Google Play Will Let Developers Use Alternative Billing Systems in South Korea, While Apple Has Yet to Make Changes

[sideshowuniqueuser]

The 11% fee is just opening up avenues for further anti-trust cases. Lawyers are busy on it as we speak, guaranteed. This has more to play out, and I can only see one end solution... side loading. Meanwhile, Apple, Goggle, et. al. will carry on milking this cash cow while it lasts.

Thus why Apple's stock price is virtually stagnant, even after the greatest, mind blowing, laptop and silicon releases in the history of humanity.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Legislation wants Apple to allow the use of third party payments, which is precisely what they will allow. They just won’t make it any cheaper for developers to do so.

That’s the Pyrrhic victory I am talking about here. You get what was agreed on paper, without any of benefits. As it stands, developers may well still end up paying the same amount to Apple, which means app pricing stays the same, which means the consumer remains indifferent between using iTunes and another payment option, and will likely stick with iTunes for the convenience and security.

I am surprised lawmakers didn’t see this coming.

it depends, nothign in the law states apple or gogle are allowed to take a cut from third party processign fees. you are referencing an american case with no legal consiquence outside the United states.

Most countries protects consumers and not customers unless the customer happens to be a consumer.

Developers are not consumers, but for-profit businesses and should have no more protection than Apple. Basically, between to commercial entities the main principle is : any thing goes.

and if these buisness practises is incovenient for consumers inderictly the governmetn alwasy stepps in. you talk like they are difrent intrests. why do you think companies can complain that contracts are unfair or harms the market etc?

 

[Abazigal]

But how could Apple charge a commission, when Apple doesn‘t know that a payment event happened? This is exactly why Apple wants all developers to use only Apples InApp payment. No control - no money. Simple as that.

How does the government determine how much tax you ought to pay?

The developer declares, and Apple verifies by way of external audits, would be my guess.

 

[bb9]

I wonder how Apple will be charging developers who chose to have alternative payments system? There is no such thing as rent free stay.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Developer fee = Apple's App Store revenue / # of developers = $80 billions / 1 million developers = $80 000 per developer.

Increased iPhone cost = Apple's App Store revenue / # of iPhones sold = $80 billions / 228 millions iPhones = $227

It's not really feasible to pay in such a way.

It's Apple who decides their pricing structure and how they want to make money like almost any business.

that makes no sense at all. you come with the assumption apple must make the exact same revenue as today. this is absolutely not the case. if this is to be belived untill apple proves otherwise. menaing of 80 billion 70, billion was pure profit giving them a healthy 80~% margins.

• Developer fee = Apple's App Store Cost/ # of developers = $10 billions / 2.8million developers = $3500 per developer.
• Increased iDevise cost = Apple's App Store costs/ # of iDevises sold = $10 billions / 228 millions iPhones+45 million iPads = $36

But wait there is more. of all apples revenue it's likely 2-4% is merchent+processing fees cutting this costs 10billion -1.6 3.2billion.

• Developer fee = Apple's App Store Cost/ # of developers = $6,8-8,4 billions / 2.8 million developers = $2.4-3.000 per developer. as every developer should obviouly pay the transaction fee in the transaction.
• ncreased iDevise cost = Apple's App Store costs/ # of iDevises sold = 6,8-8,4 billions / 228 millions iPhones+45 million iPads = $25-30

But wait there is even more as we havent even acounted for the VAT or sales tax apple pays for that every developer obviosly pays with their purchases. USA average sales tax is 6% and globaly its about 20%~ so lets meat in the middle at 10%. that means apple pays 12-14% in pure costs that varies on the sales numbers.
Of 80 billion 9.6-11.2 billion in sales TAx and processing fees.
80billion revenue. 64-70 billion

• 12-14% is card and sales fees Of 80 billion 9.6-11.2 billion in sales TAx and processing fees. that developers already pay.
• apple have 80-88% gross margins
• making apple app store running costs likely to be 1-8% of the revenue
• that is 800 million to 6 billion$ that needs to be devided.

so letss do the calculations wiht the most realistic numbers again.

• Developer fee = Apple's App Store Cost/ # of developers = $800million-6billion / 2.8 million developers-($99*1million developers fee) = $200-2300
• Increased iDevise cost = Apple's App Store costs/ # of iDevises sold = $800million-6billion / 228 millions iPhones+45 million iPads -($99*1million developers fee) = $2.5-22...

The cost of an iPhone just pays for getting the iPhone, the software installed on the device and some of the services. You are not paying for the App Store itself or all the development tools and API. And even if you were, Apple should be allowed to charge twice for the same thing from different parties or even the same party.

we are paying for all of it with hardware sales. why do you think iOS uppdates etc are free or Mac os x is free etc even tho nobody uses the Mac app store. it's all payed with hardware. if apple don't like it, they should raise the price.
And no apple should not be allowed to charge twice for the same thing.

Edit: number of developers are 2.8 million not 1 million

 

[Sophisticatednut]

How does the government determine how much tax you ought to pay?

The developer declares, and Apple verifies by way of external audits, would be my guess.

sure if apple can force an audit of millmions of developers.
and actualy the government knows how much tax you ought to pay because your employee declared it for you. why do you think the government can come after you with tax fraud if you declares the wrong numbers without having a cheat cheet

 

[Sophisticatednut]

that makes no sense at all. you come with the assumption apple must make the exact same revenue as today. this is absolutely not the case. if this is to be belived untill apple proves otherwise. menaing of 80 billion 70, billion was pure profit giving them a healthy 80~% margins.

• Developer fee = Apple's App Store Cost/ # of developers = $10 billions / 2.8million developers = $3500 per developer.
• Increased iDevise cost = Apple's App Store costs/ # of iDevises sold = $10 billions / 228 millions iPhones+45 million iPads = $36

But wait there is more. of all apples revenue it's likely 2-4% is merchent+processing fees cutting this costs 10billion -1.6 3.2billion.

• Developer fee = Apple's App Store Cost/ # of developers = $6,8-8,4 billions / 2.8 million developers = $2.4-3.000 per developer. as every developer should obviouly pay the transaction fee in the transaction.
• ncreased iDevise cost = Apple's App Store costs/ # of iDevises sold = 6,8-8,4 billions / 228 millions iPhones+45 million iPads = $25-30

But wait there is even more as we havent even acounted for the VAT or sales tax apple pays for that every developer obviosly pays with their purchases. USA average sales tax is 6% and globaly its about 20%~ so lets meat in the middle at 10%. that means apple pays 12-14% in pure costs that varies on the sales numbers.
Of 80 billion 9.6-11.2 billion in sales TAx and processing fees.
80billion revenue. 64-70 billion

• 12-14% is card and sales fees Of 80 billion 9.6-11.2 billion in sales TAx and processing fees. that developers already pay.
• apple have 80-88% gross margins
• making apple app store running costs likely to be 1-8% of the revenue
• that is 800 million to 6 billion$ that needs to be devided.

so letss do the calculations wiht the most realistic numbers again.

• Developer fee = Apple's App Store Cost/ # of developers = $800million-6billion / 2.8 million developers-($99*1million developers fee) = $200-2300
• Increased iDevise cost = Apple's App Store costs/ # of iDevises sold = $800million-6billion / 228 millions iPhones+45 million iPads -($99*1million developers fee) = $2.5-22...

we are paying for all of it with hardware sales. why do you think iOS uppdates etc are free or Mac os x is free etc even tho nobody uses the Mac app store. it's all payed with hardware. if apple don't like it, they should raise the price.
And no apple should not be allowed to charge twice for the same thing.

Edit: number of developers are 2.8 million not 1 million

even better. there are 200 billion downloads a year. and 80 billion/200 billion= 0.4$.
apple could just take a 40cent fee per download and bill them monthly or yearly.
or 800million-6billion/200billion downloads= 0.03-0.004$ for every free download. to cover costs unless the app have a store price

that makes everyone happy

 

[Abazigal]

sure if apple can force an audit of millmions of developers.
and actualy the government knows how much tax you ought to pay because your employee declared it for you. why do you think the government can come after you with tax fraud if you declares the wrong numbers without having a cheat cheet

Well, if I were Apple, I should already have a sensing of how much the small developers are earning by way of the small developer programme (the one which reduces the cut to 15% for those under 1 million). I may also close one eye to them because the cost of monitoring and enforcing this wouldn’t be worth the money collected from them.

Instead, go after the bigger developers first (who are mostly your freemium games). These are also the companies who are less likely to use a third party payment processor because iTunes is still more convenient, and convenience is what get people to spend money on gems and coins in the first place.

Rather than asking how it might be done, it’s probably safer to assume that Apple will already have considered such an eventuality and have a backup plan in place. Just like how I am sure Apple will have a plan B for if they are ever forced to open up the App Store or offer sideloading, but it doesn’t mean they go down without a fight either.

 

[H2SO4]

You are implying that Apple and Google broke the law before implementing their devices and stores in these countries. That is not the case. They followed the rules. These Countries are now moving the goal posts and want to change the rules in an unfair manner. Do all stores in South Korea need to have multiple payment methods or just Apple and Google. Its clear that the government is the one trying to mess around with the free market and not the other way around.

What I am saying, not implying, is that it's their country and they set the rules.
It is their prerogative to change those rules when they see fit.

 

[Altivec88]

Grabed this from Apples TOS
View attachment 1902747
how is governments changing the goal post? Apple have the exact same policy of moving the goal post whenever they wish.

The free market is not a thing. i dont know if you realise this but 99% of developed nations heavely regulate what a buisness can and cant do against customers. Companies being free to do whatever they want is exclusively an American sickness. Companies aren't people and don't have the freedoms granted to citizens.

I have no idea what you are getting at. Apple has not changed their store policy for over a decade so I'm not sure what goal post they moved. South Korea just implemented this law now solely to hamper two specific stores. Allowing a company to work a certain way for a decade and then flipping a switch saying you can't do that is called moving the goal post. So you showing me a standard legal clause that Apple hasn't acted on has no relevance. I am not even arguing that governments don't have right to change laws, They definitely do. And Apple has every right to follow them or exit that market. I've also never said that there are no market laws or regulation. What I said is they shouldn't interfere with the fair market. That means they shouldn't create unfairness by creating specific rules and targeting specific companies. I have no problem if stores need multiple payment providers but this needs to be true for all stores. If they want to make a rule that Apple needs to have multiple stores, then I expect the rule to be applied to all stores. That means I want to have an xbox game store on my playstation and a burger king kiosk in my local McDonalds.

The point of a free market is for the people to decide what they want by voting with their wallet. Apple entered the phone business late. They must have did something right to become this successful. If you don't like what Apple is selling then don't buy it. Clearly if there are enough people that share your wants, there is opportunity for another company to create a platform that everyone will switch to.

I am not American nor do I live in the US but your stereotype "an American sickness" is not appreciated. A free and fair market that allows companies to prosper and innovate is not a sickness. GROW UP!

 

[Altivec88]

What I am saying, not implying, is that it's their country and they set the rules.
It is their prerogative to change those rules when they see fit.

Okay. So who is telling you that they are not allowed to set the rules? All I said, is South Koreas new rule accomplishes nothing as is evident by Google still rightfully charging for the use of their services. Then I said governments shouldn't tamper with the free market.

Just like governments have the right to set those rules. If the rules become so draconian both Apple and Google have the right to leave that country. That government can then explain themselves to angry citizens why they tampered with something that didn't need tampering. I am just waiting for both Apple and Google to get together and pull the trigger on one of these countries to set an example. I don't know which one but I can see it coming.

 

[H2SO4]

Okay. So who is telling you that they are not allowed to set the rules? All I said, is South Koreas new rule accomplishes nothing as is evident by Google still rightfully charging for the use of their services. Then I said governments shouldn't tamper with the free market.

Just like governments have the right to set those rules. If the rules become so draconian both Apple and Google have the right to leave that country. That government can then explain themselves to angry citizens why they tampered with something that didn't need tampering. I am just waiting for both Apple and Google to get together and pull the trigger on one of these countries to set an example. I don't know which one but I can see it coming.

Apple and Google will do what is required if it makes them enough money.
They will very likely play off the word draconian against the word money for as long as it’s profitable.

Governments always tamper with free markets. It’s why the dollar is the currency of choice for a lot of commodities.
America are in a position to do it and I see/hear very few people arguing against it.
Sometimes they need to ‘tamper’ in order to keep things ‘fair’.
But what you see as fair isn’t necessarily how others do.

 

[KindJamz]

Arrogant for the South Korean government to think they can regulate the decisions of private American businesses.

Imagine if we cut them off from Google and Apple products, and better yet stopped protecting them from North Korea and China.

Imagine apple losing its entire lineup.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Okay. So who is telling you that they are not allowed to set the rules? All I said, is South Koreas new rule accomplishes nothing as is evident by Google still rightfully charging for the use of their services. Then I said governments shouldn't tamper with the free market.

Government should always tamper with it.

Just like governments have the right to set those rules. If the rules become so draconian both Apple and Google have the right to leave that country. That government can then explain themselves to angry citizens why they tampered with something that didn't need tampering. I am just waiting for both Apple and Google to get together and pull the trigger on one of these countries to set an example. I don't know which one but I can see it coming.

I hope they go bankrupt. Companies should never be allowed to except economic pressures to enforce their will because it benefits them. This is not america where corporations do as they wish.

I have no idea what you are getting at. Apple has not changed their store policy for over a decade so I'm not sure what goal post they moved.

It’s explicitly showing apple can change their rules at a will. And they do

South Korea just implemented this law now solely to hamper two specific stores. Allowing a company to work a certain way for a decade and then flipping a switch saying you can't do that is called moving the goal post. So you showing me a standard legal clause that Apple hasn't acted on has no relevance. I am not even arguing that governments don't have right to change laws, They definitely do.

What i showed is the government had a reason. This reason was apples and Google’s store practices are harming consumers and the market, they just did do it when they where smaller and not controlling a large part of the market. This isn’t out of the blue switch, government have warned and pushed for change untill legislation forces change when voluntary actions aren’t done.

And Apple has every right to follow them or exit that market. I've also never said that there are no market laws or regulation. What I said is they shouldn't interfere with the fair market. That means they shouldn't create unfairness by creating specific rules and targeting specific companies. I have no problem if stores need multiple payment providers but this needs to be true for all stores. If they want to make a rule that Apple needs to have multiple stores, then I expect the rule to be applied to all stores. That means I want to have an xbox game store on my playstation and a burger king kiosk in my local McDonalds.

The store is not explicitly for apple or google. They just happen to be some of the only ones NOT doing this. Xbox game store have multiple payment options, buy it on their stores, buy it on G2A, in brick and mortar stores, from developers directly etc etc. pay with cash or with card or mobile payment solutions.

You are free to ask for an Xbox store on the PlayStation, it will just not do anything as the game and software aren’t compatible and have nothing to do with difrent payment options.

The point of a free market is for the people to decide what they want by voting with their wallet. Apple entered the phone business late. They must have did something right to become this successful. If you don't like what Apple is selling then don't buy it. Clearly if there are enough people that share your wants, there is opportunity for another company to create a platform that everyone will switch to.

This is how we get AT&T monopoly, standard oil etc. when apple entered the market we had diverse payment options. Now that apple and google dominates it we only have one option with no competition allowed. If developers where allowed to sell their apps outside of the store( and still be signed as complying with store guidelines. It would allow fare competition as apple would only take a fee from purchase made on the store. But get nothing if an app code is sold on Amazon, or on a card in your local Walmart etc

I am not American nor do I live in the US but your stereotype "an American sickness" is not appreciated. A free and fair market that allows companies to prosper and innovate is not a sickness. GROW UP!

You might not be an American but you are spreading their sickness. Markets should be free, but not so free to exploit the market and customers unfairly.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Okay. So who is telling you that they are not allowed to set the rules? All I said, is South Koreas new rule accomplishes nothing as is evident by Google still rightfully charging for the use of their services. Then I said governments shouldn't tamper with the free market.

Just like governments have the right to set those rules. If the rules become so draconian both Apple and Google have the right to leave that country. That government can then explain themselves to angry citizens why they tampered with something that didn't need tampering. I am just waiting for both Apple and Google to get together and pull the trigger on one of these countries to set an example. I don't know which one but I can see it coming.

We will see. It will likely be struck down by the courts as still breaking the law. What google have done is test the waters with a small sacrifice in case it’s good enough instead of doing like apple and do nothing

 

[I7guy]

[....]

You might not be an American but you are spreading their sickness. Markets should be free, but not so free to exploit the market and customers unfairly.

Markets where life, limb and finances are on the line should be regulated. Other than that, consumers should be free to vote with their dollars. You are for government regulating everything, including our existence, a philosophy I heartily disagree with.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Considering how blurry such lines can be I would say yes. As companies are 100% never in my interests and will exploit every loophole they can.

What market isn’t covered by life lim and finances?

I’m not for government regulating our lives but companies are not and should not be free.

Governments job is to guarantee your rights, without it it’s just fancy words on a paper.

 

[mrochester]

We will see. It will likely be struck down by the courts as still breaking the law. What google have done is test the waters with a small sacrifice in case it’s good enough instead of doing like apple and do nothing

I’m now confused. What % cut will be legal for google to charge?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I’m now confused. What % cut will be legal for google to charge?

0% on out of store purchases such as IAP when I already own the app.

Any percent on store purchases or those willing to use googles payment system.

 

[freedomlinux]

Arrogant for the South Korean government to think they can regulate the decisions of private American businesses.

hahahaha. Arrogant? For a country to have ... laws?

It makes no difference that Apple is an "American" business - they choose to subject themselves to South Korean law for the business that happens in South Korea. The same way that Samsung must comply with US law for the business they do in the US.

 

[mrochester]

0% on out of store purchases such as IAP when I already own the app.

Any percent on store purchases or those willing to use googles payment system.

So how does google get paid for services rendered if they can’t take a cut of IAPs?

 

[I7guy]

hahahaha. Arrogant? For a country to have ... laws?

It makes no difference that Apple is an "American" business - they choose to subject themselves to South Korean law for the business that happens in South Korea. The same way that Samsung must comply with US law for the business they do in the US.

Apple did comply with the laws in 2015, in the same way Samsung has complied with US laws on the books at the time they started doing business in the US.

 

[Altivec88]

Government should always tamper with it.

I hope they go bankrupt. Companies should never be allowed to except economic pressures to enforce their will because it benefits them. This is not america where corporations do as they wish.


It’s explicitly showing apple can change their rules at a will. And they do

What i showed is the government had a reason. This reason was apples and Google’s store practices are harming consumers and the market, they just did do it when they where smaller and not controlling a large part of the market. This isn’t out of the blue switch, government have warned and pushed for change untill legislation forces change when voluntary actions aren’t done.

The store is not explicitly for apple or google. They just happen to be some of the only ones NOT doing this. Xbox game store have multiple payment options, buy it on their stores, buy it on G2A, in brick and mortar stores, from developers directly etc etc. pay with cash or with card or mobile payment solutions.

You are free to ask for an Xbox store on the PlayStation, it will just not do anything as the game and software aren’t compatible and have nothing to do with difrent payment options.

This is how we get AT&T monopoly, standard oil etc. when apple entered the market we had diverse payment options. Now that apple and google dominates it we only have one option with no competition allowed. If developers where allowed to sell their apps outside of the store( and still be signed as complying with store guidelines. It would allow fare competition as apple would only take a fee from purchase made on the store. But get nothing if an app code is sold on Amazon, or on a card in your local Walmart etc

You might not be an American but you are spreading their sickness. Markets should be free, but not so free to exploit the market and customers unfairly.

One day you'll learn that governments don't care about you. All they care about is money and power. If you feel that you need the government to baby sit you on every aspect of your daily life, good for you. I can take care of myself when it comes to buying a phone. I guess we are different that way. I hope you find the protection you need from your government.

Apple and Google are not harming consumers. That's a lie based on a few developers and governments for the purpose of collecting more money. Greed is all it is. You happen to believe this narrative but that doesn't make it so. How has Apple and google harmed you? Why haven't you moved on to something else if you are so harmed. Didn't Samsung release phones with Tizen OS for South Koreans.

You hope they both go bankrupt but here you are on an Apple site caring about it. Since you hate "American sickening companies" why do you buy their products. It just ends up making you look like a hypocrite. If everyone in South Korea feels the same as you, Apple and Google would not exist there. Clearly Apple and Google did some things right.

You are also free to buy Apple gift cards almost anywhere using whatever payment method you want. If Microsoft, Epic and countless more are allowed to open up their own store on Playstation where no money goes to Sony, they will definitely do so and port their games over. Yes great for consumers for the current iteration but why in the world would any company invest in making a platform when all that's going to happen is other companies override you and prevent you from making any money. In the long run this kills innovation and any incentive to make new products which is bad for consumers.

Just because you do not agree with someone, doesn't make them sick, otherwise I could say the same thing about your views. The point of a company is to create something people want and make money at it. This is not exclusive to American companies. If you think South Korea's Samsung morals are pure at heart (lol, just read up on their history), then stick with them. Pinning your rant on America is racist. I thought you would pick up on that from my last response but you double downed on your racist comment so there is no excuse for you.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

So how does google get paid for services rendered if they can’t take a cut of IAPs?

They take a developers fee to make apps and/or take a commission if they use google servers after the download or fee etc.

If VALVE can allow their publishers to create steam keys and sell them anywhere and pay valve 0%, I think apple can do it as well

 

[I7guy]

They take a developers fee to make apps and/or take a commission if they use google servers after the download or fee etc.

If VALVE can allow their publishers to create steam keys and sell them anywhere and pay valve 0%, I think apple can do it as well

It’s magnanimous of you giving away money that is not yours.