Had to return the new Macbook Pro... what to buy now?

[Arry]

After 13 years I finally decided to retire my late 2011 Macbook pro and I bought a new 14" M3 Max. Sadly, the honeymoon lasted a couple days, as after a few minutes with the new M3 I started getting eye strain, headache and dizziness. I've never experienced anything like it with any computer I've used so far. A quick google search revealed that it's not my machine which is defective, indeed there are people who are sensitive to computers that employ pulse-width modulation (PWM) to control monitor brightness.
I've tried all the screen presets available, turned off font smoothing and dithering, without any improvement. Simply I can't work with this computer nor want to put up with this, so, sadly, I'm returning the machine.

Interestingly, earlier this year my wife bought a 13" Macbook Air M3, which I can use without any of the issues above.

I still need to buy a new laptop: I think the last Macbook pros that didn't utilize PWM are the 2019 models. Should I get a used model? Or would a new Macbook Air be a better option?

Other that everyday use I use the computer for audio editing with Logic Pro and video editing with Final Cut, generally for youtube videos and home studio recordings. The only downside I find about the Macbook Air is the lack of cooling fans, that doesn't look like the best recipe for a long lasting machine, but maybe I'm wrong.
Any advice is welcome

 

[tomekwsrod]

Thanks for the info. I'm sensitive as well, but I wasn't aware that this issue also exists with MB Pros.

 

[revs]

A MBA would absolutely destroy a 2019 MBP.

The lack of fan isn't a problem in the MBA, even when/if it clocked down due to heat, it would still destroy the 2019 model in performance.

 

[MBAir2010]

The only downside I find about the Macbook Air is the lack of cooling fans, that doesn't look like the best recipe for a long lasting machine, but maybe I'm wrong.
Any advice is welcome

My MacBook Air m1 works great in humidity wise areas as they don't heat up like intel ones.
I live in the tropics....near Cuba!

 

[Kung]

That's kind of odd; I've had the exact opposite experience. Owned a MBA M2, and recently tried a MBA M3, and both of them gave me eye strain, dizziness, nausea, etc.

Meanwhile, my MBP M2 Pro has been great - no eye strain at all.

In the future, regardless of which machine you try, check out StillColor at the LEDStrain forum - it disables temporal dithering, which is supposedly the cause of the eye strain, etc. (Full disclosure - I could tell that it did work on the MBA M3...but I still got dizzy. I'm wondering if the issue has more to do with the screens they use in the MBAs themselves.)

 

[Fishrrman]

"Any advice is welcome"

Get a Mac DESKTOP (Mac Studio or Mini) and a 3rd party NON-Apple display that DOESN'T use PWM.

 

[neo_cs193p]

An Air with 16/24GB will handle your workload great. I assume your wife has the 8GB if you're still wondering.

 

[Arry]

In the future, regardless of which machine you try, check out StillColor at the LEDStrain forum - it disables temporal dithering, which is supposedly the cause of the eye strain, etc. (Full disclosure - I could tell that it did work on the MBA M3...but I still got dizzy. I'm wondering if the issue has more to do with the screens they use in the MBAs themselves.)

I did try StillColor but unfortunately it didn't solve the issue...

Get a Mac DESKTOP (Mac Studio or Mini) and a 3rd party NON-Apple display that DOESN'T use PWM.

I already have a Mac Mini, but I need a new laptop : )

 

[nullpointerninja]

Are you sure it's because of PWM? Could it be the ProMotion display at 120Hz that's giving you all these problems? If you haven't yet returned the machine you could try disabling ProMotion and seeing if that makes it similar to the MacBook Air that didn't give you any problems.

 

[Kung]

I did try StillColor but unfortunately it didn't solve the issue...

Agreed; it appears to work for thousands of others, but it didn't work for me on the MBA M3. Which is sad because I love the MBA form factor. It's not like I hate the MBP form factor, but given most of my usage is browsing, music, some research, some light desktop editing, etc., the MBA is great for that, and I can easily travel with it.

 

[neo_cs193p]

Are you sure it's because of PWM? Could it be the ProMotion display at 120Hz that's giving you all these problems? If you haven't yet returned the machine you could try disabling ProMotion and seeing if that makes it similar to the MacBook Air that didn't give you any problems.

Had the same symptoms as the OP. I used the MBP in Low Power Mode (which caps refresh rate to 60Hz) for a few weeks, and it made no difference. The MBA is much easier on my eyes for some reason.

 

[groove-agent]

I used to have issues within glossy screens and have the same symptoms. I typically will buy a Moshi antiglare shield for the screen and it helped me immensely. I don’t know if the two issues are related but …

 

[magbarn]

Unless you're looking at the underpowered Intel MBP 13's (which are reliable), avoid the 2019 MBP 16. I went through 2 logic boards before I sold it right after an expensive repair. They're not good long term investments.

 

[Arry]

So, I did order the M3 Macbook Air 13, but sadly I had to return that too.
Very nice machine, it's true that it doesn't heat up (it actually stayed cooler than the M3 Pro I briefly had) unfortunately the display gave me headache and dizziness after 10-15mins of use.

Unlike the Pro, the Air I didn't really give me eye strain, but rather a weird dizziness and mental exhaustion, which I would feel after 15-20 mins of use. During the 14-day return period I think I tried all possible display settings, apps like Stillcolor and Betterdisplay, I even bought an anti blue light screen protector, to no avail.

So I'm back to my late 2011 MBP, which doesn't give me weird symptoms, just like my 2018 Mac Mini, and the Chromebooks that I use at my school.

After 13 years of using a Macbook I really don't want to go back to Windows, but what options do I have? My 2011 is pretty much obsolete (and I had already installed a SSD disk + 8gb ram memory). At this point a new production Macbook is practiacally out of the picture given the recent experiences; are there some older Macbooks that are good for people like me which unfortunately are sensitive to the type of display Apple employs now?

 

[Charlie Swee]

So, I did order the M3 Macbook Air 13, but sadly I had to return that too.
Very nice machine, it's true that it doesn't heat up (it actually stayed cooler than the M3 Pro I briefly had) unfortunately the display gave me headache and dizziness after 10-15mins of use.

Unlike the Pro, the Air I didn't really give me eye strain, but rather a weird dizziness and mental exhaustion, which I would feel after 15-20 mins of use. During the 14-day return period I think I tried all possible display settings, apps like Stillcolor and Betterdisplay, I even bought an anti blue light screen protector, to no avail.

So I'm back to my late 2011 MBP, which doesn't give me weird symptoms, just like my 2018 Mac Mini, and the Chromebooks that I use at my school.

After 13 years of using a Macbook I really don't want to go back to Windows, but what options do I have? My 2011 is pretty much obsolete (and I had already installed a SSD disk + 8gb ram memory). At this point a new production Macbook is practiacally out of the picture given the recent experiences; are there some older Macbooks that are good for people like me which unfortunately are sensitive to the type of display Apple employs now?

Find a second-hand 2015 mbp.
I retired my 15" 2011 mbp for a 2015 15" mbp in early 2023 and it's just brilliant.
There's no way I'm using a PWM display. So crappy compared to older mbp displays.
Fingers crossed that Apple go back to a good display in the next mbp iteration. I'd then buy it. Kinda lost hope on Apple though. They love to go backwards.

 

[bzgnyc2]

So, I did order the M3 Macbook Air 13, but sadly I had to return that too.
Very nice machine, it's true that it doesn't heat up (it actually stayed cooler than the M3 Pro I briefly had) unfortunately the display gave me headache and dizziness after 10-15mins of use.

Unlike the Pro, the Air I didn't really give me eye strain, but rather a weird dizziness and mental exhaustion, which I would feel after 15-20 mins of use. During the 14-day return period I think I tried all possible display settings, apps like Stillcolor and Betterdisplay, I even bought an anti blue light screen protector, to no avail.

Curious back in September you said your wife's M3 MacBook Air 13 didn't give you any issues but this new purchase of the same model now does? Are you saying you are even experiencing different issues between revisions of the same model? I could see this happening if Apple sources screens from different manufacturers for different runs of the same model but that would make this issue even more of a minefield...

are there some older Macbooks that are good for people like me which unfortunately are sensitive to the type of display Apple employs now?

Have you tried the MacBook Air 2020 (Intel)? It won't be quite the leap forward as Apple Silicon but it's very usable with 16GB of RAM and certainly fater than your 2011 model. I don't think I am as sensitive to these things as you but it's been good for me and looks smooth on the Lagom LCD Gradient (banding) test.

 

[cassmr]

Curious back in September you said your wife's M3 MacBook Air 13 didn't give you any issues but this new purchase of the same model now does? Are you saying you are even experiencing different issues between revisions of the same model? I could see this happening if Apple sources screens from different manufacturers for different runs of the same model but that would make this issue even more of a minefield...

I would assume, that it only became evidence after sustained use, as the symptoms are slightly different and perhaps werent immediately noticeable.


I cant think of a good option for OP. I mean i wonder if anyone out there is doing 3rd party screen replacements for macbook pros, maybe they have a cheaper screen that doesnt have it?

Otherwise in 1-2 years they are apparently moving to OLED which may result in a change.

 

[Arry]

Curious back in September you said your wife's M3 MacBook Air 13 didn't give you any issues but this new purchase of the same model now does? Are you saying you are even experiencing different issues between revisions of the same model? I could see this happening if Apple sources screens from different manufacturers for different runs of the same model but that would make this issue even more of a minefield...

It's more likely that the issues became clear after sustained use, although whenever I tried my wife's M3 Macbook Air it did feel like it was fine to use. Maybe there could be differences between models though, as she has a 16gb model whereas I had ordered the 24gb... but I hope that's not the case.

Have you tried the MacBook Air 2020 (Intel)? It won't be quite the leap forward as Apple Silicon but it's very usable with 16GB of RAM and certainly fater than your 2011 model. I don't think I am as sensitive to these things as you but it's been good for me and looks smooth on the Lagom LCD Gradient (banding) test.

Thanks, I haven't tried it but I'll look into it.
Just so I know, are all Intel-based Mac laptops generally safe for people sensitive to PWM?

 

[Arry]

I cant think of a good option for OP. I mean i wonder if anyone out there is doing 3rd party screen replacements for macbook pros, maybe they have a cheaper screen that doesnt have it?

Sadly, at the moment I went back to my old late 2011 Macbook. I discovered about Chromium last night and that already made it feel like a new machine 😅

 

[Digital Dude]

I’ve been using Apple products since 1983 and have owned many Apple computers over the years. Unfortunately, their pricing has pushed me out of that market, though I still use the M2 iPad Pro. Apple is no longer the company it once was in terms of software quality, and I now find myself spending more time troubleshooting and finding workarounds to get things to function correctly. If I were buying a new computer today, it definitely wouldn’t be an Apple product for several reasons. Microsoft’s Surface line shows promise, though their recent rollout of AI features might change things. 🤷‍♂️

 

[bzgnyc2]

It's more likely that the issues became clear after sustained use, although whenever I tried my wife's M3 Macbook Air it did feel like it was fine to use. Maybe there could be differences between models though, as she has a 16gb model whereas I had ordered the 24gb... but I hope that's not the case.

I wasn't thinking the memory capacity but rather since they were ordered at different times perhaps they were from different production runs/hardware revisions and/or sourced different panels?

You might be able to do something like this to see if the vendor/etc are different:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/is-there-a-way-to-know-which-manufacturer-made-your-mbp-display.2324412/

Thanks, I haven't tried it but I'll look into it.
Just so I know, are all Intel-based Mac laptops generally safe for people sensitive to PWM?

That I can't say. Notebookcheck reports PWM or something like it back to at least 2017 Macbooks. However, some of their numbers don't seem to comport with people's experience (i.e. laptop screens they say have 0 PWM seem to cause some people lots of problems and vice-versas).

This could be due to sourcing differences (lending support to the above that the panels used in different production run/etc result in different experiences with the same model) or testing/experience at different brightness levels.

I also notice reports that different models enable PWM at different brightness levels and this could be another variable that is leading to confusion. I might say my Intel MacBook is fine because I run it at 70% but you find that too bright and run at 30% where PWM is enabled (for that model at that brightness).

Last note some people say the issue with more recent Macs is not PWM but FRC. If it is the latter that bothers you then you might seek out displays that are either pure 8-bit or 10-bit rather than 8-bit + FRC. And/or look into disabling 10-bit.

 

[Arry]

I also notice reports that different models enable PWM at different brightness levels and this could be another variable that is leading to confusion. I might say my Intel MacBook is fine because I run it at 70% but you find that too bright and run at 30% where PWM is enabled (for that model at that brightness).

Last note some people say the issue with more recent Macs is not PWM but FRC. If it is the latter that bothers you then you might seek out displays that are either pure 8-bit or 10-bit rather than 8-bit + FRC. And/or look into disabling 10-bit.

Thanks for the info. I wonder what makes the screen on my 2011 Macbook so nice to use compared to what Apple is using nowadays...
One thing I can say for sure is that between the M3 Macbook Pro that I briefly had, and the M3 Air I ordered afterwards there was a difference for sure: the display on the M3 Pro would give me severe eye strain + headache, whereas the Air was actually ok on the eyes but unfortunately gave me headache and dizziness.