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Smart move on Apple's part to make this happen. #1 Search engine linking to the #1 music store keeps #1 music store on top, even with the competitors link right next to it. We are in the era of "When Google ruled the world", so Apple should use Google to it's fullest potential. :)
 
Kelmon said:
I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I love iTunes but I don't always have access to iTunes and I don't want Apple to effectively dictate HOW I can listen to the music that I have bought. To give one particular example, the Roku SoundBridge can't play music purchased from the iTunes Music Store so the only way that I can stream music to my hifi is to buy an AirPort Express, even if I am using iTunes as the media player anyway.

Basically, it's my music and I want to decide how I listen to it, not have to buy an Apple product or (worse) wait for them to get around to releasing something.

Then buy your music somewhere else. It's that easy.

Apple built a closed system that works extraordinarily well. But it's closed, and, as long as they're not breaking antitrust laws, it's Apple's prerogitave to keep it that way.

The anti-DRM rants are hollow for this same exact reason.
 
I like choice, but I also think Apple is within their rights to compete against the Microsoft monopoly by creating iTunes and iPod as a system together (which is not entirely closed). iPod sales help Mac sales, and I think Apple is within their rights to CHOOSE when and how (and for what fees) to let other companies make money off their success. Apple clearly doesn't think that time is now.

Remember, MS has an OS and office-suite monopoly and have leveraged that to force their way into other areas, like browsers and instant messaging. Apple gained their music success by no such leverage: they did it by offering a quality product. Several, in fact, integrated--but each usable WITHOUT the others too. I used iTMS without an iPod. And you can use an iPod without the Music Store.

I want companies to compete against Apple and force Apple to improve, but I respect that Apple is not obligated to help out competitors just because I'd like it. So these companies must--and DO--have their own systems of player AND store. If Apple gives Fairplay to player makers, that hurts iPod sales. If Apple gives Fairplay to other stores, that hurts iTMS. (It might give a very tiny boost to iPod sales, but it would also leave iPod owners blaming Apple for frustrations with non-Apple stores. Apple WOULD catch flak for the non-integrated system.)

Plus, every time Apple had to update their DRM details (for technological reasons, or to support new features like video, or due to agreements with record labels, or to fix bugs, or to respond to pirates), Apple would likely have to coordinate with all the OTHER users of Fairplay. Either that, or just tell companies: "You can pay us to use Fairplay, but we may update our own store and iPods in ways that break your store--or player--at any time. We can't be bothered to spend time supporting you. When a change happens, it's your problem to play catch-up." I don't see "license Fairplay" in the simple way that some do. (And would those other stores support Mac? So far, no.)

I DO see opening up Fairplay as a more likely move than supporting WMA. THAT would be directly helping Microsoft in the long run. Opening Fairplay would "only" hurt Apple sales, in exchange for some kind of fees.

But the time may be right one day for all of the above. The day may even come when Apple has a true monopoly, abuses it like Microsoft did, and is forced (unlike Microsoft's slap on the wrist by the Bush administration) to change its ways. But we're not there yet.

And to answer a question asked above: antritrust laws should be followed and enforced for all companies, but it DOES "bother me" less when Apple does something that Microsoft. Of course it does: Apple's success is based on quality products, while Microsoft's is based on being first (to buy and re-sell MS-DOS) and biggest (by being first)--despite a lot of mediocrity. And Apple is the underdog while MS is the company that kills off good competing products all the time. And I USE Apple products, not Microsoft products. So yes, even though Apple does a few awful things (iTunes not being one of them :) ), like most big companies... I am "bothered" less by Apple's success and closed stance with iPod than I am by Microsoft's success and closed stance with Windows. Even if anyone suggests the two situations are comparable (which they aren't truly).

Now if Apple used their iPod success, say, to start calculatedly killing off mobile phone makers in order to sell a mediocre Apple phone line that couldn't compete on its own merits, THAT would be monopoly abuse MS-style, and I would NOT be OK with that.

In other news, Google informs me that Dead Can Dance have re-formed and been touring :)
 
Malfoy said:
Current State of iPod:
iTunes music works
No one elses does
=perfect interoperability

Possible future of iPod
itunes music works
Others work
= not perfect interoperability?!

Is this based on monopolies are cool as long as its Apple? I mean really how can you assume others having access to sell music is going to hurt interoperability? It's not like other people are going to be rewriting the bios with every song dl.


Its not a monopoly. It could only be a monopoly if the iPod were the only MP3 player. If you dont want to use an iPod simply buy something else. Thats like saying .mac is a monopoly because you need a Mac for it.
 
Kelmon said:
I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I love iTunes but I don't always have access to iTunes and I don't want Apple to effectively dictate HOW I can listen to the music that I have bought. To give one particular example, the Roku SoundBridge can't play music purchased from the iTunes Music Store so the only way that I can stream music to my hifi is to buy an AirPort Express, even if I am using iTunes as the media player anyway.

Basically, it's my music and I want to decide how I listen to it, not have to buy an Apple product or (worse) wait for them to get around to releasing something.

If you dont want to use a Roku, then simply burn your purchased music to a CD and then import it back into the library.
 
Sunrunner said:
If you dont want to use a Roku, then simply burn your purchased music to a CD and then import it back into the library.
Does nobody understand that you lose quality this way? :rolleyes:
 
SiliconAddict said:
Thank you for treating the consumer as a 5 year old child. Can you get any more arrogant? I use iTunes but I've dabbled in other media players and I fully understand why other do not want to use iTunes. Its a choice you should at the minimum respect.


It is just that, a choice. Use the iTMS/iPod package, or use something else. Choose. Dont complain though if Apple chooses to make it a closed loop, because you have a choice. Its their system and thusly their choice.
 
Randall said:
Does nobody understand that you lose quality this way? :rolleyes:


Of course, but your the one who bought the Rokr without fully analyzing the implications. If the purchased music was such an issue for you, you should have gone with another audio streaming solution such as the airport express.
 
Sunrunner said:
It is just that, a choice. Use the iTMS/iPod package, or use something else. Choose. Dont complain though if Apple chooses to make it a closed loop, because you have a choice. Its their system and thusly their choice.

by your reasoning, microsoft can do what the hell they like, because its their system ( and abuse it how they like ).

Oh, but closed minded apple users on this site believe: no other company is allowed to control their products and how they are used, and access, EXCEPT Apple. If this Apple, all is good, any other company, and its a big no no.
 
Stella said:
by your reasoning, microsoft can do what the hell they like, because its their system ( and abuse it how they like ).

Oh, but closed minded apple users on this site believe: no other company is allowed to control their products and how they are used, and access, EXCEPT Apple. If this Apple, all is good, any other company, and its a big no no.

Your right, Microsoft can do whatever the heck they want with their system and I dont give a rats a$$. If you dont like it, buy a Mac.
 
Sunrunner said:
Your right, Microsoft can do whatever the heck they want with their system and I dont give a rats a$$. If you dont like it, buy a Mac.
Amen. If you don't like the way a company writes their OS, then write your own OS!!!
 
Randall said:
Does nobody understand that you lose quality this way? :rolleyes:
Of course that can happen, but more accurately: you have the choice to lose quality OR disk space. You DON'T have to lose quality.

Burn a CD from the Windows Media store of your choice. The CD will have exactly the full quality of the download you purchased. Then rip the CD into iTunes as Apple Lossless (or WAV if you prefer). Again, exactly the full quality--and a much smaller file than normal CD audio too. But not AS small as MP3/MP4/AAC, so you have given up some storage space. If you choose to save storage space and use AAC, then you have second level of loss introduced, as you say. Some will notice the difference, some won't.

If I wanted to buy a few songs that I could only get from a non-iTunes (Windows-only) store, then that's what I'd use: Apple Lossless. A few MB lost here and there, but no quality lost. If I wanted to buy ALL my songs from a Windows-only store, then I'd lose even more storage--to the point of possibly having to pay more for a larger iPod capacity. But that's a choice I have.
 
nagromme said:
I like choice, but I also think Apple is within their rights to compete against the Microsoft monopoly by creating iTunes and iPod as a system together (which is not entirely closed).

[snip]

Now if Apple used their iPod success, say, to start calculatedly killing off mobile phone makers in order to sell a mediocre Apple phone line that couldn't compete on its own merits, THAT would be monopoly abuse MS-style, and I would NOT be OK with that.

I agree with your views entirely here. You know, I think the biggest "win" Microsoft has had with the whole anti-trust thing is to propogate an incorrect view of what they actually did wrong. Too many people look at the whole fiasco and walk away with "monopoly == unethical", or even "monopoly == illegal". Neither of which is true. But Microsoft has somehow been able to spin things so that anyone (other than themselves, of course) who makes a closed platform is somehow being shady.

WMA is closed as well, no one has rights to that platform except Microsoft. But because they choose to license it to everyone and their brother (for a fee of course) they are somehow viewed as being the good guys here. The whole thing is ridiculous. The DRM used in WMA by Microsoft is exactly as closed as the DRM used in ACC (FairPlay) by Apple. Apple just doesn't license their DRM to anyone. They don't collect fees, and in return no one is authorized to use it.

It is that simple. Apple is under no legal, ethical, or moral obligation to license fairplay, and they NEVER will be - regardless of the amount of market share they obtain with it. Now at some point they may deem it financially advantageous to license it, but that would be based on their situation and market conditions. Not any laws that are currently in place.

And even if they were found in abuse of some monopoly power (note that they do not have a monopoly, yet, at least not in any legal sense) it is still unlikely that the courts could force them to license fairplay as part of their sanctions. They might, of course, if it was part of some "arrangement" they arrived at, but any speculation here is completely insane since it is predicated on a pretty long string of unlikely events. Not that this seems to stop anyone... :rolleyes:
 
nagromme said:
Of course that can happen, but more accurately: you have the choice to lose quality OR disk space. You DON'T have to lose quality.

Burn a CD from the Windows Media store of your choice. The CD will have exactly the full quality of the download you purchased. Then rip the CD into iTunes as Apple Lossless (or WAV if you prefer). Again, exactly the full quality--and a much smaller file than normal CD audio too. But not AS small as MP3/MP4/AAC, so you have given up some storage space. If you choose to save storage space and use AAC, then you have second level of loss introduced, as you say. Some will notice the difference, some won't.

If I wanted to buy a few songs that I could only get from a non-iTunes (Windows-only) store, then that's what I'd use: Apple Lossless. A few MB lost here and there, but no quality lost. If I wanted to buy ALL my songs from a Windows-only store, then I'd lose even more storage--to the point of possibly having to pay more for a larger iPod capacity. But that's a choice I have.
Exactly what the hell is the point of using a lossless codec on a lossy audio file??
 
Stella said:
Oh, but closed minded apple users on this site believe: no other company is allowed to control their products and how they are used, and access, EXCEPT Apple. If this Apple, all is good, any other company, and its a big no no.

I'll throw out a possibility for discussion here...

Maybe, just maybe, NOT all ways to "control your product" are equal. Maybe there are ways to "control your product" that do more harm than other ways.

Maybe the way Microsoft has "controlled their product" by using their Windows OS monopoly to break into OTHER realms is more objectionable than Apple "controlling their product" by keeping their music offerings together as one.

If you think what Apple has done here is really in the same league as Microsoft, and it bothers you just as much, that's a perfectly valid opinion and I have no objection to you holding it.

But there IS another opinion that's very valid: the opinion that there ARE important differences between what Microsoft has done and what Apple has done with music, and that Apple's success is based on quality, while Microsoft's is less so.

Now, that may change: Apple using their music success to lock other, better companies out of video, while offering mediocre video services themselves would be an example. (There ARE ways to grow iTunes into video without violating antitrust laws--it's not like Apple can't ever do video just because they are successful with audio. But there may also be ways that DO violate the law, and I hope Apple doesn't cross that line. That would be Microsoft-like.)
 
Randall said:
Exactly what the hell is the point of using a lossless codec on a lossy audio file??
The point is the one YOU raised: adding loss is something to avoid.

Compress a music file a SECOND time and it can sound worse than the original compression. Isn't that the objection you made above?

Apple Lossless avoids that.

Take a GIF, save it as a JPEG. Double compression. Ugly. Take the same GIF and save it as a lossless PNG. NO double compression. Better quality. There IS a point to using a lossless codec on a lossy file. The point is to avoid the problem you stated above.
 
nagromme said:
The point is the one YOU raised: adding loss is something to avoid.

Compress a music file a SECOND time and it can sound worse than the original compression. Isn't that the objection you made above?

Apple Lossless avoids that.

Take a GIF, save it as a JPEG. Double compression. Ugly. Take the same GIF and save it as a lossless PNG. NO double compression. Better quality. There IS a point to using a lossless codec on a lossy file. The point is to avoid the problem you stated above.
Ok I guess that is a workable solution to avoid further loss... but a better solution would be just to leave it alone, and have maximum compression/quality ratio.
 
Randall said:
Ok I guess that is a workable solution to avoid further loss... but a better solution would be just to leave it alone, and have maximum compression/quality ratio.
Agreed. No trade-offs that way.

Better yet, sell us lossless files :)
 
nagromme said:
Agreed. No trade-offs that way.

Better yet, sell us lossless files :)
That would be awesome, but I'm guessing that online music store providers are too cheap to use that kind of bandwidth for us, even if we are paying for the song itself. The first music store that decides to provide lossless compression will have my undivided attention (regardless of DRM, which will easily be circumvented with any recompression of our choice.)

...hmm prehaps that is another resason why lossless isn't available too.
 
Microsoft still make Apple look like Angels ( just about ) due to their ( ms ) abuses in the past.

I understand that iPod and iTunes / iTMS is supposed to be a package - designed for ease of use and to ensure a quality that Apple want its users to enjoy.

However, the world isn't this simple. People like having choice - the iPod and iTunes shouldn't be mutually ( sp. ) inclusive. To tell people ( not you nagromme ) that they should either use the iPod or something else and stop complaining is arrogant ( and short sighted ).

Other music stores will catch up to iTMS, then what for Apple - license out Fairplay in an act of desparation?

Talking about video content - I wonder how long it is going to take for apple to offer full sized ( i.e., not iPod ) content available for download? At the moment its to encourage people to buy 5G iPods..



nagromme said:
I'll throw out a possibility for discussion here...

Maybe, just maybe, NOT all ways to "control your product" are equal. Maybe there are ways to "control your product" that do more harm than other ways.

Maybe the way Microsoft has "controlled their product" by using their Windows OS monopoly to break into OTHER realms is more objectionable than Apple "controlling their product" by keeping their music offerings together as one.

If you think what Apple has done here is really in the same league as Microsoft, and it bothers you just as much, that's a perfectly valid opinion and I have no objection to you holding it.

But there IS another opinion that's very valid: the opinion that there ARE important differences between what Microsoft has done and what Apple has done with music, and that Apple's success is based on quality, while Microsoft's is less so.

Now, that may change: Apple using their music success to lock other, better companies out of video, while offering mediocre video services themselves would be an example. (There ARE ways to grow iTunes into video without violating antitrust laws--it's not like Apple can't ever do video just because they are successful with audio. But there may also be ways that DO violate the law, and I hope Apple doesn't cross that line. That would be Microsoft-like.)
 
Stella said:
Some people like choice... its not black and white and wrong just to say 'ignorant or crazy'.<snip>

Not to get oversly semantic, but the poser did say that they were ignorant or crazy people, not that they were ignorant and crazy BECAUSE they used something other than iTunes.

Maybe they know a few insane and/or uninformed individuals. I know I do. :rolleyes:

David :cool:
 
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