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While it is good to see Apple acknowledge it should reveal more details of the energy consumption of its data centers, the information they released today does not add up with what they have reported to be the size of the investment and physical size of the data center. [...] While Apple is well known for making more expensive consumer products, if Apple's plans for the $ 1Billion investment only generates 20MW in power demand, that would be taking the "Apple premium" to a whole new level.
Hold the hard drives (15000RPM server drives: approx. 18W) and put in SSDs (approx. 0.5W). You've paid the premium AND consume 97% less power.

Time to recalculate :rolleyes:
 
Little known Nuclear Power Facts...

Today there are more animals living around Chernobyl than in most zoos and the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki who survived were among the healthiest people to ever live. Radiation is no different than water, it can give life just as easily as it can take it.
 
Today there are more animals living around Chernobyl than in most zoos and the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki who survived were among the healthiest people to ever live. Radiation is no different than water, it can give life just as easily as it can take it.
And fortunately, your MacPro with ECC RAM works in those areas, too. :)

Just let the Iran bomb the **** out of us all, and we will live happily and healthy and surrounded by animals just like those Witnesses of Jehova.
Beautiful_Surroundings.jpg
 
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@bedifferent

(Here's a long one for ya. Not sure if anyone will read it, but I liked writing it)

The reason you got a negative vote is that you only quote this one article from Dr. Helen Caldicott, and that source is not very good (the article is not good, I am not commenting on her credentials here).

Note that the article you linked to did not have any sources attributed to it saying where the data came from. This makes the numbers quoted suspect. 95.648% of all un-sourced quantities in articles are made-up ;). Contrast this with an article on Skeptical Science; you see quotes, data, charts, pictures, and other quantifiable, provable data. In that article, you just take her (the author's) word.

Additionally, the article uses many tricks to skew perspective. Example:

I will describe four of the most dangerous elements made in nuclear power plants.
Iodine 131, which was released at the nuclear accidents at Sellafield in Britain, Chernobyl in Ukraine and Three Mile Island in the US, is radioactive for only six weeks and it bio-concentrates in leafy vegetables and milk.
...
Strontium 90 lasts for 600 years.
...
Cesium 137, which also lasts for 600 years
...
Plutonium 239, one of the most dangerous elements known to humans, is so toxic that one-millionth of a gram is carcinogenic

The article places Iodine first, stating that it WAS released. The other, longer lasting, more severe isotopes are then placed after Iodine, insinuating that they were also released to the same extent. Also, Iodine is less severe compared to the others, and with preparation and direction (like using Iodine pills after an incident), the affects can be drastically mitigated (something not done at Chernobyl); this was not mentioned.


Take also the cost section:

The true economies of the nuclear industry are never fully accounted for. The cost of uranium enrichment is subsidized by the US government. The true cost of the industry's liability in the case of an accident in the US is estimated to be $US560billion ($726billion), but the industry pays only $US9.1billion - 98per cent of the insurance liability is covered by the US federal government. The cost of decommissioning all the existing US nuclear reactors is estimated to be $US33billion. These costs - plus the enormous expense involved in the storage of radioactive waste for a quarter of a million years - are not now included in the economic assessments of nuclear electricity.

True, nuclear power is subsidized by the government, but so is coal, gas, wind, solar, and so on. Also note that no value is given for the subsidy.

The liability cost is said to be $726 billion. Where does this number come from? What kind of accident? How many plants must fail at once for this number? What has to happen for an incident of this level to occur? By not stating what kind of accident(s) would cause a $726B cost, it seems like any accident at the facility would cost that much. (Also, the cost doesn't exist until an accident happens.)

The decommissioning costs are misleading, too. The costs for decommissioning are paid by the licensee, not the government. Putting the cost of decommissioning ALL plants (not just one at a time) right after stating the government subsidizes costs makes one think that the government (and by proxy, the citizens) pony up the cash. Plus, the commissioning cost IS accounted for prior to allowing the plant to start, so the statement that these costs are not accounted for is at best a mus-understanding and at worst a straight lie. http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/decommissioning.html


There are other examples, like the CFC gas emissions, which are just red herrings.


Additionally, there is no perspective with the radioactive isotopes. Tritium, Xenon, and and Argon are thrown into the article, but little perspective is given on the actual levels produced, what has historically been released, what damage that can occur (based on the radiation type released, penetration distance, documented safe exposure limits, and the method of exposure), and what would have to happen for the radiation to be released. Take Tritium for example: you know those awesome watches that continuously glow? The things that divers routinely use? That's not magic, that's Tritium.

Google rebuttals to Caldicott's work. She is bias, just like the other side of the argument is likely bias. However, she will cherry pick data which does not agree with the consensus of scientists. She thinks the World Health Organization, the U.N. Scientific Committee on Atomic Radiation, and the IAEA have conspired to lie about the affects of radiation. She quotes a single source, a New York Academy of Sciences report, as her sole justification that the numerous studies performed by the other organizations are invalid. This is akin to a Global Warming denier quoting a solitary study that says the earth has been cooling for the last 50 years and dismissing all the other evidence as a giant Eco-conspirasy. http://www.democracynow.org/2011/3/30/prescription_for_survival_a_debate_on

If you want a good (equally biased) counter point, try this link: http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2007/08/re-running-caldicott.html

The NEI Nuclear Notes site has many rebuttals of her work, going into actual numbers, sources, and many counter points to the article you posted. (In fact, she actually grabs a couple of numbers from that blog's site, so it's good enough resource for her http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/dr-caldicott-vs-nuclear-power-round_26.html)

(note that most of the articles are greater than 6 years old, so a good bit of the links back to the NEI main site are broken.)

-Edited to state I was addressing "bedifferent" (good name by the way)
 
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edited for brevity

I have a ton of information regarding nuclear energy, Dr. Helen Caldicott is a well respected medical doctor with expertise in cancer research at Harvard University, while sitting on many boards regarding energy policy in Australia, the U.S. and the E.U. The reason I quoted that article is due to its highly respected analysis of nuclear energy. That was from a press conference and plea to the Australian government in 2006 which lead Australia away from building more nuclear plants. Many of her remarks are scientifically factual, I was not going to further a long article with dozens of links and such. If you like, simply google Dr Helen Caldicott and her work. It will better inform you than I can. Here are just two articles from a simple google search: (and thank you for your kind response, I was thrilled that someone wrote a nice, articulate and respectful response :))

However the rebuttal source/site regarding her work are also extremely bias (The Nuclear Energy Institute is a PRO Nuclear Energy organization, so of course they will attempt to rebuttal expertise on nuclear power, that is tantamount to using the Clean Coal Industry to rebuttal scientific facts on the dangers of coal energy, clean coal is a laugh riot oxymoron to those in the field but a GREAT PR program for the masses) and have been proven to be PRO nuclear energy based on the funding from many groups it has received. There are very few in the field who would disagree with Caldicott on her research, especially given her bio and what she has accomplished and the recognition she has rightfully earned such as the Nobel Peace Prize. Again, NEI is not a reputable source, I would recommend reading on more re: the NEI, and Caldicott is not the only expert in this area, but she is the leading expert and has dedicated much of her time and money to educating people on the dangers of Nuclear energy. Also, someone made remarks re: the chemicals from nuclear power, those chemicals are NOT with regard to a nuclear meltdown, they are the BYPRODUCTS from nuclear energy (re: the chemicals produced during cooling of the core/rods). Many of those chemicals are placed in area's that are kept locked down as there is NO WAY to dispose of the poisonous waste that nuclear energy produces, and believe me it is more than "water" as someone suggested. There has been a ton of proof that nuclear energy is the worst for of energy available.

The Fukushima Nuclear Disaster in Perspective

Today, Dr Helen Caldicott’s message on nuclear power is more relevant than ever

Helen Caldicott, MD

Her bio:

The single most articulate and passionate advocate of citizen action to remedy the nuclear and environmental crises, Dr Helen Caldicott, has devoted the last 38 years to an international campaign to educate the public about the medical hazards of the nuclear age and the necessary changes in human behavior to stop environmental destruction.

Born in Melbourne, Australia in 1938, Dr Caldicott received her medical degree from the University of Adelaide Medical School in 1961. She founded the Cystic Fibrosis Clinic at the Adelaide Children’s Hospital in 1975 and subsequently was an instructor in pediatrics at Harvard Medical School and on the staff of the Children’s Hospital Medical Center, Boston, Mass., until 1980 when she resigned to work full time on the prevention of nuclear war.

In 1971, Dr Caldicott played a major role in Australia’s opposition to French atmospheric nuclear testing in the Pacific; in 1975 she worked with the Australian trade unions to educate their members about the medical dangers of the nuclear fuel cycle, with particular reference to uranium mining.

While living in the United States from 1977 to 1986, she co-founded the Physicians for Social Responsibility, an organization of 23,000 doctors committed to educating their colleagues about the dangers of nuclear power, nuclear weapons and nuclear war. On trips abroad she helped start similar medical organizations in many other countries. The international umbrella group (International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War) won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1985. She also founded the Women’s Action for Nuclear Disarmament (WAND) in the US in 1980.

Returning to Australia in 1987, Dr Caldicott ran for Federal Parliament as an independent. Defeating Charles Blunt, leader of the National Party, through preferential voting she ultimately lost the election by 600 votes out of 70,000 cast.

She moved back to the United States in 1995, lecturing at the New School for Social Research on the Media, Global Politics and the Environment, hosting a weekly radio talk show on WBAI (Pacifica), and becoming the Founding President of the STAR (Standing for Truth About Radiation) Foundation.

Dr Caldicott has received many prizes and awards for her work, including the Lannan Foundation’s 2003 Prize for Cultural Freedom and 21 honorary doctoral degrees, and she was personally nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by Linus Pauling – himself a Nobel Laureate. The Smithsonian has named Dr Caldicott as one of the most influential women of the 20th Century. She has written for numerous publications and has authored seven books, Nuclear Madness, Missile Envy, If You Love This Planet: A Plan to Heal the Earth (1992, W.W. Norton) and A Desperate Passion: An Autobiography (1996, W.W. Norton; published as A Passionate Life in Australia by Random House), The New Nuclear Danger: George Bush’s Military Industrial Complex (2001, The New Press in the US, UK and UK; Scribe Publishing in Australia and New Zealand; Lemniscaat Publishers in The Netherlands; and Hugendubel Verlag in Germany), Nuclear Power is Not the Answer (2006, The New Press in the US, UK and UK; Melbourne University Press in Australia) and War In Heaven (March 2007). Dr. Caldicott’s most recent book is the revised and updated If You Love This Planet (March 2009).

She also has been the subject of several films, including Eight Minutes to Midnight, nominated for an Academy Award in 1981, If You Love This Planet, which won the Academy Award for best documentary in 1982, and Helen’s War: portrait of a dissident, recipient of the Australian Film Institute Awards for Best Direction (Documentary) 2004, and the Sydney Film Festival Dendy Award for Best Documentary in 2004.

Dr Caldicott currently divides her time between Australia and the US where she lectures widely. She founded the US-based Nuclear Policy Research Institute (NPRI), which evolved into Beyond Nuclear. Currently, Dr Caldicott is President of The Helen Caldicott Foundation/NuclearFreePlanet.org, an educational outreach project that informs people of the dangers of nuclear power and weapons. The mission of the Foundation is education to action, and the promotion of a nuclear energy and weapons free, renewable energy powered, world.

Dr Caldicott can be heard discussing urgent planetary survival issues on her weekly radio show If You Love This Planet, and is the Founder and Spokesperson for People for a Nuclear-Free Australia, established to represent the millions of Australians who uphold the strong belief that there should be no uranium mining, nuclear power plants or foreign nuclear waste in Australia.

Dr Caldicott is also a member of the International Scientific Advisory Board advising José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, Prime Minister of Spain.


And fortunately, your MacPro with ECC RAM works in those areas, too. :)

Just let the Iran bomb the **** out of us all, and we will live happily and healthy and surrounded by animals just like those Witnesses of Jehova.
Image

AWESOME :)


EDIT: In post #118, you point out all the emissions (in addition to Iodine, Strontium, Cesium, and Plutonium) that are released by nuclear power plants. While it’s disingenuous to call nuclear power “clean,” compare the pollution from a nuclear plant to a coal plant:



[Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil-fuel_power_station#Radioactive_trace_elements. Again, apologies for Wikipedia, but the article has ample citations.]

Nuclear power is not clean, but it seems cleaner than fossil fuels (unless, of course, there is a meltdown).

Thank you for reading post #118, that was my original comment and my reposting was merely snippets as to save over-running this thread with repetitive information. Yes, neither nuclear or coal are clean, however (and I hate to admit this) I would rather coal than nuclear energy as the byproducts from coal are much less harmful than nuclear, and don't last thousands of years. :)

As human beings we exhale carbon dioxide so perhaps we should just kill ourselves. Wouldn't that be the easiest way to save the planet?

Sadly, yes. (and I am purposely using a big image, for the individual who sarcastically commented I should google "medium" images) :p

plastic-island.jpeg
 
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Today there are more animals living around Chernobyl than in most zoos and the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki who survived were among the healthiest people to ever live. Radiation is no different than water, it can give life just as easily as it can take it.

LOL...source?
 
...downvote to negative infinity...

Ugh, trying to convince techie's that nuclear energy is horrible and that e-waste is an issue is exhausting, I'd have more luck at convincing Santorum to vote pro-choice or getting Ann Coulter to admit "she's a man, baby!"

I really hate Greenpeace, they throw all kinds of numbers and hope it will shock people.

But Greenpeace loves you! :p (and all those numbers and facts can be so confusing)
 
that second response

You would think that Greenpeace would be thrilled that Apple's data center is so energy efficient that it only needs 1/4 the power that Greenpeace thought it did.
 
Doesn't that depend how much of the 20mW is to run air handling?
Much of that would drop off over night. Cooling load and Solar power generation should track fairly nicely against each other.

Actually, no.

The air conditioning systems are mainly removing heat generated by the servers, not dealing with high outside air temperatures heating the interiors. Even if the datacentre were perfectly insulated (R-infinity), you'd need the chillers to get the heat out of the interior 24x7.

Most large buildings, even in temperate zones, do not have any heating systems (or if they have them, they're seldom if ever used). The HVAC systems are there to remove heat generated by equipment and wetware units (and the HVAC systems themselves).

The advantage of putting server farms in Iceland and other cold climates is that you can "open the windows". Instead of running chillers, you can flood the building with cool outside air.
 
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Oh look the moron brigade is back.

Protest groups do not compromise, their job is to criticise until they reach ideological perfection. All protest groups know this is unattainable, but by maintaining principle you ensure that noone can ever consider their efforts "good enough".

Greenpeace are criticising Apple and others because they are not carbon neutral.

You can claim that it's "unreasonable" to demand that, but then you just have no idea what a protest group is for.

As for Apple apparently being "green", they are very poor on that front, largely due to not disclosing any information and guess what? If a company isn't shouting about how green they are but are in fact hiding any information, it's usually not a good sign.
 
a quick google this. While it maybe true for older cells which were mostly used to reduce reliance of carting in power (fuel or cable) to remote locations. Modern Cells have in a good location are around 2 years energy payback with 20+ year life span.

Cool, thanks for showing me :)

----------

If that's true, then how can my 8.5 kW solar array pay for itself in about 6-7 years?

Paying for itself in regards to how much it cost you to purchase and install vs the savings in your power bill is one thing. You're right. They do pay for themselves.

What i meant was that in terms of energy required to make the solar panel and it's various components (and often CO2 released as a result), compared to the amount of CO2 saved by you no longer using traditional sources for power.

I was informed that it actually required more CO2 to build these things and transport, than you could ever compensate for in a units traditional lifespan.

It turns out that this used to be the case with older models, but is no longer an issue. See the post above from MattInOz.
 
Ugh, trying to convince techie's that nuclear energy is horrible and that e-waste is an issue is exhausting, I'd have more luck at convincing Santorum to vote pro-choice or getting Ann Coulter to admit "she's a man, baby!"

Unfortunately, no large scale energy source has zero impact.

Our area (San Francisco Bay Area) has some spots with nearly perfect situations for wind turbines. Unfortunately as well, we also have a large population of raptors that haven't figured out that they shouldn't fly into the blades of the wind turbines.

I'm not blindly anti-nuclear. Chernobyl was due to extreme stupidity on the operators, Three Mile Island in many ways showed that the systems in place in fact worked to avoid a crisis, and the tsunami incident shows that we need to look at "much worse case scenarios", not just "worst case scenarios" when building systems. (And we should seriously look at the age of the systems at Fukushima Daiichi, and seriously look at decommissioning reactors which do not meet the "best practices" of today.)

I'm also supremely grateful to the workers at the Fukushima Daiichi complex who put themselves at risk (and will likely suffer health problems in the future) in order to contain the problem.

But the top level view is that coal has killed more people than uranium.

We need to consider things from "the top level view".
 
Unfortunately, no large scale energy source has zero impact.

Our area (San Francisco Bay Area) has some spots with nearly perfect situations for wind turbines. Unfortunately as well, we also have a large population of raptors that haven't figured out that they shouldn't fly into the blades of the wind turbines.

I'm not blindly anti-nuclear. Chernobyl was due to extreme stupidity on the operators, Three Mile Island in many ways showed that the systems in place in fact worked to avoid a crisis, and the tsunami incident shows that we need to look at "much worse case scenarios", not just "worst case scenarios" when building systems. (And we should seriously look at the age of the systems at Fukushima Daiichi, and seriously look at decommissioning reactors which do not meet the "best practices" of today.)

I'm also supremely grateful to the workers at the Fukushima Daiichi complex who put themselves at risk (and will likely suffer health problems in the future) in order to contain the problem.

But the top level view is that coal has killed more people than uranium.

We need to consider things from "the top level view".

Some good points. A friend of mine who works with radiation everyday had this to say:

I find it interesting. Radiation does have it's uses. As does nuclear power, but not at the level that it is being used. It's an alternative. A cheap one. A lazy one. And an environmentally costly one. It's a short term buzz that creates a problem in the long run. If we were only using it medically, OK. If we were using it to power a space shuttle, OK. But we're not, we're abusing it. Anyone denying the downside to this is either blind, stupid, or has a financial or political stake in it.
 
Actually, no.

The air conditioning systems are mainly removing heat generated by the servers, not dealing with high outside air temperatures heating the interiors. Even if the datacentre were perfectly insulated (R-infinity), you'd need the chillers to get the heat out of the interior 24x7.

Most large buildings, even in temperate zones, do not have any heating systems (or if they have them, they're seldom if ever used). The HVAC systems are there to remove heat generated by equipment and wetware units (and the HVAC systems themselves).

The advantage of putting server farms in Iceland and other cold climates is that you can "open the windows". Instead of running chillers, you can flood the building with cool outside air.

How well the HVAC system works or any heat pump will depend on the energy differential between what you want to cool and where you dump the heat. If the air is colder and denser outside the system doesn't take as much energy to pump the waste heat outside. If it's bright, sunny, warm and solar cells are kicking away the heat pumps need to work harder to create a big enough heat differential. Well unless they ground couple but that generally isn't used 100%.
 
The response from Greenpeace to Apple's disclosure is a joke. They derisively imply Apple is lying. What a haughty organization Greenpeace is! I used to have respect for them.
 
Update: In a statement issued to The New York Times, Apple discloses for the first time that the current data center in Maiden, North Carolina consumes roughly 20 megawatts of power, meaning that the 25 megawatts of power planned for the solar farm and fuel cell facility at that location should be sufficient for at least this phase of the project. Apple's long-term plans include eventually doubling the size of the data center with a second building, and it seems unlikely that the 20-megawatt number includes those plans.

Greenpeace is always making crap up but Apple's math here doesn't work either.

A 20 MW solar installation does not guarantee 20 MW of power 24/7. It only guarantees about 3-4 MW. If you don't believe me, go look up capacity factor, which is a variable power engineers use when they're trying to match generation to load.

A 20 MW solar farm + 5 MW's of fuel cells will not cover a 20 MW datacenter by any means - it won't even cover half.
 
Questions for Greenpeace to ponder:

First,
Where's your own 2010 report on how well you are doing? And how well did you improve on it in 2011? You don't include yourself in your own report so as to lead by example.

Second,
Your estimates have now been shown to be wrong - by half of a full order of magnitude. Instead of explaining how you were wrong, you try to make it seem "bad" that a company was dramatically more (5x) energy efficient than you gave them credit for. And while you criticized them for not being previously forthcoming, what you clearly failed to appreciate that being far more efficient than your competitors is a not-insignificant advantage for a business.
 
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