Gruber: Face ID replacing Touch ID INTENTIONAL, decided 1+ year ago

Discussion in 'iPhone' started by thadoggfather, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. thadoggfather, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017

    thadoggfather macrumors G4

    thadoggfather

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    #1


    https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/iphone_x_event_thoughts_and_observations

    Apparently, Apple *wanted* to replace Touch ID with Face ID

    So it would appear, releasing the X without Touch ID, wasn’t due to manufacturing issues/inability to embed the touchID in the screen, though they never took it that far because that was the backup plan, this was an intentional strategic decision

    ...Thats interesting!

    Especially for people like myself who suspected otherwise. And think (thought?) that Touch ID will be embedded next year.

    I wonder if this will change if sales are low enough. But that could be quite an out there conditional statement— sales, low, for an Apple product, seems unlikely. No matter the reservations people have, and the prices set — but we’ll see!



    I like his candidness about the chin, he has some concerns about it and wishes it was a flush solid black bar on all but home and lock screen, but finds it to not be a deal breaker either.

    I’m surprised he didnt bring up that no dark mode was a miss too, OLED = infinite blacks, wouldn’t you want to see that screen look like its floating, beyond an all black wallpaper?

    Great chin comment- “Johnny Ive either lost a bet or his mind” LOL!
     
  2. Appl3FTW macrumors 603

    Appl3FTW

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    #2
    It's the rule of technology... everything has a cycle. Touch ID is sooo 5s series. So what year was that? Lol. 2013? I must say tho... the Touch ID introduction was groundbreaking, 5s is still my favorite S cycle release ever!
     
  3. thadoggfather thread starter macrumors G4

    thadoggfather

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    #3
    Why go through the effort of having a haptic feedback, solid state Touch ID in 7/7+ and continue it with 8/8+?

    I think apple knows not everyone will adopt to Face ID only trend, so they offered the alternative too
     
  4. WilliamG macrumors G3

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2008
    Location:
    Seattle
  5. rasputin1969, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017

    rasputin1969 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    #5
    Gruber is on record in stating that he’d be very disappointed if the next iPhones did not have ProMotion, and yet when it comes to pass that it does not, he doesn’t say a word and instead lauds the fact that it has true tone. He’s a total shill.
     
  6. JPack macrumors 68040

    JPack

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2017
    #6
    Revisionist history, IMO.

    I'm sure Apple wanted to replace Touch ID, but not abruptly without another form of biometric security.

    If Apple wasn't pursuing in-display Touch ID, they could have finalized the iPhone X design a long time ago. And started ramping production months ago, instead of days before the keynote. Everything we see today points to last minute design and ramping.

    Ming-Chi Kuo told us as early as April 2016, Apple was planning a 5.8" OLED design. With all the resources at Apple's disposal, I doubt it took them 18 months to come up with iPhone X unless they encountered some bumps along the way.
     
  7. thadoggfather, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017

    thadoggfather thread starter macrumors G4

    thadoggfather

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    #7
    I think he’s part Apple shill, part interesting insight, definitely with an invested interest, and interesting sources.

    All things considered, I’ll lend an ear cause I’m always curious and all things combined does make for a great read as long as you take it with some grain of salt.

    There’s only one kind of Gruber, though.

    After all, I still believe his article about “what if Apple charges $1500 for an iPhone” That he ended up linking to the backlash thread here in MacRumors, and responding to with another article, was intentional vetting of how people would react to a price like that,

    Not that the X that was just announced was going to be $1500, necessarily, since the features and production were locked in, but maybe vetting future premium models with even MORE features, like another tier of premium beyond premium, if people would bite at the idea of something like that.. He’s definitely some form of an insider, beyond a curious Apple fan with Apple friends (imo)

    Guaranteed if this thread gets multiple pages, he’ll give this one a skim too

    Even if he doesn’t hyperlink it on his Daring Fireball :p
     
  8. Appl3FTW macrumors 603

    Appl3FTW

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    #8
    The haptic feedback and the removal of the physical home button is purely a test run from Apple, IMO. I think they want people to get used to the idea of no physical home button clicker. So it's kinda like a Segway to the removal of it. And also, it might've been a trial run for incorporating the touchId integrated into the screen... but we all know that was ditched with faceID.
     
  9. magbarn macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2008
    #9
    If you have a 6S or a 7, compare your TouchID speed vs FaceID on Craig Federighi's demo. Current TouchID is basically instantaneous, while FaceID is about as slow as 1st gen TouchID of the 5S (which annoyed the heck out of me), so yes, you're going back in time to 2013 speed. No FaceID for me until it's just as fast as current TouchID. Plus FaceID would be a pain to unlock while driving.... ;)
     
  10. thadoggfather, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017

    thadoggfather thread starter macrumors G4

    thadoggfather

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    #10
    Thats a stretch that haptic feedback and removal of physical home button (its still physical, its just not physically clicking in) is a test run to get you used to idea of no physical home button. Imo. I dont follow ya there.

    MBP’s went from a traditional dive board trackpad to haptic trackpad 2015 onwards, are they getting us used to removing the trackpad all together eventually and replacing it with air-hand gestures to move the mouse?

    Again, 8/8+ have this solid state home button.

    7 and 8 have home buttons and Touch ID’s, solid state or not, to go from having one to not is a major jump in the user experience.

    I think Apple knows Face ID was going to be a polarizing issue, price of X and implementation/effectiveness of ID tech, aside. So its smart they offered 8/8+

    They could have killed home button on 8/8+ and implemented Face ID on 8/8+ Instead if they so desired, and delineated 8 and X by OLED and trimmed bezels and improved cameras, etc.

    Also interesting that Gruber makes no direct comparison to effectivenes of Face ID to 1st or 2nd gen Touch ID, but to say it works well from engineers who use the X as their daily, and works well in the dark in particular...

    Avoiding a very particular detail many people are interested in and curious about, specifically.

    Steve T-S (@stroughtonsmith) the guy that dissected X firmware last weekend, said he’s just guessing Face ID will be as good or probably better than 1st gen Touch ID but not 2nd, but not a deal breaker.

    This is his speculation, since he hasn’t used the device and firmware cant reveal effectiveness of the new tech, but thats about where I’d guess it falls too:
    Somewhere between Touch ID 1st and 2nd generation.
     
  11. Appl3FTW macrumors 603

    Appl3FTW

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    #11
    Tech 101... Touch ID is a matured tech 4 years ago. Of course it has been perfected compared to the initial release. In my experience I've never had issues, even with the 1st gen.

    The face ID is still in its infancy. From the looks of the hands in reviews, it is instantaneous. Now, room for improvement? Yes... but again it's still in its 1st gen cycle. Just wait and watch to see it mature and turn into a beast.
    --- Post Merged, Sep 14, 2017 ---
    Bruh the integrated vs separate clicker... what don't u follow? Lol
     
  12. thadoggfather, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017

    thadoggfather thread starter macrumors G4

    thadoggfather

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    #12
    Let’s not continue this “bruh” I dont even follow what you’re saying— did you bother to read what I replied with?

    You’re all for defending Face ID, having never tried it and thats fantastic, but I’m all about exploring what Gruber has to say about Apple’s decisions behind Face ID replacing Touch ID, and other details in the article specifically

    There are plenty of other threads where you can defend or attack Face ID to your hearts content.
     
  13. Appl3FTW macrumors 603

    Appl3FTW

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    #13
    Relax I'm not attacking or defending anything. It's an opinion.
     
  14. trekkie604 macrumors 68000

    trekkie604

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    #14
    1 year ago they were just adding Touch ID to the MBP. At the same time they were actively working to remove it from their flagship phone? Smells like bs to me.
     
  15. Nik macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    #15
    John Gruber is known to only provider information which favors Apple.
    [Insert animated pile of poo here]
     
  16. thadoggfather thread starter macrumors G4

    thadoggfather

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    #16
    Touch ID is not a “matured tech 4 years ago.” My problem isnt that you’re amenable to embracing Face ID, its that your facts are simply incorrect.

    if it were mature tech, there would be no 2nd generation sensor 6s onward, or solid state implementation 7 onwards. Theres no other way to explain that, except as an evolution of an existing tech.

    To say having a solid state but still physical home button, is to get people used to removing it all together and switching to face detection, is inexplicable logic to me.

    If you’re going to argue, and pull the “bruh” responses and fire out responses without reading mine, get your facts straight. Not interested in your raw emotions, I dont find them overly interesting
     
  17. Appl3FTW macrumors 603

    Appl3FTW

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    #17
    Gruber= as accurate as a meteorologist. He is no Ming Kuo. Please.
    --- Post Merged, Sep 14, 2017 ---
    Ok let's start being nitpicky, I stand corrected what I meant to say is matured FROM 4 years ago. If that wasn't implied enough.
     
  18. thadoggfather thread starter macrumors G4

    thadoggfather

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    #18
    I’m quoting your own words here.

    “Touch ID is soooo 5s series?”

    Its come a long way, as I’ve already stated, and provided specific examples.

    You’re not contributing to this conversation. Feel free to contribute, if you want to actually read Gruber’s article, and respond to the content in it. But otherwise, please give it a rest.

    I find Gruber’s article and people’s reactions to it interesting, not your childish responses
     
  19. Appl3FTW macrumors 603

    Appl3FTW

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    #19
    Yes, u read it right.. it is sooo 5s series from 2013. It's gone bruh, time to move on.
     
  20. WilliamG macrumors G3

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2008
    Location:
    Seattle
    #20
    No it's likely not easy to remember everything one has said. I know I don't.
     
  21. Nanotyrns macrumors 65816

    Nanotyrns

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2012
    Location:
    Denver
    #21
    I think it remains to be seen if the Touchbar lasts much longer. It sort of a good idea but in execution and workflow it's not working out to be that popular. Once they ramp up the production of those FaceID sensors then that would be a much more seamless integration on a MacBook than TouchID. Between that and unlocking/ApplePay-ing with an Apple Watch, why would you even need TouchID on a MacBook any more?
    --- Post Merged, Sep 14, 2017 ---
    You know that scene in "9 to 5" where they send Roz off to learn French to get her out of the way for a few weeks?

    Yeah, I bet Jony Ive knows French real good just about now...
     
  22. ApfelKuchen, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017

    ApfelKuchen macrumors 68030

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Location:
    Between the coasts
    #22
    It's nice to have some confirmation of what I've been saying for a while. Face ID is not "Plan B" technology. The narrative that it was rushed to market when under-screen Touch ID didn't pan out doesn't jibe with the realities of R&D and product development. In that world, you start several parallel projects and choose the winner. Since the tech behind Face ID is far more sophisticated, research would have been started well before under-screen Touch ID. The only question a year ago, when decisions of this sort had to have been made, was, "Is it ready for prime time, or do we continue with Touch ID for another year or so?"

    Engineering types would simply salivate over the possibilities afforded by the various components needed for Face ID - components that enable far more than simple biometric ID. That array of 3D components would make the launch of ARKit that much more powerful. They'd have been pushing for Face ID from the beginning, and lobbying for Face ID would likely have been far more passionate than for Touch ID.

    The fewer mechanical buttons there are on the iPhone, the easier it is to achieve the desired level of water resistance, and the lower the cost of warranty support (broken buttons). I'm sure eliminating that mechanical Home button was a long-desired goal in engineering - it gets by far the most duty-cycles of any switch on the device, so solid-state was the way to go.

    I can't predict whether Touch ID will be phased out in new models after another year, or maybe two, but since the 8 will be produced and sold as a budget-friendly model until at least 2019 or 2020, Apple isn't losing the money spent on developing that particular bit of tech.

    Haptics weren't developed for the Home button, they were a useful solution from Apple's existing bag of tricks. They're put to far better use in TouchPad and Watch. So again, if Apple uses it in new model iPhones for only a few years, no loss.

    I doubt Touch ID in the 8 is an example of hedging bets. Apple, the company that put "creative destruction" on the map?? It's purely a matter of money and time. That bundle of Face ID components is much more expensive than a solid state Home button. If you want to keep the price of the 8 within range of the 7, then Face ID is out of the question, for now. However, the next generation of Face ID components will be cheaper, and probably more compact. At that time, they'll be ready for the mainstream product line. As with automotive tech, new technologies need early adopters with deep pockets - the gee whiz stuff at GM usually starts out in Cadillac, not Chevrolet.

    Mainstream skepticism about Face ID can only be overcome through time and positive word of mouth. For now, it's not trusted - but it will likely earn that trust over the next year, as Touch ID did.
     
  23. ascender macrumors 68020

    ascender

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    #23
    Gruber clearly has some good sources at Apple, he's demonstrated this time and time again. He often tends to be very honest about what he's heard and the reliability of that information. I also suspect he gets told a lot of stuff that he chooses no to share for one reason or another.

    Daring Fireball is still the first tech website I read for an honest, accurate view of the tech world with a focus on Apple news. He doesn't hide his love for the company and as someone who has used Apple products for the same sort of time as he has, I find he has a similar view of the company to me, particularly around what makes Apple different from other companies. That's a view which I know isn't shared by a lot of people who've only really discovered Apple since the iPhone.

    I might not agree with everything he writes, but he's consistent in his views, not afraid to admit he gets something wrong and the bottom line for me is he's a good writer, I enjoy reading his stuff.

    Anyway, there's a few people who clearly have reliable contacts at Apple and there's also a hell of a lot more who just regurgitate anything they hear, whether first hand or just from other articles. There's so much clickbait, sensationalist and nonsense written about Apple that I wish there were more people like him writing*

    And that's kind of the point. There were a few rumours about TouchID and FaceID on the iPhone X, as there always are when it comes to this sort of thing. Different commentators took different views and as always happens, some theories became more popular than other ones and start to become taken as the truth. I'd imagine decisions like this at companies the size of Apple are much, much more complex than we're ever party to, but that doesn't really make for great headlines. I always assumed the FaceID thing was a mixture of all of the rumours we heard, but also its one of those things where Apple would be damned if they did, damned if they didn't.


    *This post was not paid for by the John Gruber election campaign.
     

Share This Page

22 September 14, 2017