GPS thread [split from Review sticky]

[MisterEd]

Some guys seem to be getting very confused about assisted GPS here... I'll try and put it simply...

1. Device uses cell tower triangulation to give a rough area of the location
2. This then tells the device which sattelites it should look for, according to where it is(this is where basic gps takes longer, as it just searches for the best sattelites)
3. The device then locks on to the appropriate sattelites, much faster than it would without A-GPS

It's a sort of narrowing down process, from a rough area, then to an exact pinpoint.

Ed

 

[Gix1k]

Ok...Ed, so what good is this feature..? Why again do I care the phone can tell me where I am....I obviously know where I am...I took the phone there. I see the benefit if I am hurt and dying and dialed 911 and cant explain where I am. If for whatever reason I am lost....I need something to tell me how to get where I need to be.....verses show me exactly where I am lost.

 

[t0mat0]

Ok...Ed, so what good is this feature..? Why again do I care the phone can tell me where I am....I obviously know where I am...I took the phone there. I see the benefit if I am hurt and dying and dialed 911 and cant explain where I am. If for whatever reason I am lost....I need something to tell me how to get where I need to be.....verses show me exactly where I am lost.

If your phone knows where you are, it can use the information of knowing what else is around you?
Want any sort of shop? It'll find one for you - Location Based search.
Looking for a friend to meet up for for a drink, but don't want to call around? See who's in town.
etc.

 

[zacman]

I've got a question about GPS:

A German website today reported that Apple doesn't allow developers to develop real time navigation software for the iPhone 3G. According to the website Apple told them that the GPS antenna ibuilt in isn't good enough for that (not strong enough or so). Is it true - is it really crippled?

 

[Type121]

I've got a question about GPS:

A German website today reported that Apple doesn't allow developers to develop real time navigation software for the iPhone 3G. According to the website Apple told them that the GPS antenna ibuilt in isn't good enough for that (not strong enough or so). Is it true - is it really crippled?

No.

TomTom supposedly already has an app under development and there's a poster on this site from TeleNav that says they'll have something soon.

It's the Google Maps data that prohibits turn-by-turn directions as they haven't paid the licensing fee to provide that info.

The antenna claim is bizarre. Plenty of smaller devices work just fine.

 

[Mike2128]

Just to preface, I never had a problem with iPhone 1 Google Maps w/o GPS. First time I ran Locate Me with the new iPhone pinpointed me smack dab in the middle of Atlanta ... while I live just outside of Boston. Woops.

 

[gkarris]

My friend wants to use it for hiking if third parties come out with Topo Map software - so it's possible to use it when there's no cell coverage?

 

[senorFunkyPants]

Some guys seem to be getting very confused about assisted GPS here... I'll try and put it simply...

1. Device uses cell tower triangulation to give a rough area of the location
2. This then tells the device which sattelites it should look for, according to where it is(this is where basic gps takes longer, as it just searches for the best sattelites)

Really?...I would be totally suprised if the iphone GPS chip did anything other than download the timing info from every satelite it could receive from.

3. The device then locks on to the appropriate sattelites, much faster than it would without A-GPS

It's a sort of narrowing down process, from a rough area, then to an exact pinpoint.

Ed

I would have thought the principle benefit of taking approx positioning by cell tower location would be to assist the proper GPS chip when satelite line of sight was lost due to high buildings, tunnels, bad weather etc where normal GPS software is restricted to extrapalating your position based on your speed and the road you are on.

 

[zacman]

TomTom supposedly already has an app under development and there's a poster on this site from TeleNav that says they'll have something soon.

It seems the iphone SDK license has been changed right after TomTom's announcement. Under section 3.3.7 it now says: "applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; (...)"

See http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/06/11/iphone.sdk..gps.nav/

 

[t0mat0]

It seems the iphone SDK license has been changed right after TomTom's announcement. Under section 3.3.7 it now says: "applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; (...)"

See http://www.electronista.com/articles/08/06/11/iphone.sdk..gps.nav/

Old news - there's been developments since the June 11th news.

 

[zacman]

Old news - there's been developments since the June 11th news.

It's still in the latest SDK licence though.

 

[spinstorm]

They don't have to be on appstore - could well be on a jailbroken version of the new iPhone!

 

[BobF4321]

Route recalculation?

What happens when you leave the route that Google Maps has calculated for you? Does it automatically calculate a new route to the destination? This is one of the TomTom features that I really like. Currently I'm using a Palm TX running TomTom with a bluetooth GPS receiver, and it's a great combination, but the iPhone will be able to replace the Palm if it can do this.

 

[zacman]

They don't have to be on appstore - could well be on a jailbroken version of the new iPhone!

Let's hope so (as it'd be some cheap solution for biking, geocaching,...).

I was just puzzled about the antenna claim. After the crippling of the bluetooth protocol everything seems possible

Let's wait and hope the best!

 

[kdarling]

1. Device uses cell tower triangulation to give a rough area of the location
2. This then tells the device which sattelites it should look for, according to where it is(this is where basic gps takes longer, as it just searches for the best sattelites)
3. The device then locks on to the appropriate sattelites, much faster than it would without A-GPS

Carrier-based tower triangulation is a last resort if GPS doesn't work, and is only usable by apps that lease the carrier's LBS facilities... something that almost certainly isn't happening here.

The iPhone first tries to locate itself using GPS or A-GPS. A-GPS contacts an assistance server to get information on what satellites are visible for the cell the phone is using, and what their exact timing and orbits are (this info changes every few hours).

If it can't get a GPS lock, it falls back on the usual iPhone WiFi or Cell Id.

 

[bobbba]

Just to clarify come info from Pogue:
He made it clear his infor came regarding weak GPS from the iPhone product
manager, Bob Borchers.

He tried the GPS feature in NY, in CT, and on the highways. He apparently never did get it to work right. (Mossberg didn't even try using it in a car).

"The new iPhone has true G.P.S. now, too, in addition to the fake G.P.S. of its predecessor ‹ an ingenious system that shows your location on a
map by analyzing nearby cellphone towers and Wi-Fi hot spots.


Unfortunately, there¹s not much you can do with the G.P.S. According to
Apple, the iPhone¹s G.P.S. antenna is much too small to emulate the turn-by-turn navigation of a G.P.S. unit for a vehicle, for example.


Instead, all it can do at this point is track your position as you drive along, representing you as a blue dot sliding along the roads of the map. Even then, the metal of a car or the buildings of Manhattan are often enough to block the iPhone¹s view of the sky, leaving it just as confused as you are."
v3 iPhone anyone?

Maybe if your driving around downtown New York in an armour plated hummer.

I drove in my car for 30 miles plus through rural and city areas without the slightest problem. It kept up to date at least as well as any sat nav I've had the only difference being that the iPhone picked up my location far quicker (presumably because of a-gps).

From what I've seen the hardware is more than capable of being used for sat nav.

 

[t0mat0]

Maybe if your driving around downtown New York in an armour plated hummer.

I drove in my car for 30 miles plus through rural and city areas without the slightest problem. It kept up to date at least as well as any sat nav I've had the only difference being that the iPhone picked up my location far quicker (presumably because of a-gps).

From what I've seen the hardware is more than capable of being used for sat nav.

Those are quotes, apologies for being confusing. I don't know what Pogue drives!

We'll see about what it can do, when a developer forgets about battery issues, and has the GPS ask for fixes at a decent time interval. Better than a paper map still, eh?

 

[ripkord]

I'm waiting on tomtom and a review before I part for the 3G.... I may as well just buy a tom tom, I care not about 3g.

 

[daveschroeder]

Well, I just got my iPhone 3G, and the GPS is excellent. It acquires a fix quickly and maintains a fix easily, even in a car, and tracks just as you'd expect. This is just as good as any other handset with GPS.

So the only thing remaining to be seen is some clarification about why Apple is avoiding targeting this market, why the prohibition is in the SDK, and why it is making statements that would seem to steer people away from thinking about vehicle navigation products on the iPhone.

Seeing the GPS capabilities of the iPhone now firsthand, there is no question the iPhone is technically capable. Telenav and TomTom can "confirm" satnav apps all they want, but until Apple steps up and says they'll allow such apps in the app store, it's moot.

To the person who said it could be for jailbroken phones...I had to catch my breath a bit after laughing so hard. The hacking/jailbreaking community is FAR too small — no matter how vibrant it is, and no matter how big YOU think it is — to support a commercial-quality, reliable, supported, paid satnav product. Sorry.

This will have to be official, and will have to come via the App Store. But Apple may have other agreements/limitations/restrictions/plans which we don't know about. We'll just have to wait for clarification or a change to the SDK license from Apple, and the only time satnav will be "confirmed" on the iPhone is when end customers can download it from the App Store (or Apple makes a direct and explicit comment saying that it will be allowed).

 

[czachorski]

Maybe Apple signed an exclusive navigation software deal with Tom Tom. Why else would Tom Tom want to develop an app and use their map data? It would only erode their GPS unit sales. But if Tom Tom had an exclusive deal to get their software on iPhones, that might make it worthwhile.

 

[daveschroeder]

Maybe Apple signed an exclusive navigation software deal with Tom Tom. Why else would Tom Tom want to develop an app and use their map data? It would only erode their GPS unit sales. But if Tom Tom had an exclusive deal to get their software on iPhones, that might make it worthwhile.

Good theory, but TomTom AND Telenav have both "confirmed" sat nav products for iPhone 3G.

And it'd probably be safe to say they're not both exclusive.

I'd bet that Apple is being pulled in a number of different directions here:

Google - Googles data license prohibits use of Google maps data for turn-by-turn/sat nav, because Google's own data providers (some of whom are sat nav providers themselves) prohibit it (and I know this has nothing to do with sat nav vendors who license and provide their own data, but just mentioning for completeness)

AT&T - AT&T typically charges for sat nav services on handsets

Other carriers - See above

Customer base - don't want to over sell and under perform

Sat nav vendors - all of whom want "exclusive" treatment on the iPhone, and (probably) aren't going to get it

No one at TomTom, Telenav, or Apple probably knows what the final answer is going to be. I'd guess we'll get such apps someday. But something is causing Apple to tread VERY lightly on sat nav in particular (else it wouldn't have the exclusions in the iPhone SDK license, and wouldn't directly tell high-profile New York Times reviewers that the iPhone 3G isn't suitable for in-car navigation — and it's not just Google Maps).

We'll have to wait and see how this shakes out. But now that I have tried it, there is absolutely no question the iPhone 3G is technically suitable for in-vehicle navigation. In fact, from what I can tell of its ease in getting and maintaining an accurate real-time fix, it's better than most...

 

[Mad Mac Maniac]

Where Are The Gps Apps?!

 

[sherthang]

Apps using GPS

The GPS feature has been implemented by various applications in the App store-for weather, for astronomy, for airline info, etc. So the point of a GPS, ie telling you where you are and the time, is not just for nav software! I tried the iPhone with one of the astronomy Apps and the GPS was very useful

 

[marksman]

The problem here clearly that Pogue was talking out of his backside.

So he we have argument about something that doesn't even exist.

Pogue is a dork just like many of us here. He is not a super-genius. He likely gets most of the things he knows from other people. In this case he just happened to be woefully informed and wrote about it anyways.

So now we have an argument about turn-by-turn gps and the rest, and there is no evidence to support anything Pogue said about the GPS is true. Especially since we know for a fact at least one and maybe more major Navigation companies are deep into projects with the 3G iPhone to do just that.

So who you going to believe about running a 4 minute mile? The guy running it, or the guy watching in the stands?

 

[slycrel]

geopher

I think a number of us are on pins and needles as to the state of GPS software on the iPhone.

I've hesitated announcing this anywhere, but I may as well take the plunge. I've had this app submitted since wednesday afternoon, it has been and is currently "In review".

http://geopherdemo.blogspot.com

I plan on doing something more full featured, but thought I'd get a free app that would be decently useful to play with sooner. The only question is will apple allow it?