Gruber’s thoughts on Vision Pro

[phenste]

First Impressions of Vision Pro and VisionOS

In the same way that the introduction of multitouch with the iPhone removed a layer of conceptual abstraction — instead of touching a mouse or trackpad to move an on-screen pointer to an object on screen, you simply touch the object on screen — VisionOS removes a layer of abstraction spatially.

daringfireball.net

interesting read—leave it to Gruber to put something out this detailed. full honesty in its drawbacks; praise for the things it got right.

reply with your thoughts!

 

[nevesis]

Best review I’ve read so far. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Analog Kid]

One thing I haven't seen discussed yet is how big a space it can accommodate. Gruber talks about the carousel of app windows, but can I just leave on in the bedroom and walk back to the kitchen, then find that window again in the bedroom when I go back? Can I pin a picture frame forever over the mantle?

 

[Kierkegaarden]

I read it too — thoughtful writing — clearly he sees this as a big idea, and I couldn’t agree with him more on that front.

 

[FriendlyMackle]

First Impressions of Vision Pro and VisionOS

In the same way that the introduction of multitouch with the iPhone removed a layer of conceptual abstraction — instead of touching a mouse or trackpad to move an on-screen pointer to an object on screen, you simply touch the object on screen — VisionOS removes a layer of abstraction spatially.

daringfireball.net

interesting read—leave it to Gruber to put something out this detailed. full honesty in its drawbacks; praise for the things it got right.

reply with your thoughts!

Thank you for highlighting Gruber’s review, it might have taken me a while to think to look at his site. That was (as always) perceptive, forward-thinking, and beautifully described his experience with the device.

I had planned to await at least the 3rd iteration of the Vision Pro, but after reading John’s review, I am seriously tempted to say, ‘the h3ll with it, I’m buying it as soon as it hits the Apple Store!’

Just for the immersive audio-visual experience quality, as well as the idea that I could take a break on a mountain, in a forest, and maybe stare into the eyes of a great cat (maybe a Sabertooth?) or a Dire Wolf. Just WOW.

If I am able to read at length, write emails, video-conference, it sounds like I could even do some amount of work on the Vision Pro. About the same amount I do on the iPad, but with so many more capabilities heretofore not possible.

I do think that this is goiing to be a hit once people are able to actually use the device and have the truly novel experience of spacial computing. But, it will definitely take several years for them to manage to reduce the price enough to make a true mass-market item which could sell at a much more accessible price.

But I look at it this way, mainstream consumers routinely purchase $1500 cell phones ($2300 folding phones), $1500 tablets, and $2,000+ laptops.

Just the laptop and tablet together could cost the same as the Vision Pro in this top-market pricing scenario (before they manage to create a lower cost version).

Remember the original iPad was $499 (I think that was it), and today, the base iPad model sells for around $329 (on sale for $269). That’s the 9.7” model.
The original 2010 model, in today’s costs would cost $694. So the current price is 53% of the original model’s price - before any sale discounts.

I don’t think Apple will be able to reduce the market price of the Vision Pro by 50% in just 13 years…but I can certainly see a huge reduction that will place the (future) device within mainstream budgets.

I wrote earlier this week that I thought Apple would need to give this at least 5+ years to catch on; I now think they’ll need more like 10 years to make it truly affordable. But well before then I expect it will be popular enough that they’ll make the decision to continue with this product.

 

[phenste]

One thing I haven't seen discussed yet is how big a space it can accommodate. Gruber talks about the carousel of app windows, but can I just leave on in the bedroom and walk back to the kitchen, then find that window again in the bedroom when I go back? Can I pin a picture frame forever over the mantle?

that's a fantastic question! the answer will most likely have to wait until people get their hands on the device—from all accounts, the demos were very controlled, which gives me the vibe (not surprisingly) that the device and OS aren't completely finished yet.

on a totally miscellaneous note, I'm so glad one thing the renders didn't get right is the headband. the breathability on the headband they made looks so much better than anything Sport Band-esque.

 

[Matz]

This is a very good first impressions review, and Gruber covers a lot of ground for only having had 30 minutes with the device. I'd never read anything by Gruber until this article, and found it to be thoughtful and well-written.

Whereas my first impression when watching the keynote was cautiously interested in this product, after a few days thinking about it and reading accounts of people that have actually tried it, including this one, I have to say that I am now excited about this platform and what it can do, even in its first iteration.

It seems expensive when thinking of it as another AR/VR headset. But it's not just another headset; it's a computer that I expect, over time, will fundamentally change how people use computers.

I'm writing this on my Mac Mini with a rather nice 27" LG monitor, and thinking that this will seem primitive in the not too far distant future. Yes, having a set of goggles on is physically limiting in some ways, but so is using a laptop. Or a desktop. Or a tablet. Future versions will undoubtedly be lighter, smaller, and more powerful. But this first version is, to me, impressive.

I'm looking forward to how this unfolds over the next year, and in the coming years.

 

[NT1440]

One thing I haven't seen discussed yet is how big a space it can accommodate. Gruber talks about the carousel of app windows, but can I just leave on in the bedroom and walk back to the kitchen, then find that window again in the bedroom when I go back? Can I pin a picture frame forever over the mantle?

He speaks to that, kind of, in his praise for how accurately items can be placed in space. Obviously the answer to “what happens when I leave the room” can’t be answered yet as none of the demos were set up in a multi-room environment so we’re gonna need to wait for more info.

 

[Analog Kid]

that's a fantastic question! the answer will most likely have to wait until people get their hands on the device—from all accounts, the demos were very controlled, which gives me the vibe (not surprisingly) that the device and OS aren't completely finished yet.

I guess I'm hoping more information about the planned capabilities is coming out in the developer sessions.

The demo was very controlled, as I'd expect at this stage. It's well ahead of the golden path demos that they did for iPhone and such, but it doesn't sound like they're ready to send out dev kits yet. The one demo that they let people stand up for is the T-Rex demo, but I'm guessing people were paying more attention to the big dinosaur than whether the content stayed anchored to the environment.

He speaks to that, kind of, in his praise for how accurately items can be placed in space. Obviously the answer to “what happens when I leave the room” can’t be answered yet as none of the demos were set up in a multi-room environment so we’re gonna need to wait for more info.

His praise is what got me thinking about it, actually. That's a really important capability-- when the content jitters and drifts it's disorienting. I think it breaks the illusion and is probably part of what leads to disorientation.

To anchor the content that stably to then environment they're probably using a combination of the headset position and tracking of the shape and textures of the things you're looking at. If you're at your desk and pivoting around, things always kind of look the same when you turn back to them. When you get up and look at your desk from 90° around and 45° up then it looks quite different. I'm wondering what it can handle.

When you leave the room and come back, the positioning of other headsets often drifts until it finds something it recognizes and does a loop closure to snap back to the map. You'll see the content in the wrong place until it jumps back to where it belongs. AR systems tend to maintain a set virtual spatial anchors around to help with this. I'm curious how well Apple can position this thing.

They have a lot of spatial awareness inside if they're mapping shadows based on ambient lighting and ray tracing the audio. I'm hoping they're out doing other headsets in positioning too. So far though most of the demos have been people sitting and looking around which simplifies the problem essentially to placing everything relative to the sphere around your head.

It might be because that's the more comfortable way to use the system, but it might be because the system is designed to be more like a 3D display than a full AR system. Now that I'm typing that all out I'm also recognizing that they named it visionOS not realityOS.

 

[phenste]

This is a very good first impressions review, and Gruber covers a lot of ground for only having had 30 minutes with the device. I'd never read anything by Gruber until this article, and found it to be thoughtful and well-written.

Whereas my first impression when watching the keynote was cautiously interested in this product, after a few days thinking about it and reading accounts of people that have actually tried it, including this one, I have to say that I am now excited about this platform and what it can do, even in its first iteration.

It seems expensive when thinking of it as another AR/VR headset. But it's not just another headset; it's a computer that I expect, over time, will fundamentally change how people use computers.

I'm writing this on my Mac Mini with a rather nice 27" LG monitor, and thinking that this will seem primitive in the not too far distant future. Yes, having a set of goggles on is physically limiting in some ways, but so is using a laptop. Or a desktop. Or a tablet. Future versions will undoubtedly be lighter, smaller, and more powerful. But this first version is, to me, impressive.

I'm looking forward to how this unfolds over the next year, and in the coming years.

you gotta read DF some more! he runs a great website. one of the few websites that gets onto my RSS feed, along with MR/TechDirt (at Gruber’s recommendation)/Popular Information (great independent news site).

some highlights from the last few months:

Proposed Name for GM’s Upcoming In-House Software Platform (You Know, the One That Isn’t Going to Support CarPlay): Edsel

GM’s $20–25 billion target for services revenue by 2030 feels like a Kendall Roy number — plucked out of thin air by someone just making up figures in an Excel spreadsheet until they get the SUM() result they’re looking for.

daringfireball.net

Warner Bros. Discovery Is Really Going to Drop the ‘HBO’ Brand and Just Call Its Streaming Service ‘Max’

HBO’s new slogan might as well be “It’s not TV. It’s a tab somewhere in the Max app.”

daringfireball.net

App Store Ads Gone Wild

Apple’s business model is no longer the straightforward selling of great products, and these new ads in the App Store are not designed to make anything better other than Apple’s Services bottom line.

daringfireball.net

I Wish I Could Tell You This One Is Not All About Twitter

There are tough sells, and there are tough sells. Selling shares of Twitter at $54.20 today could be grist for a sequel to *Glengarry Glen Ross*.

daringfireball.net

 

[phenste]

Now that I'm typing that all out I'm also recognizing that they named it visionOS not realityOS.

great response in general, just felt like saying on this note—I keep slipping up and calling it Reality Pro after two damn years of rumors. 😂

Vision Pro/visionOS really are better names, imo. someone else already highlighted this in a different thread, but the product (minus the speakers) focuses on one sense—vision. reality encompasses all senses, and Apple doesn’t seem interested in this (ostensibly unintentionally) misleading marketing in the VR space—augmented/virtual spaces ≠ reality as a whole.

 

[Analog Kid]

Vision Pro/visionOS really are better names, imo. someone else already highlighted this in a different thread, but the product (minus the speakers) focuses on one sense—vision. reality encompasses all senses, and Apple doesn’t seem interested in this (ostensibly unintentionally) misleading marketing in the VR space—augmented/virtual spaces ≠ reality as a whole.

They also put a lot into adding high quality ambient spatial audio in this thing. Sounds plays a bigger role in our sense of a space than it usually gets credit for.

But vision was the block buster feature, for sure, and frankly the piece that everyone else struggles at. Whatever the other limitations are, getting this piece right gives them a platform to build on in a way that doing more things but doing them less well wouldn't. If I can only use this sitting in one place, it's still quite usable if the visuals are pristine. If they made incremental improvement on localization but botched the vision piece it wouldn't be as useful (as we've seen with all the others).

 

[dmr727]

Appreciate the thread - that was definitely a good read. Like many others I'm not sure I can justify $3500 on something like this, but I can't wait to get the chance to try one out.

 

[TechnoMonk]

I bought the original iPhone, iPad and AW first gen. I will wait for second gen of Vision Pro if I am gonna get one. It’s not about price but I think the software,Apps and videos need to adapt to vision Pro.

 

[dugbug]

One thing I haven't seen discussed yet is how big a space it can accommodate. Gruber talks about the carousel of app windows, but can I just leave on in the bedroom and walk back to the kitchen, then find that window again in the bedroom when I go back? Can I pin a picture frame forever over the mantle?

The device simulates your walls getting destroyed by the virtual windows as they try to follow you.

 

[dk001]

One thing I am still unclear on is VR or AR.
If this was like putting on a pair of safety glasses, light and easy, it would be something AR I would be very interested in. Like it is atm, it is more like VR. I can already hear the "Do not wear these while..._____________" fill in the blank coming soon from Governments near you.

I showed the demo to my son, avid gamer (fps/rpg) and his comment was, "Too bad it's Apple. Someone else will need to make it before we see it."

Love the tech. Just not sure where this will truly be useful. Too immersive in its current incarnation.

 

[dugbug]

One thing I am still unclear on is VR or AR.
If this was like putting on a pair of safety glasses, light and easy, it would be something AR I would be very interested in. Like it is atm, it is more like VR. I can already hear the "Do not wear these while..._____________" fill in the blank coming soon from Governments near you.

I showed the demo to my son, avid gamer (fps/rpg) and his comment was, "Too bad it's Apple. Someone else will need to make it before we see it."

Love the tech. Just not sure where this will truly be useful. Too immersive in its current incarnation.

Im not sure I understand... it's too immersive?

There is a dial on the top. you rotate left to be AR and right to be VR (and I guess as you rotate you can set how much of the room is overtaken by VR). So yes, it's a fully enclosed system but that does not make it any less an AR system.

AR is the expensive part of this, all the cameras and lidar and low latency room mapping, etc. I wonder if the battery would last longer if you went full VR.


-d

 

[vinegarshots]

Just for the immersive audio-visual experience quality, as well as the idea that I could take a break on a mountain, in a forest, and maybe stare into the eyes of a great cat (maybe a Sabertooth?) or a Dire Wolf. Just WOW.

If that's all you want, just save yourself some money and get a Quest. You can already do this (including watching movies on big screens, movie theater environments, etc etc), and the general experience is similar. Apple's is more refined (higher resolution, more natural UX, etc), but it's the same thing.

 

[dk001]

Im not sure I understand... it's too immersive?

There is a dial on the top. you rotate left to be AR and right to be VR (and I guess as you rotate you can set how much of the room is overtaken by VR). So yes, it's a fully enclosed system but that does not make it any less an AR system.

AR is the expensive part of this, all the cameras and lidar and low latency room mapping, etc. I wonder if the battery would last longer if you went full VR.


-d

Let me exaggerate it a bit ....

It's like a room with screens that can show you true reality or another reality vs a window that can augment what you see with information. VR that has AR capabilities?

 

[UltimateSyn]

"Again, it doesn’t look at all like looking at screens inside a headset. It looks like reality, albeit through something like a pair of safety glasses or a large face-covering clear shield. There is no border in the field of vision — your field of view through Vision Pro exactly matches what you see through your eyes without it. Most impressively, and uncannily, the field of view seemingly exactly matches what you see naturally."

Uh... woah?! This really contradicts what we've heard from a few other people. Maybe Gruber had the best fitment. This would be huge, if it's true. A constrained FOV is one of my biggest concerns for the first-gen.

 

[Mr. Dee]

Thank you for highlighting Gruber’s review, it might have taken me a while to think to look at his site. That was (as always) perceptive, forward-thinking, and beautifully described his experience with the device.

I had planned to await at least the 3rd iteration of the Vision Pro, but after reading John’s review, I am seriously tempted to say, ‘the h3ll with it, I’m buying it as soon as it hits the Apple Store!’

Just for the immersive audio-visual experience quality, as well as the idea that I could take a break on a mountain, in a forest, and maybe stare into the eyes of a great cat (maybe a Sabertooth?) or a Dire Wolf. Just WOW.

If I am able to read at length, write emails, video-conference, it sounds like I could even do some amount of work on the Vision Pro. About the same amount I do on the iPad, but with so many more capabilities heretofore not possible.

I do think that this is goiing to be a hit once people are able to actually use the device and have the truly novel experience of spacial computing. But, it will definitely take several years for them to manage to reduce the price enough to make a true mass-market item which could sell at a much more accessible price.

But I look at it this way, mainstream consumers routinely purchase $1500 cell phones ($2300 folding phones), $1500 tablets, and $2,000+ laptops.

Just the laptop and tablet together could cost the same as the Vision Pro in this top-market pricing scenario (before they manage to create a lower cost version).

Remember the original iPad was $499 (I think that was it), and today, the base iPad model sells for around $329 (on sale for $269). That’s the 9.7” model.
The original 2010 model, in today’s costs would cost $694. So the current price is 53% of the original model’s price - before any sale discounts.

I don’t think Apple will be able to reduce the market price of the Vision Pro by 50% in just 13 years…but I can certainly see a huge reduction that will place the (future) device within mainstream budgets.

I wrote earlier this week that I thought Apple would need to give this at least 5+ years to catch on; I now think they’ll need more like 10 years to make it truly affordable. But well before then I expect it will be popular enough that they’ll make the decision to continue with this product.

Take comfort in knowing even Tim Cook will have to buy his Vision Pro. This is what I see happening.

Version 1 is gonna be on the market for a few years.
Version 2 will will be reduced by about 1000 dollars, version 1 is gonna stick around as the entry level model starting at 1600.
Version 3 is when it becomes mainstream, still 2500, but even more powerful. I see version 1 still around in 2028 for 1,200.

What this says is, it will always be a premium device. Apple is no aiming to bring this device below 1,000 dollars. Its pretty much the next leap in computing and is designed to be Mac strapped to your head that can do everything just the same. So, I think Apple wants to keep it at around 1,999.

 

[Mr. Dee]

He speaks to that, kind of, in his praise for how accurately items can be placed in space. Obviously the answer to “what happens when I leave the room” can’t be answered yet as none of the demos were set up in a multi-room environment so we’re gonna need to wait for more info.

The content stays where you positioned. So, if you were looking at windows in your living room, they are gonna be stationary like your physical Mac if you go into your kitchen. If you press your digital crown, then they will center and adjust in your kitchen.

 

[zakarhino]

The more I read and think about it the more giddy I get with excitement to get one. I haven't felt this excited about a piece of tech since I got my iPhone 4 at the first Apple Store I ever visited.

 

[UltimateSyn]

The more I read and think about it the more giddy I get with excitement to get one. I haven't felt this excited about a piece of tech since I got my iPhone 4 at the first Apple Store I ever visited.

Yup - I’ve transitioned from ~70% likely to get it to ‘basically 100% locked in on launch day.’ This one’s going to be a fun ride.

 

[kkee]

One thing I haven't seen discussed yet is how big a space it can accommodate. Gruber talks about the carousel of app windows, but can I just leave on in the bedroom and walk back to the kitchen, then find that window again in the bedroom when I go back? Can I pin a picture frame forever over the mantle?

I would imagine that should be basic.