Having in the last 2 years switched the whole company i work for from Windows to Mac OS with over 200 Macs deployed i can say the only thing that annoys users is the fact the green button does not make a program go full screen WITH the dock still showing. Its my only annoyance too. Yosemite made things even worse as users press it now the app goes full screen and they are lost. I don't understand how they are getting the green button so wrong. We try to explain in training how you can have full screen apps in OS X and multiple desktops, but its just lost on them, they want the green button to act like Maximise does in Windows.
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Green Button - Maximize, Not Full Screen
- Thread starter bladerunner2000
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MrNomNoms
macrumors 65816
For me I came from the world of Amiga and Atari so the whole idea of having a single menu at the top, document oriented UI was a natural fit for me when it came to understanding how OS X works. End of the day, no one paradigm is wrong or right but it is important to understand that each operating system has a different underlying philosophical difference in how windows are managed, how end users interact through the file system, whether the file manager is browser based or spatial in nature (GNOME desktop had the same argument way back when things changed in IIRC 2.x series). Personally I quite like the old CDE desktop that came with UNIX's and if modernised I'm sure it would be visually appealing given that functionality wise it operates quite well:
Although I do have a bit of a weakness for the IRIX Interactive Desktop:
What I do find frustrating this nonsense that azpc is creating that some how it is OS X that is out of step with the rest of the universe - in all due respects to him, he needs to read a book on operating UI system design, specifically around the very first GUI because he would find that it is Windows, not OS X, which is historically out of step with how GUI's have been designed and operated. Just because you're familiar with something doesn't make it 'better' or 'superior' - if you're willing to learn how to do things the 'Mac way' then great, hop on board and ask questions on adapting to OS X work flow but if you're going to stomp your feet demanding that OS X is turned into a Windows clone to suit your entrenched ways of doing things then you've come to the wrong place.
No, I hate fullscreen. I use hot corners to display mission control, desktop and application windows. I'm in the Creative Suite daily and need access to the file menu. Full screen is crap for this, I can't use it and have no need for it. I've got a large enough monitor anyway so it doesnt help me regardless.
You can reveal the file menu by bringing your pointer to the top of the screen.
Why do you hate fullscreen?
MrNomNoms wrote "For me I came from the world of Amiga and Atari so the whole idea of having a single menu at the top, document oriented UI was a natural fit for me when it came to understanding how OS X works."
Nice to see another former Amiga user, Welcome! I had several Amiga's, they were a real taste of the future.
Let me clarify, I am not asking that your work environment be changed. I am only asking that a Maximize option be added to OSX. Others have also been asking for this. Please see post by Quackers82 below.
"Having in the last 2 years switched the whole company I work for from Windows to Mac OS with over 200 Macs deployed I can say the only thing that annoys users is the fact the green button does not make a program go full screen WITH the dock still showing. Its my only annoyance too. Yosemite made things even worse as users press it now the app goes full screen and they are lost. I don't understand how these users are getting the green button so wrong. We try to explain in training how you can have full screen apps in OS X and multiple desktops, but its just lost on them, they want the green button to act like Maximize does in Windows."
I see the same issue all of the time in my business and so does my brother who teaches computer science at one of the local colleges.
Why is this issue important with switchers? I think there are two primary reasons.
First, some users multitask via the Dock. They use a fully maximized window covering the desktop and use the Dock to switch apps. This is why they want the menu bar and the Dock visible at all times. When Apple removes the menu bar and the dock these users ask Why is Apple fighting me?"
Second, If anything can be learned from the Windows 8 debacle, it is this. Unless the new method is clearly superior, people prefer the similar. This point has been widely discussed in Crossing the Chasm by Geoffrey Moore and in Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard by Professors Chip & Dan Heath.
No one method is incorrect. Just like Myers Briggs has identified multiple personalities the computer world has multiple productivity styles.
Apple has a superior product, now they need to provide just enough flexibility to accommodate familiar habits while they come to fully appreciate their new systems.
This is why I think a maximize setting is a great idea. It allows customers to maximize their productivity style.
- Some like to work with one window only and use trackpad gestures to switch apps.
- Some people like multiple windows scattered over the desktop.
- Some multitask via the Dock. Fully maximized window covering the desktop and use the Dock to switch apps.
Take care, and enjoy your Mac.
w0lf
macrumors 65816
Oh yeah I forgot about that... Shocking that people are still posting in this thread and not just using one of the multiple tweaks that fix the issue.
w0lf
macrumors 65816
How does it not do exactly what you're asking in the OP? Doesn't even seem like you tried the posted solution because you can set it to fill the screen both horizontally and vertically on left click with BTT.
Moom displays a box beneath the green button after you hover it, which means the green button is STILL BROKEN. Moom is only a bandaid.
BTT I use daily, but it doesn't address the problem either.
But it works, as shown in the video (and I tested it myself just now on Yosemite). Just choose Maximise Window as the specified action instead of Zoom Window Below Cursor. It's not an ideal solution, but a solution nonetheless. This is the exact same thing Windows and Linux users have to do when they want a feature that isn't shipped.
Yes, I am aware of several third party utilities. In fact, I sent a list to Tim Cook. While I am very glad they exist, there are two issues that exist with third party utilities.
Compatibility issues & cost issues.
Yes I know they are cheap, however, new Mac users are not expecting to need extra utilities to do "fundamental" tasks. Needing to add extra software to maximize a window leaves a bad taste in their mouth before they really get a chance to enjoy the Mac.
Compatibility issues & cost issues.
Yes I know they are cheap, however, new Mac users are not expecting to need extra utilities to do "fundamental" tasks. Needing to add extra software to maximize a window leaves a bad taste in their mouth before they really get a chance to enjoy the Mac.
That is nothing but an assumption on your part which you don't back up. Every system needs to be tweaked, enhanced and personalised for optimal enjoyment. It's not something I am disappointed about and as I said before, the nature of operating systems is to draw utility from numerous sources, not the primary developer. You don't complain about Apple either when your favourite apps are not pre-installed for you.
hojx
macrumors 6502
I think it is simply a case of lack of significant demand. Apple has changed the behaviour of the green button for consistency, since the green button pre-Yosemite has been marked as 'Zoom' and not 'Maximise', and people were frustrated with the inconsistent behaviour. Most people have adapted fairly quickly to it with no complaints, most people prefer the new-found consistency.
No functionality has been 'lost'—they are simply relocated to make way for a more consistent implementation. OS X and iOS are still mainly marketed on a consumer level so they want to keep things consistent (hence simpler, i.e. less confusing) by not adding too many customisation options. Adding one new option by default just because a very small percentage of users insist on it will just open floodgates to more of such requests, especially if that particular option serves to emulate behaviour in Windows. What if Apple offers that option to change the default behaviour and next I want the red button to quit the entire application as default behaviour rather than closing only the window (among so many other 'small' customisation requests)? What if—oh heavens—I wanted a Start Menu in OS X?
One person may want one option; five hundred people will end up wanting five hundred options for every other part of the OS. Different operating systems simply have different operating paradigms unless there is a clear demand for it that cannot be (relatively) quickly adapted to.
Of course, there could be other reasons why Apple may not want to open up this particular option. Stability? Possible security loopholes with certain API implementations? Other broader long-term visions for the OS? I certainly don't know the full picture and I probably never will unless I have been in the OS X team for years. Which is why I always try to think in their shoes rather than being quick to criticise.
Just to be clear, I am not against adding that option in System Preferences. I'm just trying to say the demand's not there yet.
There are options for power users built-in universally—the 'option' key. A double-click of title bar offers the same functionality. Otherwise, there are third-party tweaks.
BTW, Windows 8 did not screw up over full-screen window management (in fact many people liked (and still like) the split-screen feature).
The problem was that the change was too radical; too many major parts of the OS were overhauled at once.
They changed the start screen/menu, introduced Modern UI (Metro) apps, and swipe gestures—each by itself already requiring quite a fair bit of time to adapt to and Windows hardware were too diverse for performance to be consistently smooth. Apple however has a long-term vision which takes into account adaptation time by consumers. So while there are changes, they don't force everything down your throat at once. Instead, you take it bit by bit, adapting your behaviour as time pass.
No functionality has been 'lost'—they are simply relocated to make way for a more consistent implementation. OS X and iOS are still mainly marketed on a consumer level so they want to keep things consistent (hence simpler, i.e. less confusing) by not adding too many customisation options. Adding one new option by default just because a very small percentage of users insist on it will just open floodgates to more of such requests, especially if that particular option serves to emulate behaviour in Windows. What if Apple offers that option to change the default behaviour and next I want the red button to quit the entire application as default behaviour rather than closing only the window (among so many other 'small' customisation requests)? What if—oh heavens—I wanted a Start Menu in OS X?
One person may want one option; five hundred people will end up wanting five hundred options for every other part of the OS. Different operating systems simply have different operating paradigms unless there is a clear demand for it that cannot be (relatively) quickly adapted to.
Of course, there could be other reasons why Apple may not want to open up this particular option. Stability? Possible security loopholes with certain API implementations? Other broader long-term visions for the OS? I certainly don't know the full picture and I probably never will unless I have been in the OS X team for years. Which is why I always try to think in their shoes rather than being quick to criticise.
Just to be clear, I am not against adding that option in System Preferences. I'm just trying to say the demand's not there yet.
There are options for power users built-in universally—the 'option' key. A double-click of title bar offers the same functionality. Otherwise, there are third-party tweaks.
BTW, Windows 8 did not screw up over full-screen window management (in fact many people liked (and still like) the split-screen feature).
The problem was that the change was too radical; too many major parts of the OS were overhauled at once.
They changed the start screen/menu, introduced Modern UI (Metro) apps, and swipe gestures—each by itself already requiring quite a fair bit of time to adapt to and Windows hardware were too diverse for performance to be consistently smooth. Apple however has a long-term vision which takes into account adaptation time by consumers. So while there are changes, they don't force everything down your throat at once. Instead, you take it bit by bit, adapting your behaviour as time pass.
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hojx
macrumors 6502
Maybe that's an assumption I made, just like you can't show that there is a very large demand for a green-button customisation option.
Also,
OS X Yosemite Design http://www.apple.com/osx/design/
WWDC 2014
My solution to the change of the green button's function was to go to "System Preferences -> Keyboard" and set a new keyboard shortcut - "Command + Control + Option + f => Zoom" for all applications. I haven't met an app that had the same keyboard combination for shortcuts.
Despite the amount of modifier keys involved, they're all beside each other...
The full screen shortcut is "Command + Control + f" by default.
Despite the amount of modifier keys involved, they're all beside each other...
The full screen shortcut is "Command + Control + f" by default.
I've used Windows for many years (since Windows 3.1, if not earlier). I'm also a web developer in a Microsoft based company. So I work on Windows all day, every day.
When I switched to a Mac a few years back, I realized it wasn't Windows. Hell, the price alone let me know I was entering new territory. I knew things weren't going to behave the same. I knew I was leaving Windows behind and learning something new. I accept my Mac for what it is and use it as designed rather than try to get it to behave like the thing I left behind. Are there features I miss from Windows? Absolutely (though this green button thing isn't one of them). Are there things I don't like about my Mac? Absolutely. But at the same time, there are things I LOVE about my Mac that Windows doesn't do. Neither is better than the other. They're simply different. If I want the Windows experience, I'll switch back (or fire up Parallels and runs Windows that way).
It was the same thing when Windows 8 came along. I heard significant amounts of whining from people because things were different. When I tried it out, I really had no problems. Took a day or two of fooling around to see how the new system was put together and how to re-create my old workflows. Then I was just fine (while still not enjoying the new interface).
The point is that I decided to adapt myself to the new thing rather than trying to force the new thing to look like the old thing. And I've been happy since then. There's a lot on my Mac that doesn't look and behave the way Windows does. Some of those are good changes, some are bad changes. Still, I find life goes so much smoother when I learn to work with what I have rather than force it to be something it's not. Don't like the new behavior? Fine, deal with it anyway, find a workaround, contact Apple, look into 3rd party solutions, go back to Windows. There are numerous solutions that DON'T involve insulting people like myself simply because I don't agree with your position. The arrogance and rudeness I've seen in this thread (primarily from a single user) just blows my mind.
As for getting an option added, go for it. I hope you're successful. But, that guy over there? Yeah, he has a really, just absolutely fantastic idea that just needs one or two settings added. And the lady next to him has this amazing idea that just needs 3 options added, and that other person over there... As has been mentioned, if Apple starts adding options, not because they feel it fits with their vision, but because users are demanding them (some quite rudely), you're going to end up like Windows with so many options you won't be able to find anything. Either accept the simplicity of your Mac or go back to Windows.
If you're searching for the perfect OS, you'll either need to write it yourself, work with what you have, or continue to act like a 6-year old child. But only two of those options will ultimately give you long-lasting satisfaction.
PS I forgot to mention that whether I'm on Windows or Windows 8 or Mac or whatever, I've noticed no real decrease in my productivity. Sure, I have to keep in mind whether I'm on a Mac or Windows machine. I have to adapt my thinking and behavior to my environment. Just as I would when switching from an automatic to a stick shift. But when I adapt to the software instead of expecting my software to adapt to me, I completely eliminate any productivity issues. Not that maximizing my windows would be a drain on my productivity in the first place, but apparently we do have users who can turn a 5-second task into wasted hours, so I guess that's an important point to mention.
When I switched to a Mac a few years back, I realized it wasn't Windows. Hell, the price alone let me know I was entering new territory. I knew things weren't going to behave the same. I knew I was leaving Windows behind and learning something new. I accept my Mac for what it is and use it as designed rather than try to get it to behave like the thing I left behind. Are there features I miss from Windows? Absolutely (though this green button thing isn't one of them). Are there things I don't like about my Mac? Absolutely. But at the same time, there are things I LOVE about my Mac that Windows doesn't do. Neither is better than the other. They're simply different. If I want the Windows experience, I'll switch back (or fire up Parallels and runs Windows that way).
It was the same thing when Windows 8 came along. I heard significant amounts of whining from people because things were different. When I tried it out, I really had no problems. Took a day or two of fooling around to see how the new system was put together and how to re-create my old workflows. Then I was just fine (while still not enjoying the new interface).
The point is that I decided to adapt myself to the new thing rather than trying to force the new thing to look like the old thing. And I've been happy since then. There's a lot on my Mac that doesn't look and behave the way Windows does. Some of those are good changes, some are bad changes. Still, I find life goes so much smoother when I learn to work with what I have rather than force it to be something it's not. Don't like the new behavior? Fine, deal with it anyway, find a workaround, contact Apple, look into 3rd party solutions, go back to Windows. There are numerous solutions that DON'T involve insulting people like myself simply because I don't agree with your position. The arrogance and rudeness I've seen in this thread (primarily from a single user) just blows my mind.
As for getting an option added, go for it. I hope you're successful. But, that guy over there? Yeah, he has a really, just absolutely fantastic idea that just needs one or two settings added. And the lady next to him has this amazing idea that just needs 3 options added, and that other person over there... As has been mentioned, if Apple starts adding options, not because they feel it fits with their vision, but because users are demanding them (some quite rudely), you're going to end up like Windows with so many options you won't be able to find anything. Either accept the simplicity of your Mac or go back to Windows.
If you're searching for the perfect OS, you'll either need to write it yourself, work with what you have, or continue to act like a 6-year old child. But only two of those options will ultimately give you long-lasting satisfaction.
PS I forgot to mention that whether I'm on Windows or Windows 8 or Mac or whatever, I've noticed no real decrease in my productivity. Sure, I have to keep in mind whether I'm on a Mac or Windows machine. I have to adapt my thinking and behavior to my environment. Just as I would when switching from an automatic to a stick shift. But when I adapt to the software instead of expecting my software to adapt to me, I completely eliminate any productivity issues. Not that maximizing my windows would be a drain on my productivity in the first place, but apparently we do have users who can turn a 5-second task into wasted hours, so I guess that's an important point to mention.
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Three simple facts:
90% of the world is used to the Maximize function covering the entire desktop while leaving the task bar visible.
Most Mac switchers did not purchase a Mac because they liked how the Mac handled the Maximize function. They purchased a Mac for:
Finally, we are not asking that everyone be forced to change, we are only asking for an option to set the behavior of the Maximize function.
90% of the world is used to the Maximize function covering the entire desktop while leaving the task bar visible.
Most Mac switchers did not purchase a Mac because they liked how the Mac handled the Maximize function. They purchased a Mac for:
- To avoid Windows viruses
- Mac was more similar to Windows XP then Windows 8
"Having in the last 2 years switched the whole company I work for from Windows to Mac OS with over 200 Macs deployed Ican say the only thing that annoys users is the fact the green button does not make a program go full screen WITH the dock still showing. Its my only annoyance too.
Yosemite made things even worse as users press it now the app goes full screen and they are lost. I don't understand how how users are getting the green button so wrong. We try to explain in training how you can have full screen apps in OS X and multiple desktops, but its just lost on them, they want the green button to act like Maximize does in Windows."
Yosemite made things even worse as users press it now the app goes full screen and they are lost. I don't understand how how users are getting the green button so wrong. We try to explain in training how you can have full screen apps in OS X and multiple desktops, but its just lost on them, they want the green button to act like Maximize does in Windows."
Finally, we are not asking that everyone be forced to change, we are only asking for an option to set the behavior of the Maximize function.
This is just apoligist speak. It doesn't change anything, Apple is still wrong on how to maximize an application window on a DESKTOP without having the option to maximize as normal.
The 90% of the rest of the world; MS Windows. That's normal. If you want full screen, I'm fine with that. I need the option to change it however.
Fair enough.
I don't think you need it since as others have mentioned there are multiple ways to achieve what you want with or without 3rd party utilities.
It's closer to a want.
But you are entitled to your opinion so I'll leave it at that.
The way I perceive it - it doesn't hurt to ask. The worst Apple can say is no.
However, I can promise Apple it is in their best interest to provide an option. I know too many people who have a real issue with the current setting.
Take care and enjoy your Mac!
hojx
macrumors 6502
Towards having the option to change how the button works, I don't think anyone is strongly against having that option.
I suppose most of us are pretty neutral towards it and are just listing possible reasons Apple is not implementing that option yet.
Maybe Apple thinks there is no need to emulate Windows maximise behaviour just because people are used to it.
Maybe most Mac users accept having to adapt their workflow, and understand that there isn't always a clear right or wrong in UI/UX design and usability.
Thanks for being the clear-headed one on the Yes side by speaking with respect for others.
I personally don't see the need for another option but ultimately I respect your opinion.
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