods Pro because the change to USB-C for those was (for me) no reason to buy the new standard since nothing but the cable changed.

Edit: typo
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
15,841
18,402
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"Then by all means look at USB C...if lightening was so good why did Apple put USB C on high end iPads? This was BEFORE being made to do so for iPhones? All this lead to was fragmentation and confusion."

I never stated that lightening was better did I? that must be how you interpreted it.... I said that the STANDARD for USB-C is the same as the capability of lightening, therefore the ONLY benefit of the forced change is cable use. I never said that was bad, I never said that wasn't wanted by the worldwide majority, I never said anything bad about the change, look at my signature all of the devices I own had USB-C prior to the iPhone change, with the exception of my Airpods Pro because the change to USB-C for those was (for me) no reason to buy the new standard since nothing but the cable changed.

Edit: typo

I said that the STANDARD for USB-C is the same as the capability of lightening, therefore the ONLY benefit of the forced change is cable use.
Not true see below



USB-C is just faster and more reliable too. It transmits more data and power across a broader range of devices than Lightning. Lightning could only transmit 480 Mbps, while USB-C can go to 40 Gbps — almost 85 times faster data transfer.

USB-C is capable of supporting USB4, the latest and fastest USB specification. As a result, USB-C cables can transfer speeds up to 40Gbps. By comparison, Lightning cables are much slower and transfer data at USB 2.0 rates of 480Mbps.


Why do people prefer USB-C over Lightning?

USB-C offers a higher power delivery rate than Lightning and delivers a faster charge under the same voltage. Whereas Lightning supports a maximum current of 2.4A, USB-C carries 3A with support for up to 5A.

 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,788
10,914
Not true see below



USB-C is just faster and more reliable too. It transmits more data and power across a broader range of devices than Lightning. Lightning could only transmit 480 Mbps, while USB-C can go to 40 Gbps — almost 85 times faster data transfer.

USB-C is capable of supporting USB4, the latest and fastest USB specification. As a result, USB-C cables can transfer speeds up to 40Gbps. By comparison, Lightning cables are much slower and transfer data at USB 2.0 rates of 480Mbps.


Why do people prefer USB-C over Lightning?

USB-C offers a higher power delivery rate than Lightning and delivers a faster charge under the same voltage. Whereas Lightning supports a maximum current of 2.4A, USB-C carries 3A with support for up to 5A.

You're conflating ports and protocols. USB-C isn't faster or slower. It's just the design of the connector.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
15,841
18,402
US
You're conflating ports and protocols. USB-C isn't faster or slower. It's just the design of the connector.
so you disagree with the experts in the links i provided? Show me your data to prove what you say? I have posted data so now it is your turn to post data to back up what you say.
Then to be honest here...i was advocating standards and using USB-C as an example of having a unified standard port on all devices.
 

cthompson94

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2022
805
1,157
SoCal
Not true see below



USB-C is just faster and more reliable too. It transmits more data and power across a broader range of devices than Lightning. Lightning could only transmit 480 Mbps, while USB-C can go to 40 Gbps — almost 85 times faster data transfer.

USB-C is capable of supporting USB4, the latest and fastest USB specification. As a result, USB-C cables can transfer speeds up to 40Gbps. By comparison, Lightning cables are much slower and transfer data at USB 2.0 rates of 480Mbps.


Why do people prefer USB-C over Lightning?

USB-C offers a higher power delivery rate than Lightning and delivers a faster charge under the same voltage. Whereas Lightning supports a maximum current of 2.4A, USB-C carries 3A with support for up to 5A.

We have literally been discussing standards, not capabilities....the USB-C standard. I will say the standard for USB-C once more.... All USB-C cables must be able to carry a minimum of 3 A current (at 5 V, for 15 W) which again all I stated was that lightening supported the minimum standard as we are again talking standards and have been talking standards. The EU never mentioned that it needed to be a higher standard than the minimum correct? therefore what I said still stands. I even upgraded to the iPhone 15 PM because of the capabilities benefits me, but again the power capabilities didn't change the data capabilities did therefore benefitted me. If the data capabilities of USB-C in the 15PM did not change then I would not have upgraded as the power capabilities did not change.

Do not have a conversation with me about standards then change it to capabilities to try to show me up. the benefit is a current difference of 0.6A (going off standard USB-C) which doesn't even apply to the iPhone since the USB-C change didn't take advantage of this little boost.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,788
10,914
so you disagree with the experts in the links i provided? Show me your data to prove what you say? I have posted data so now it is your turn to post data to back up what you say.
Then to be honest here...i was advocating standards and using USB-C as an example of having a unified standard port on all devices.
What data? I just stated a fact. USB-C using the USB2 protocol is the same speed as Lightning using the USB2 protocol. Lightning using USB3 protocol is the same speed as USB-C using the USB3 protocol.

For example, you and your source claimed that lightning is limited to USB2 speeds. That's obviously not true, since it supported USB3 speeds on the iPad Pro.

Apple just never implemented faster transfer protocols on the iPhone for whatever reason.
 
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jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
15,841
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We have literally been discussing standards, not capabilities....the USB-C standard. I will say the standard for USB-C once more.... All USB-C cables must be able to carry a minimum of 3 A current (at 5 V, for 15 W) which again all I stated was that lightening supported the minimum standard as we are again talking standards and have been talking standards. The EU never mentioned that it needed to be a higher standard than the minimum correct? therefore what I said still stands. I even upgraded to the iPhone 15 PM because of the capabilities benefits me, but again the power capabilities didn't change the data capabilities did therefore benefitted me. If the data capabilities of USB-C in the 15PM did not change then I would not have upgraded as the power capabilities did not change.

Do not have a conversation with me about standards then change it to capabilities to try to show me up. the benefit is a current difference of 0.6A (going off standard USB-C) which doesn't even apply to the iPhone since the USB-C change didn't take advantage of this little boost.
Nope YOU said the below and that is WHY i posted the benefits of USB-C over Lightening
Faster data speeds and faster charging
I said that the STANDARD for USB-C is the same as the capability of lightening, therefore the ONLY benefit of the forced change is cable use.
 

cthompson94

macrumors 6502a
Jan 10, 2022
805
1,157
SoCal
Nope YOU said the below and that is WHY i posted the benefits of USB-C over Lightening
Faster data speeds and faster charging
Okay you are right I stayed the same and didn’t account for the 0.6A (which in the iPhone isn’t used) difference my mistake, in my head I was thinking iPhone change to USB-C which since nothing changed power wise I ignored that .6A thanks for pointing that out, but my argument still stands since in that part in the beginning was referencing Apple changing to USB-C which in current/new iPhone has no power change compared to lightening now next year sure there may be a difference and that’s next year. Back to the topic of the thread being messages
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
15,841
18,402
US
What data? I just stated a fact. USB-C using the USB2 protocol is the same speed as Lightning using the USB2 protocol. Lightning using USB3 protocol is the same speed as USB-C using the USB3 protocol.

For example, you and your source claimed that lightning is limited to USB2 speeds. That's obviously not true, since it supported USB3 speeds on the iPad Pro.

Apple just never implemented faster transfer protocols on the iPhone for whatever reason.
just read the article you posted...it literally says you need an adapter that doesn't exist to get that to work.
Then i posted data that proves USB-C is faster.

You linked an article from 2015 that contradicts itself

"Of course, there is a catch. A Lightning-to-USB 3.0 adapter doesn't exist yet, so we're left waiting until Apple releases that particular accessory to access the faster transfer speeds. Apple fans have been testing the device with current USB 2.0 cables and have found that those accessories appear to be missing a sufficient number of pins to meet the USB 3.0 criteria."
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,497
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Anti-consumerism on overdrive?
If you truly think every company should have their own standard you have absolutely no technological or historic insight into the field you are whining about.

Historically, many standards came into being because companies wanted to make more money, not to benefit consumers.
Like I said you don't understand standards.... Its not about making a better system or product. Its about conforming to industry standards so messages and video are great quantity no matter what platform is ending or receiving the message or media.

However, stanrds generally set some lowest common denominator and companies add fetures while supporting the minimum requirements.

The hostility in this thread is unbelievable. Standardization and consolidation is how the tech industry has operated for decades. In a mobile-first ecosystem, iMessage is as essential as email is to a desktop ecosystem. And all email providers are interchangeable. It would be a nightmare if Gmail users couldn't email Outlook users, and iCloud emails only went to other iCloud users.

However, even with email you some companies fail to follow the standards and thus messages don’t work properly, for example email address.

Google is your friend here..all you have to do is look for any and everything about standards and why they are essential.

Then email does have underlying standards on how the message is delivered and and the protocols used for this.
BUT it does not have a enforceable control on how that messaged is displayed in different email applications.


Then no one said anything about sending pictures of grandma in an unsecure way. That example is why we need a standard.
There can be a protocol developed by everyone that is secure and encrypted. Then it becomes THE standard! Then everyone uses it and consumers have the same user experience across all platforms and devices.

When companies go outside of the agreed upon standards and create their own standards it leads to the fragmentation we see now in messaging
Historically standards have not prevented fragmentation and companies adding features beyond the standard.

As for encryption, some will want stronger encryption and result will be a standard with various incompatible extensions.

In addition, one encryption standard could very well erode security.

Look at USB C...it took legislation for Apple to add USB C to the iPhone 15. Even though USB C is faster and the industry standard.

Wait till people discover the mandated standard doesn’t mean they can simply buy a cable and it will work simply because USB-C connections are on it.

Then your paragraph about RCS exemplifies the reason for a standard messaging platform across the board.
Listen I don't care if that standard is RCS or iMessage. They need to stop fragmentation and evolve to one standard.

We do. It’s called SMS.
 

Stromos

macrumors 6502a
Jul 1, 2016
795
1,912
Woodstock, GA
But there are ways to hide your email address. There are ways to make yourself invisible when browsing the internet from advertisers. We give up our data for the sake of extra features and convenience.
But that has nothing to do with standards as I was describing in the context of my posts.
Ways to hide your email address are not part of the "standard". It's amazing you said we could make a secure encrypted standard then backpedal.

Why is email so insecure? To quote you, "There can be a protocol developed by everyone that is secure and encrypted. Then it becomes THE standard! Then everyone uses it and consumers have the same user experience across all platforms and devices." So if it's so simple why is email unchanged all these years?

Pretty sure most of us want email to be E2E encrypted as the "standard" but its not. Why are governments fighting Apple and others for not having backdoors? The people don't want that.

You seem to have this dream of the perfect universal messaging platform but it's so strange that there is literally no real world example of it. It's almost like once something is a standard like say email, that just means it will never improve. You are fighting for RCS the RCS "standard" is unencrypted and basically email 2.0. Google threw encryption on top which once against isn't "standard".

Kind of like how if tomorrow someone has a better option for USB C or HDMI it will now take years for it to be allowed.

Standards are another word for stagnation. If I'm wrong then email would "be a protocol developed by everyone that is secure and encrypted."
 
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jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
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Historically, many standards came into being because companies wanted to make more money, not to benefit consumers.


However, stanrds generally set some lowest common denominator and companies add fetures while supporting the minimum requirements.



However, even with email you some companies fail to follow the standards and thus messages don’t work properly, for example email address.


Historically standards have not prevented fragmentation and companies adding features beyond the standard.

As for encryption, some will want stronger encryption and result will be a standard with various incompatible extensions.

In addition, one encryption standard could very well erode security.



Wait till people discover the mandated standard doesn’t mean they can simply buy a cable and it will work simply because USB-C connections are on it.



We do. It’s called SMS.
good points! But have to get clarification on the below? I can buy any USB-C cable and it will work on my 15 PM
Wait till people discover the mandated standard doesn’t mean they can simply buy a cable and it will work simply because USB-C connections are on it.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,788
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just read the article you posted...it literally says you need an adapter that doesn't exist to get that to work.
Then i posted data that proves USB-C is faster.

You linked an article from 2015 that contradicts itself

"Of course, there is a catch. A Lightning-to-USB 3.0 adapter doesn't exist yet, so we're left waiting until Apple releases that particular accessory to access the faster transfer speeds. Apple fans have been testing the device with current USB 2.0 cables and have found that those accessories appear to be missing a sufficient number of pins to meet the USB 3.0 criteria."
How does that change the fact that lightning supported USB3 speeds?
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
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Or that USB-C cables still can be USB 2.0, never mind that the USB-C connector was part of the USB 3.1 standard.
Therein lies one of the major problems with USB. Too much confusion in how they name everything.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
15,841
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How does that change the fact that lightning supported USB3 speeds?
Sorry I can't answer something that never happened. Even your article said it never worked because it needed and non existent adapter. So something was possible that never happened?
Hey...I could win the lottery tomorrow too...it could happen. On paper i have a chance......
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,788
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Sorry I can't answer something that never happened. Even your article said it never worked because it needed and non existent adapter. So something was possible that never happened?
Hey...I could win the lottery tomorrow too...it could happen. On paper i have a chance......
Sigh. The adapter existed. It just wasn't available at launch.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,497
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good points! But have to get clarification on the below? I can buy any USB-C cable and it will work on my 15 PM

Not true. A cable need not supply power, may not have data connections but only provide power, etc. The spec doesn't require any particular implementation for a cable and even allows custom configurations. Most consumer grade cables will at least charge, but cheap ones may not do data or only support the minimum charging capability even if the phone supports higher power levels.

The EU rule hasn't done anything other than change connectors.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
15,841
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Sigh. The adapter existed. It just wasn't available at launch.
wow talk about moving the goal posts! Now its a USB camera adapter? The first article you listed from 2015 said ti didn't exist. The camera accessory wasn't released until 2018 3 years later.
This has literally nothing to do with what was discussed. This is an accessory and not an USB-C cable used to connect your phone to charge or transfer data. This is lightening cable that can be used to connect to a camera OR be used to connect a USB-C cable to attain a fraction of the speeds of a regular USB-C cable......wow what a stretch
31Otf7xtDaL._AC_SL1024_.jpg
 
Last edited:

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
15,841
18,402
US
Not true. A cable need not supply power, may not have data connections but only provide power, etc. The spec doesn't require any particular implementation for a cable and even allows custom configurations. Most consumer grade cables will at least charge, but cheap ones may not do data or only support the minimum charging capability even if the phone supports higher power levels.

The EU rule hasn't done anything other than change connectors.
it is true...i have tons of USB-C cables from other devices I have. They all work with my iPhone 15 Pro Max....
I use cheap ones from Amazon to connect to my truck...I use the same cheap one to connect or my MBA 15 and my iPad. The devices don't know the difference...everything works.
 

1129846

Cancelled
Mar 25, 2021
528
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RCS wasn’t really ready for prime time, none of the carriers’ implementations were interoperable prior to Jibe. Plus, Apple (rightly) wanted to displace the carriers’ control over user experience. And Apple wanted to offer iMessage on the iPad and Mac (and to offer messaging without requiring a telephone number as an identifier). And, what’s more, Apple offered the carriers iMessage (on Apple’s terms), and the carriers rejected it. Basically, RCS was still an experiment back in 2011, and Apple had every reason to avoid it.

RCS would be a complete non-issue if Google had adults in charge and had maintained Hangouts, their one successful messaging platform. Unfortunately, though, Google was afraid of upsetting the carriers who sold cheap Android hardware, so they handicapped themselves in terms of messaging, and they’re still giving the hecklers’ veto to the carriers (who absolutely don’t want to be dumb data pipes, instead of being the best dumb data pipe they can be).
Apple offered the carriers iMessage (on Apple’s terms)

Those are key words. Apple terms. Apple's terms tend to have MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE poison pills so it is a non starter.
You are right RCS was experimental back in 2011. That is very different than joining and and working on setting a new standard. Apple said FU to do that. We are not year later.

As for Hangout being maintain it would not be a case here. What makes iMessage so powerful is they integrated into the text messaging platform and it defaults to using that system if possible. It was to the point Apple got sued and LOST about locking up peoples phone numbers after they left Apple eco system making it damn near impossible for a while to force iPhone users to send SMS to a given user.

Hangouts would of match that is google followed suit and did the same thing. Sadly Apple never would of implemented the cross talk system in place so not there.

People saying Apple opened standard it and "offered" it to others are repeating a lie. You basically just lied and repeated it. End of the day Apple is the odd one out here.
 
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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
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wow talk about moving the goal posts! Now its a USB camera adapter? The first article you listed from 2015 said ti didn't exist. The camera accessory wasn't released until 2018 3 years later.
This has literally nothing to do with what was discussed. This is an accessory and not an USB-C cable used to connect your phone to charge or transfer data. This is lightening cable that can be used to connect to a camera OR be used to connect a USB-C cable to attain a fraction of the speeds of a regular USB-C cable......wow what a stretch
31Otf7xtDaL._AC_SL1024_.jpg
You're going off onto a tangent here. My only point is that lightning supported USB3 transfer speeds. Period.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,497
4,281
it is true...i have tons of USB-C cables from other devices I have. They all work with my iPhone 15 Pro Max....
I use cheap ones from Amazon to connect to my truck...I use the same cheap one to connect or my MBA 15 and my iPad. The devices don't know the difference...everything works.

As I said, many will work, even cheap ones though often they only provide power; but my point was USB-C does not ensure a cable will work properly since cables can be wired many ways and sized for various power and data connections; USB-C only specifies connector design and pinout and not all pins need to be used.

And in TB with USB-C connectors and it gets even more confusing.

For real confusion, USB-A to USB-C adapters may not support all the functionality needed to power and transfer data. I suspect that is part of the problem people experience using them for CarPlay and have a power only adapter.
 
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jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
15,841
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As I said, many will work, even cheap ones though often they only provide power; but my point was USB-C does not ensure a cable will work properly since cables can be wired many ways and sized for various power and data connections; USB-C only specifies connector design and pinout and not all pins need to be used.

And in TB with USB-C connectors and it gets even more confusing.

For real confusion, USB-A to USB-C adapters may not support all the functionality needed to power and transfer data. I suspect that is part of the problem people experience using them for CarPlay and have a power only adapter.
But they all do work properly. So far I have not had one not work properly for me. They all sync and charge my devices.
Maybe I have just been lucky.
 

jamezr

macrumors P6
Aug 7, 2011
15,841
18,402
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You're going off onto a tangent here. My only point is that lightning supported USB3 transfer speeds. Period.
No tangent here...you listed a very very niche example trying to insinuate it as the norm.
Those speeds area fraction of the USB-C speeds.

"Most Lightning devices only supported USB 2.0, which has a maximum transfer speed of 480 mbps or 60 MB/s. Only the 12.9-inch iPad Pro (1st and 2nd generation) and 10.5-inch iPad Pro support USB 3.0 (now USB 3.2 Gen 1), which has a maximum transfer speed of 5 gbps or 625 MB/s."

 
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