Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

rtomyj

macrumors 6502a
Sep 3, 2012
812
753
Your post is largely speculation as you dont know the vast mayority of deals, why they did it, what revenue it generated / might generate,...

And its a simple fact that even wih what you summed up, google stock is outperforming apple's several times.

----------


The only joke is that you think to know all those patents and what they are worth not just now but the revenue they might generate from now.


No it doesnt perhaps you should actually read those aricles?
But feel free to be as ignorant as you wish.

Not necessarily. They tried using the patents against Microsoft and it failed. They received far less what they were aiming for (they overvalued the patents).

Anywho, Wall Street and Apple do not go well together. They tell people to not buy into Apple essentially for the same reason they tell people to buy into Google. They both met their guidance, but Apple will flatline with their current merchandise (of course, only natural) however they fail to see that Google will too. Since their only relevant revenue is from ads once that flatlines what next? Apple still has other things they can make money off, they can release new products(because that's what they do) but the same cannot be said for Goog. They have Glass and the car coming which again will face legal issues and with glass a very very small niche market.
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
Not necessarily. They tried using the patents against Microsoft and it failed. They received far less what they were aiming for (they overvalued the patents).

right, but what he was saying is that, Patents are a revenue generating thing. They licence them out and earn revenues based on that type of transactions, Not necessarily suing or selling.

That revenue, or perceived future revenue generation is often accounted in the current book value as a section on the financial statements called "good will"
 

Dmunjal

macrumors 68000
Jun 20, 2010
1,533
1,542
Not necessarily. They tried using the patents against Microsoft and it failed. They received far less what they were aiming for (they overvalued the patents).

Anywho, Wall Street and Apple do not go well together. They tell people to not buy into Apple essentially for the same reason they tell people to buy into Google. They both met their guidance, but Apple will flatline with their current merchandise (of course, only natural) however they fail to see that Google will too. Since their only relevant revenue is from ads once that flatlines what next? Apple still has other things they can make money off, they can release new products(because that's what they do) but the same cannot be said for Goog. They have Glass and the car coming which again will face legal issues and with glass a very very small niche market.

Do you forget that Apple was Wall Street's darling for over 10 years as it went from $5B to $500B valuation?
It's just the law of large numbers. It happens when you get too big that growth slows down.
 

slattery69

macrumors regular
Jun 16, 2009
194
11
Paid Shill
But those "handful" of patents were the holy grail for Motogoogle's patent strategy. And they turned out to be worth a couple million, not four billion as Motogoogle ascertained in their lawsuit against Microsoft.


got any evidence that those handful of patents were the "holy grail" . Motorola were suing before google even bought them.
Im sure out of 17000 these are not the crown jewels given that motorola were involved in the invention of the mobile phone
 

rtomyj

macrumors 6502a
Sep 3, 2012
812
753
Do you forget that Apple was Wall Street's darling for over 10 years as it went from $5B to $500B valuation?
It's just the law of large numbers. It happens when you get too big that growth slows down.

No I get it. All I'm pointing out is that the guy a while back claiming that this is the downfall of google isn't too far off. Google has to do something to stay the darling.

----------

right, but what he was saying is that, Patents are a revenue generating thing. They licence them out and earn revenues based on that type of transactions, Not necessarily suing or selling.

That revenue, or perceived future revenue generation is often accounted in the current book value as a section on the financial statements called "good will"

Not really. If no OEMs besides Andorid ones want them they are useless ($ wise)
 

Thalesian

macrumors member
May 12, 2009
73
15
Albuquerque, NM
Lol so Apple sells 52 million iPhones (more than any quarter in their history), pockets $13 billion and their stock plummets.

Meanwhile, Google says "oops, we wasted $12.5B on Moto - here Lenovo takes this off our hands for a $9.5B loss" and their stock is up.

What....that....what?

----------



Its a shame too - although Samsung took a hit last quarter. With the news they'll be scaling back their marketing efforts, I wonder if 2014 is the year we see another OEM step up to play with Apple and Samsung.

Maybe someone else will break double digits?

This is happening to my company, my division made 36% more relative to last year, and we just had our travel and budget massively hit, my boss was relieved of most of his duties, and our team has been criticized by management. Both margin and volume were up. This is my first time in the 'real world', and from what I can tell, success is punished.

People don't think long term, and they don't think empirically. Actual dollars and cents don't matter as subjective perception and short-term decisions. The Free Market is nearsighted. Folks like Jobs knew how to think about the future, unfortunately most are not like him.
 

Judas1

macrumors 6502a
Aug 4, 2011
794
42
This is happening to my company, my division made 36% more relative to last year, and we just had our travel and budget massively hit, my boss was relieved of most of his duties, and our team has been criticized by management. Both margin and volume were up. This is my first time in the 'real world', and from what I can tell, success is punished.

People don't think long term, and they don't think empirically. Actual dollars and cents don't matter as subjective perception and short-term decisions. The Free Market is nearsighted. Folks like Jobs knew how to think about the future, unfortunately most are not like him.
You seriously think that's the issue? You really think they just want to punish success? Maybe its just that whats important for management is something separate from what your department is doing. Sounds like you can only see from your division's perspective, which begs the question, how do you tell what is shortsighted and what isn't?
 

Thalesian

macrumors member
May 12, 2009
73
15
Albuquerque, NM
You seriously think that's the issue? You really think they just want to punish success? Maybe its just that whats important for management is something separate from what your department is doing. Sounds like you can only see from your division's perspective, which begs the question, how do you tell what is shortsighted and what isn't?

Very fair point, it all hit this morning, so still processing the news. But I did notice a similarity in the previous commenter's note that Google's stock was up after admitting billion+ mistake, and Apple's was down despite high profits.

The bigger point (my whining aside) is that we have a hard time deciphering meaningful trends from data that contains mostly dice rolls. To borrow book titles, we are fooled by randomness and can't tell the signal from the noise. Apple being down or Google being up for the past few weeks has very little predictive power over the future of either company. A company that pats itself on the back or goes into a panic over these kinds of changes is ceding power to random stock fluctuations.

TL;DR Google made a bad choice with the Motorola buying and selling, but being rewarded by higher stock despite these billion dollar errors is probably due more to randomness than it is to Google's choices.
 

Retired Cat

macrumors 65816
Jun 12, 2013
1,210
380
Not true, their android phones and tablets are awful. IN contrast many would argue the Moto X is the best executed android phone of 2013.


Lenovo might just leave Moto to operate as is, but seeing as Moto Mobility has been losing money I suspect that they will change things drastically. I'm not feeling a whole lot of confidence.
 

blackhand1001

macrumors 68030
Jan 6, 2009
2,599
33
Lenovo might just leave Moto to operate as is, but seeing as Moto Mobility has been losing money I suspect that they will change things drastically. I'm not feeling a whole lot of confidence.

Motorolas current issue isn't the product. Its marketing and brand recognition. The current lineup rates much higher in consumer satisfaction than both samsung and Apple by a pretty big margin. Its just that most people usually pick Samsung or Apple.
 

ChrisNM

macrumors regular
Mar 23, 2010
108
39
Laughing All The Way To The Bank

I love all these posts that say "If I was a Google shareholder, I would be pissed"

Well, I am a Google shareholder, and I am quite happy. Why? Because the stock price went up!

Wall Street rewarded Google for dumping something that was proving to be a distraction. The street apparently valued that more than the loss Google took.
 

k995

macrumors 6502a
Jan 23, 2010
933
173
And you have what to back that up? Whatever, if you like they only had a false monopoly. I don't care anymore.
Ah so you have zero proof, I figured as much. Dont bring it up then if you made it up.


That's what I've said. I don't know why you want to disagree with me on this point. Sure they want your info, but only to sell more ads. They aren't the NSA. The info is only a means to an end to make the ads more relevant and more valuable to advertisers.
You still dont get their model, they need info on you thats why it doenst matter they barely make profit on nexus devices.



There are dozens of flavors of Android, without being more specific that sentence means nearly nothing. Nexus is about unchanged vanilla Android and it was only somewhat successful in promoting it.
Doesnt really matter from the vast mayority google gets its data its model is based on. Win for google


Except for Chinese Baidu which is a special case, Google with 68.1% is 10 times the size of Yahoo 6.4% and Bing 5.6%. More than enough to be a monopoly
Ah you dont understand what a monopoly is.

Google cant demand what it want it cant force people, THAT is a monopoly. MS had it trough retail stores even if its market share was 80-90% But if you went to a shop 95-100% it was windows.


That's why they need to keep control over Android, which is hard since it's based on free software and can be forked by anyone. Amazons Fire OS is loosely based on Android, but stripped from everything resembling a Google service. Amazon has no interest in feeding information to Google, they have their own services to promote. Google only wins, when unchanged vanilla Android wins and that isn't so sure.
Again wrong, its the google services that are important. And google just had a deal with samsung to include more google and less samsung . In exchange for no more nexus line.

Again win for google model.
 

darkgoob

macrumors 6502
Oct 16, 2008
315
305
Great, now the Chinese own the only cell phone company that makes phones in the USA. If you work for Moto Mobility's factory in the USA, I'd start applying for other jobs.

Best reason yet to hate Google.
 

Judas1

macrumors 6502a
Aug 4, 2011
794
42
Very fair point, it all hit this morning, so still processing the news. But I did notice a similarity in the previous commenter's note that Google's stock was up after admitting billion+ mistake, and Apple's was down despite high profits.

The bigger point (my whining aside) is that we have a hard time deciphering meaningful trends from data that contains mostly dice rolls. To borrow book titles, we are fooled by randomness and can't tell the signal from the noise. Apple being down or Google being up for the past few weeks has very little predictive power over the future of either company. A company that pats itself on the back or goes into a panic over these kinds of changes is ceding power to random stock fluctuations.

TL;DR Google made a bad choice with the Motorola buying and selling, but being rewarded by higher stock despite these billion dollar errors is probably due more to randomness than it is to Google's choices.
I know this is an Apple site, but its not about Apple vs Google. Maybe Google overpaid for Motorola 2 yrs ago. But the deal they got now is a good deal. Thats why their stocks went up. As for Apple, their valuation was always based on them having a steady growth rate. So of course, them getting the highest revenue ever doesn't mean anything. Their growth is still lower than expected, and over the years, with everybody jumping on the Apple stocks bandwagon, their stocks are overpriced.
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
Very fair point, it all hit this morning, so still processing the news. But I did notice a similarity in the previous commenter's note that Google's stock was up after admitting billion+ mistake, and Apple's was down despite high profits.

And exactly how admitted that?
 

Zemzil

macrumors member
May 10, 2013
49
0
Geneva, Swiss
Interesting studies which could explain why Google raise the tone against Samsung and manufacturer bloatware, and why Lenovo could be a diplomatic partner to deal with China censorship.

https://www.abiresearch.com/press/q4-2013-smartphone-os-results-is-google-losing-con

Between Q3 and Q4 2013, the "Google platform" Android would have thus experienced only a small 12% growth, the lowest figure since 3 years over the period.

And during Q4 2014, AOSP Android (without Google services) have seen their share grow by 137% while Android "Google platform" version has experienced it as a 29% gain.
 
Last edited:

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,265
Berlin, Berlin
Ah so you have zero proof, I figured as much. Dont bring it up then if you made it up.
What kind of "proof" do you expect? Do you want him to make a polygraph test about his true motivations behind the donations to his foundation? You know that the results of these so-called lie detectors aren't trustworthy either. So we will never know for sure, if you really don't understand the limits of provability of personal intentions or if you are just trolling me?
You still dont get their model, they need info on you that's why it doesn't matter they barely make profit on nexus devices.
And you don't get, what it needs for their model to work. Despite them no one else want's them to get all the info. Not the users, not the carriers and not the phone makers, who decide which services are preinstalled on all phones. Only if you are also successful as a hardware maker, you really have control about what software the customer gets to see.
Ah you dont understand what a monopoly is. Google can't demand what it wants it can't force people, THAT is a monopoly.
Do you think all those websites give them billions of dollars deliberately? No they need to pay Google, because (outside of China) with less then a tenth of market share, Yahoo really isn't an alternative.
MS had it trough retail stores even if its market share was 80-90%. But if you went to a shop 95-100% of it was windows.
And so is web traffic. Nearly every web search starts with a query to Google. Even if people know exactly the address of the site they want to go, the unified address and search bar makes them asking Google first. And no company other than Google can redirect the whole web traffic based on sponsored links.
Again wrong, its the google services that are important. And google just had a deal with samsung to include more google and less samsung. In exchange for no more nexus line.
Google just sold their complete manufacturing capabilities. And also before that the Nexus line never was an obstacle to Samsungs market success. Samsung simply doesn't need Google nearly as much as Google needs Samsung or Apple for that matter.

Google Could Pay Apple $1 Billion Next Year To Remain Default Search Engine On iOS
„According to a report from Morgan Stanley, Google could pay more than $1 billion in 2014 to remain the default search engine on iOS. In 2009, Google paid only $82 million for the privilege.“

That's a 12-times increase! Don't you see, who is the weak part in this relationship? Google needs to beg and bribe hardware makers to let their services on the phone. And still Microsoft could just write an even bigger cheque and make Bing! the default search on all Apple devices. From one contract to another Google could lose almost half of mobile search. That's a very vulnerable business position.

Again win for google model.
If you declare victory only because Samsung hasn't turned against them (yet), than conceding defeat in the hardware market, is a big win for Google. :D

I wonder why Microsoft bought Nokia, if the true success model in the mobile market evolves around not making any mobile devices? Stupid me, who thought Microsofts problem was that their phones did not sell. Now I see they should just give away their software for free and open to change. And just bribe everybody to keep their services as default. And the reason Microsoft couldn't simply do what Google does, clearly isn't evidence that Google has a monopoly on search-based advertising.
 

k995

macrumors 6502a
Jan 23, 2010
933
173
What kind of "proof" do you expect? Do you want him to make a polygraph test about his true motivations behind the donations to his foundation? You know that the results of these so-called lie detectors aren't trustworthy either. So we will never know for sure, if you really don't understand the limits of provability of personal intentions or if you are just trolling me?
Are you for real? What I expect for proof is where YOU gor that info.

Article, interview whatever to show you didnt make that up yourself.

Its quite clear you dont have that and that whole bit was made up.




And you don't get, what it needs for their model to work. Despite them no one else want's them to get all the info. Not the users, not the carriers and not the phone makers, who decide which services are preinstalled on all phones. Only if you are also successful as a hardware maker, you really have control about what software the customer gets to see.
Thats simply nut true, microsoft never made a PC . Google just advanced that bussines model further.

Again google just made a deal with samsung more google less nexus hardware.
You dont need to control the hardware to control the software . If you make it profitable for others to flock to your model, they will coma and its that what google did.



Do you think all those websites give them billions of dollars deliberately? No they need to pay Google, because (outside of China) with less then a tenth of market share, Yahoo really isn't an alternative.
Absolute BS? plenty of other advertisers companies can go to.

Google does not have a monopoly, google cannot enforce anything because they are dozens of others ready to take their place.


Google just sold their complete manufacturing capabilities. And also before that the Nexus line never was an obstacle to Samsungs market success. Samsung simply doesn't need Google nearly as much as Google needs Samsung or Apple for that matter.

They didn sell anything, you dont seem to know a lot. Google simply told samsung they are discontinuing the line. Nexus hardware was actually samsung, lg and asus hardware google bought and rebranded.


If any nexus increased android market share (first couple of nexus') and created a good base of companies (propping up asus and LG as competitors to samsung) in that sense it gave google everything it needed: high marketshare AND competition within android to keep prices low.

Google Could Pay Apple $1 Billion Next Year To Remain Default Search Engine On iOS
„According to a report from Morgan Stanley, Google could pay more than $1 billion in 2014 to remain the default search engine on iOS. In 2009, Google paid only $82 million for the privilege.“

That's a 12-times increase! Don't you see, who is the weak part in this relationship? Google needs to beg and bribe hardware makers to let their services on the phone. And still Microsoft could just write an even bigger cheque and make Bing! the default search on all Apple devices. From one contract to another Google could lose almost half of mobile search. That's a very vulnerable business position.

ANd google well get even more profits from that, if anything it just shows how badly apple underestimated google in 2009 .

Every point android grows ios get less and less important for google.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/26/ka...s-but-leader-samsung-now-under-real-pressure/

"Android continues to be the most popular mobile platform, with its share of smartphone sales climbing in every major market in Q4 2013, now accounting for 69.5% of all sales across 12 key markets versus 23.7% for number-two Apple, "

"Elsewhere, although Apple has seen overall declines — losing a proportion of sales in each of the 12 big markets tracked by Kantar, in fact (the trend for some time now) "


If you declare victory only because Samsung hasn't turned against them (yet), than conceding defeat in the hardware market, is a big win for Google. :D
Which just shows you still dont understandd google's model.

They never intented to compete on hardware level with samsung lg or asus nexus was to push android acceptance by offering from low end to high end affordable devices. Once android is installed with people google reaps the benefits.


I wonder why Microsoft bought Nokia, if the true success model in the mobile market evolves around not making any mobile devices? Stupid me, who thought Microsofts problem was that their phones did not sell. Now I see they should just give away their software for free and open to change. And just bribe everybody to keep their services as default. And the reason Microsoft couldn't simply do what Google does, clearly isn't evidence that Google has a monopoly on search-based advertising.

MS doesnt license its OS. You do understand the difference between android and windows mobile? Sorry but perhaps you should read some more before making comments?

MS TRIED to emulate the android/google model and failed. Market share remained couple of % so they switched and bought nokia and will now copy apple model.
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,265
Berlin, Berlin
Are you for real? What I expect for proof is where YOU gor that info. Article, interview whatever to show you didnt make that up yourself.
You have a funny idea for what you consider to be a proof. But if you just want another source, there you have it:

The Microsoft Story

Its quite clear you dont have that and that whole bit was made up.
It's quite clear you don't understand how a proof works. Only because David Banks (Wallstreet Journal) says something, it doesn't make it any more true, than when I'm the only one saying it.
Every point android grows ios get less and less important for google.
Google doesn't have any more control about what is the default search on Android, than it has on iOS. The hardware maker is in control and can sell this privilege to the highest bidder.
MS doesn't license its OS.
Simply False.
MS TRIED to emulate the android/google model and failed. Market share remained couple of % so they switched and bought nokia and will now copy apple model.
As a phone maker you have to buy a ~$15 license per device to use Microsofts software on your hardware. Microsoft did not try to copy the Android for free model, but they might so in the future.

Why Microsoft might give Windows RT and Windows Phone away for free
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,788
10,916
ANd google well get even more profits from that, if anything it just shows how badly apple underestimated google in 2009 .

How does that follow? Unless you think that mobile advertising hasn't grown in the last four years.

Every point android grows ios get less and less important for google.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/26/ka...s-but-leader-samsung-now-under-real-pressure/

"Android continues to be the most popular mobile platform, with its share of smartphone sales climbing in every major market in Q4 2013, now accounting for 69.5% of all sales across 12 key markets versus 23.7% for number-two Apple, "

"Elsewhere, although Apple has seen overall declines — losing a proportion of sales in each of the 12 big markets tracked by Kantar, in fact (the trend for some time now) "

One third of those Android devices are forked AOSP without Google services. And most of the growth in "Android" was in these non-Google devices.

https://www.abiresearch.com/press/q4-2013-smartphone-os-results-is-google-losing-con

MS doesnt license its OS.

Yes, it does.

http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/phones

HTC
Samsung
Huawei
 

k995

macrumors 6502a
Jan 23, 2010
933
173
You have a funny idea for what you consider to be a proof. But if you just want another source, there you have it:

The Microsoft Story
And what minute? Not going to watch that full in german .


It's quite clear you don't understand how a proof works. Only because David Banks (Wallstreet Journal) says something, it doesn't make it any more true, than when I'm the only one saying it.

Again what minute and what was said?


Google doesn't have any more control about what is the default search on Android, than it has on iOS. The hardware maker is in control and can sell this privilege to the highest bidder.

And are there android mayor brands that dont use google as the default search engine?

Are there who dont ask for a google mail etc... ?

Sure but limited vast mayority uses google.

Simply False.
As a phone maker you have to buy a ~$15 license per device to use Microsofts software on your hardware. Microsoft did not try to copy the Android for free model, but they might so in the future.
MS tried to copy the desktop windows model and failed market share remained low then they tried the android model and failed again now they try to apple model. But still the windows phone now its virtually exclusive for nokia/MS .

Different models so you comparison was BS.



Emulating the android model of course, who would use winfows phone OS as MS has its own hardware and can undercut your devices?



trying to sideline the discussion wont change anything. Google's model is NOT selling hardware and is NOT selling its OS or other services it offers to users.

Google's model is based on gathering info and selling that. The more marketshare its apps/OS get the better for google. And with a current worldwide marketshare off 70% and its OS for laptops taking off

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2428789,00.asp

ANd its protection for these with patents

And with deals to ensure usage like with samsung.

No this deal wast bad for google even if it costed them money.

----------

How does that follow? Unless you think that mobile advertising hasn't grown in the last four years.
It hasnt grown a thousand fold. Apple didnt find it important at the time and google benefited.


One third of those Android devices are forked AOSP without Google services. And most of the growth in "Android" was in these non-Google devices.

https://www.abiresearch.com/press/q4-2013-smartphone-os-results-is-google-losing-con
Doesnt really matter. Growth is worldwide

ANd its not really true:

http://bgr.com/2013/12/13/google-android-china-analysis/

"The Information reports that Android has become Google’s unofficial “backdoor” to Chinese consumers who are buying up low-cost handsets from small-name vendors such as Xiaomi and Coolpad. This has essentially opened up a new channel to Google services for hundreds of millions of Chinese smartphone and tablet owners, all without Google making any significant investments within the country.

Of course, not every Android handset sold in China comes preloaded with Google’s major revenue-driving applications so it’s no lock that the proliferation of Android devices is a de facto boon for Google. Even so, sources at Google tell The Information that “there will be more Android device owners using Google services such as Web search, Gmail and Google Maps in mainland China than in the U.S. within the next year or two,” which means that Google expects more than 100 million Chinese users to use Google services through their Android devices next year."





What I meant to say was that MS doesnt license like android, it sells , therefor the comparison is not correct .
 

sixrom

macrumors 6502a
Nov 13, 2013
709
1
I still maintain it's a very smart move for Google

What others say:

" It's a great reshuffling that will probably benefit consumers quite a bit.

Google's a better Google.
Lenovo's a bigger Lenovo.

And Motorola Mobility probably gets to keep being Motorola Mobility."


http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...s_the_mobile_world?taxonomyId=15&pageNumber=2


Time for Apple to step up it's game. Sitting around fat and happy while collecting profits off the iPhone and it's iOS offspring won't last forever.
 

Dave.UK

macrumors 65816
Sep 24, 2012
1,286
481
Kent, UK
Great, now the Chinese own the only cell phone company that makes phones in the USA. If you work for Moto Mobility's factory in the USA, I'd start applying for other jobs.

Best reason yet to hate Google.

So you have no problem with Apple, an American company, manufacturing their phones outside of the USA?

:rolleyes:
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.