Grammar Police. 'None is' or 'None are'?

[pseudobrit]

I don't see how it would be singular.

Q: "Are the sweaters red"
A: "None of them are red"

Are is none is talking about the sweaters, which is plural, so then by my rules "none" is plural.

But if you're talking about a specific sweater it changes:

"Which sweater is red?"
"None is."

 

[theBB]

Here is how I think about it:

Two of the images are fake. (Two are fake.)
One of the images is fake. (One is fake.)
None of the images is fake. (Not one is fake.)

(Choice of the sample sentence is due to how the initial discussion started on the other thread.)

 

[MrSmith]

And lastly, for those who don't know any better, you have sugery. Not a surgery. Not three surgeries. But sugergy.

We have surgery if we have an operation. If we're talking about the locations then the word can be plural. In my town there are many doctors' surgeries.

As for sugergy, I have no idea

 

[pseudobrit]

But if you're talking about a specific sweater it changes:

"Which sweater is red?"
"None is."

I carefully look through the rack of sweaters, searching for the one I saw last week and liked but didn't buy.

Alas, none is the one I'm looking for.

 

[joe_adk]

Strunk and White

stolen from the interweb-thingy:

Strunk and White (4th ed), p. 10:

With none, use the singular verb when the word means "no one" or "not one."

[incorrect]: None of us are perfect.
[correct]: None of us is perfect.

A plural verb is commonly used when none suggests more than one thing or person.

[correct]: None are so fallible as those who are sure they're right.​

 

[Squire]

Both...it depends

From the book "ABC of Common Grammatical Errors" by Nigel D. Turton

Case #1
None of the food were fit for human consumption. [incorrect]
None of the food was fit for human consumption. [correct]

Explanation: When none of is followed by an uncountable noun ("food"), the verb is singular.

Case #2
None of these murders have been solved yet. [depends]
None of these murders has been solved yet. [correct]

Explanation: When none of is followed by a plural count noun ("murders"), the verb may be either singular or plural. When we mean "not a single one", the verb is singular: "None of these essays is worthy of a distinction."

When we mean "all...not", the verb is plural: "None of the shops are open today."

In formal styles, careful users generally prefer a single verb.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
My take? Let's look at the original example questioned by commonpeople:

"None of the images are believed to be real at this time"

Shouldn't that be "None of the images is believed to be real at this time"?

I believe, based on the reference and explanation I quoted, that he/she is correct here. "None of the images" more likely means "not one of the images" because we would consider each image as a separate case (i.e. a submission, attachment, or link) rather than consider the whole collection of images. (See the "essay" example above.)

I suppose in the end, it depends on your interpretation and what you personally feel comfortable with. In my last 10 years teaching English at the university level, I've realized how pointless these arguments can sometimes be. Typically, my default response to questions of this sort is, "It depends." That keeps me out of trouble.

I hope this helps.

-Squire

<edit> The post above by joe adk is excellent. I highly recommend that great little book: The Elements of Style.

 

[Heb1228]

I give up!

You guys keep at it though and let me know what you decide!

 

[commonpeople]

I give up!

You guys keep at it though and let me know what you decide!

I pity the fool who get's it wrong.

 

[Squire]

I pity the fool who get's it wrong.

That was quick...and witty.

-Squire

 

[theviceofreason]

In my last 10 years teaching English at the university level, I've realized how pointless these arguments can sometimes be. Typically, my default response to questions of this sort is, "It depends." That keeps me out of trouble.

Agreed, they are almost always pointless. I've worked in quite a few places where I've corrected common errors only to have them reinstated because they're "house style". Funnily enough, the same people who keep making these mistakes tend to be vehemently pedantic about one particular point of grammar of their choice - the split infinitive is a favourite.

As long as the meaning is clear, I can live with it.

Now, misplacing apostrophes is another matter entirely...

 

[Mr Skills]

More here.

Grammar, of course, is a fraud. If it sounds better, it'll be that way ...

Up to a point. I think knowing good grammar is important but, for me, 'good grammar' should allow you to express yourself better, not straightjacket you into (often arbitrary) rules.

So grammatical rules I consider important - such as use of the apostrophe - I will stand up for. Rules I consider pedantic - never starting a sentence with 'and'; never splitting an infinitive; never constructing a sentence without a verb - I ignore when doing so allows me to express myself better.

Good grammar is about good expression. I think everyone should learn the rules, then be allowed to break them.

Two fantastically enjoyable books that celebrate grammer for what it can DO, rather than what it stops you doing, are 'Eats, Shoots And Leaves' by Lynne Truss and 'Mother Tongue' by Bill Bryson. Two highly informative but often laugh-out-loud books.


EDITED FOR GRAMMAR

 

[Mr Skills]

Up to a point. I think knowing good grammar is important but, for me, 'good grammar' should allow you to express yourself better, not straightjacket you into (often arbitrary) rules.

And here's a good example of what I mean ...

I was technically correct by putting the comma after 'but', but if I wrote that entry again I would but the comma after 'important'. Not as correct, but it reads better.

The 'no punctuation before a conjunction' rule is one of those I consider arbitrary...

 

[Black&Tan]

I got into an argument with an English teacher (in the USA) over this one, using the plural subject point of view. Her response, over 20 years ago, was that it is singular. A prepositional phase "of xxxxx" is considered extraneous, so if you remove the phrase, then you must use "is" instead of "are."

I can see her point, although I did not agree. But that's fourth or fifth grade English.

 

[theviceofreason]

None [of which] is.. works

None is.. doesn't work.

I rest my case on the "none is" not working.

None are.. works without anything added.

Sorry, that wasn't the best example. To simplify it you could say, "Of the three options, none is acceptable."

 

[pseudobrit]

And here's a good example of what I mean ...

I was technically correct by putting the comma after 'but', but if I wrote that entry again I would but the comma after 'important'. Not as correct, but it reads better.

You needn't have used a comma at all until you got to the end.

Overuse of commas is an epidemic in amateurish academic writing. I'm a minimalist with comma use because I ****ing hate seeing some twit drop twelve of them amongst thirty words.

 

[Mr Skills]

I too dislike overuse of commas, but using them wisely to separate clauses can make the sentence smoother and easier to read. The common misconception is that commas go any place you pause for breath. In fact, while they do sometimes end up in natural pauses, their primary purpose is really helping the sentence along rather than stopping it.

I resisted the comma after 'along' just for you, pseudobrit. And I feel all the better for it!

 

[pseudobrit]

In fact, while they do sometimes end up in natural pauses, their primary purpose is really helping the sentence along rather than stopping it.

I resisted the comma after 'along' just for you, pseudobrit. And I feel all the better for it!

I would have excluded the words "In fact" (an extraneous phrase anyway) to avoid using any comma.

Nothing is more beautiful than a streamlined sentence that's written to be read and not spoken.

 

[thedude110]

for me, 'good grammar' should allow you to express yourself better, not straightjacket you into (often arbitrary) rules.

I understand and appreciate where you're coming from. The question, I think, is whose grammar is acceptable and whose grammar is not.

For example, the grammar/spelling you'll see in a lot of rap lyrics is "wrong" but enhances "expression." Similarly, Shakespeare's grammar is generally OK, but as far as my students are concerned, his "expression" is lost somewhere between gallowglasses and "whack" syntax.

We can't ignore that grammar defines and shapes social codes and self perception to a signifcant extent. "Good grammar" is the grammar of the empowered, and "bad grammar" is often a way to resist or impose disempowerment.

 

[rebhaf]

What does Bill Gates say?

In basic logic, the verbs "is" and "are" depend on the number/value of the subject...
"One dog IS quiet."
"Three dogs ARE loud."
But, in the case of "none," the value is zero, so neither rule can apply.
Of course, this logic isn't always consistent: "nobody" = 0
"Nobody is speaking." Yes.
"Nobody are speaking." No.
However, if I type "none is" and "none are" into my super-reliable MS Word grammar check, it tells me that both are ok.
I'm with Bill Gates on this one.

 

[Anton Chigurh]

it depends on whether the subject of the verb is plural or singular. None is a contraction of the words "not one" which I would argue is unmistakably singular. In the sentence: "None of these birds is yellow." "none" is the subject of the verb "to be" which is conjugated as "is" in the third person singular form. The sentence could also read: "Not one of these birds is yellow." and it may sound more correct to English speakers. You may argue that "these" is the subject of the verb. This is nonsense b/c only a noun may be the subject of a verb. These is a type of adjective that modifies the birds. The "birds" are also not the subject of the verb. This is best demonstrated with an example. Consider if the sentence were an affirmative statement rather than a negative: "One of these birds is yellow." I hope this sounds more correct to you than "One of these birds are yellow."

 

[P-Worm]

More here.

Grammar, of course, is a fraud. If it sounds better, it'll be that way ...

I think we should say, "Grammar are a fraud." More ironic that way.

P-Worm

 

[it5five]

A two and a half year-old thread revived. Impressive.

 

[ErikCLDR]

Technically I believe it is "none is".


Are the sweaters red?
None of them is.

None = not one

one = singular

is = singular

are = plural

 

[Abstract]

Correct usage #1: None of the bread is fresh. (Singular noun "bread" takes singular conjugation)

Correct usage #2: None of the loaves of bread are fresh. (Plural noun "loaves" takes plural conjugation)
al.

So ... both "is" or "are" would be correct.

OK, lets move on to 'I be' and 'I am', because this is très confusing and I be really confused.


PS: Nice thread revival.

 

[Melrose]

this is just sad. it depends on the context. are is for plural, is is for singular. this is not difficult people!

Would that be true if none is used collectively in regard to a group? For example, you wouldn't say "none is going to the movies tonight" if there's only one chap going..

None is used in relation to a group - all, some, none. All collective nouns.

Then again, I always forget whether to say "youth is" or "youth are"... sickening...

EDIT: Dang I've been sucker-posted again! These old dusty threads snare me every time...