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How about an AppleTV-based FrontRow replacement?

If Apple's bringing iOS apps/features to MacOS X...

Why not one I'd actually want and use?

Shrug.
Wasn’t Front Row originally on the Mac and then moved to Apple TV? Pretty sure with the death of the Mac mini (that I used as an Apple TV for a long time), Apple was saying they wanted you to buy a greater variety of Apple products, not less.

Makes me wonder what their purpose for bringing iPad apps to the Mac is... is it because native Mac Apps are falling off? Or they’re planning some sort of dual screen touchscreen iPad with a clamshell design that runs powerful Mac apps ported to iPad? There’s got to be a reason for this.
 
I wonder if Mojave uses APFS also for the Time Machine backup now, in High Sierra the TM backup is stored on a HFS+ partition. I hoped they would start to store snapshots of the file system, like Local Time Machine does now. Just on an external drive or an SMB share.

I don't think that's likely. APFS don't support hard links to directories, and Time Machine relied on them.

Anyone with Mojave noticed differences in graphics performance now? In UI smoothness in general? In Metal apps?

Are all apps/games using OpenCL and OpenGL still working?

I'm trying to find what are the concrete advantages/disadvantages of dropping OpenCL and OpenGL.

High Sierra basically eliminated UI lag for me. It could get choppy even on the 2016 MBP.

Even the newest version of OpenGL is less efficient than Metal and Vulkan, and on the Mac it's stuck on 4.1. The advantages in games have been well documented.
 
It runs, after telling you that it might not do so in future. It's already been said that Mojave is the last macOS to support 32-bit apps I believe.
Are you sure 32bit apps work in Mojave? I thought High Sierra was the last one, because the last updates also issue the warning you mention at starting 32bit apps.
 
Anyone know why my MacBook Pro Mid 2011 was excluded from the upgrade? 32bit processor? Thanks for any input on this as I though it was still working fine, maybe Apple just excludes past 5 yrs?
 
No? I’m just saying I don’t get updates anymore lmao.
The way you phrased your opinion made it seem like your MBA would be your last Apple purchase because of "lack" of updates.
"Well, good bye updates. 2011 MBA is the latest Mac device in the house."
 
One of my favorite additions is - finally - a keyboard shortcut for the Window Menu>Zoom Command - Command-Shift-Delete combination. I've always used the Keyboard Pref Pane's App shortcuts and added "Control-Z" for that command, now I only have to edit that built-in combination...
This is a problem. Most pro 3D/CAD apps I'm aware of are OpenGL/CL and I'm imagining the likelihood of these companies jumping through Apple's hoops to be near zero unless it's a Mac only app that is determined to survive.

Yes, It will mean that a lot of graphics oriented software will not be ported to the Mac and some that already is will stop working.
Not piling on here, not at all. CAD/CAM user here, dozens of Windows users on those apps in my company. As others have pointed out here OpenGL/CL use by pretty much all of the apps on Win were pretty much deprecated in 2010 in favor of DirectX/3D - Metal and Direct3D yield a much nicer end product. A couple of my service consultants have related to me in the past few years that reliance OpenGL/CL is why they don't develop for the Mac platform.

I've got a couple of older workstations around for when one of my consultants who is stuck in the past sends me a file that requires OpenGL, and I've had to work with Autodesk to enable OpenGL on one of those workstations - working with OpenGL is that much of PITA to work with. DirectX's creator, Alex St. John, called the death of OpenGL around 4 years ago when Metal was announced. I'd offer that there won't be a bunch of CAD/CAM apps (like AutoCAD or VectorWorks) certified for Mojave because they'll have their noses buried in porting to Metal. Ditching OpenGL would actually get corporate flunkies like me looking more at investing in the macOS environment after OpenGL is gone. Cheers.
 
The way you phrased your opinion made it seem like your MBA would be your last Apple purchase because of "lack" of updates.
"Well, good bye updates. 2011 MBA is the latest Mac device in the house."
Yeah I agree, sorry it sounded like that. I meant it as in I won’t get to try it.
 
I'm so sick of Apple. Buying the 2017 MBP was the biggest mistake. I was so stupid, should've listened to all the critical voices. This recent developments are just a huge disappointment, a series of bad decision making, starting with the Touch Bar, the constantly breaking keyboard up to the countless bugs which probably won't be fixed in the new MacOS either.

I guess my only hope left is to get a good price for my MBP and get a proper Windows Notebook. I hate Windows, but at least the ambition to improve is there.


I'm sorry but that is really a big pile of bullcrap. I am also seeing a lot of the developments with Apple critical, getting rid of the headphone jack on the iPhone and many other really bad decisions but Windows 10 is really an OS from hell and I will probably be staying on Windows 7 (which I have to use for some apps) forever. If anything I see myself being forced to migrate to linux one day. But this day has not come, yet.
 
In all fairness for Apple, I guess this release has to give the message very clearly to devs that they need to develop against certain frameworks and APIs as big big changes are coming (ie ARM Macs and Apple is going to bring forward its supported frameworks to ARM).

Regarding pure functionality - we all like new toys but if you just need high sierra to be a platform for running your apps:

  • Mojave is not adding anything radically new
  • I suspect that high Sierra will still be pretty widespread and supported by apps for the next few years.
  • Just to have a computer that’s 7-9 years old still supported is pretty amazing. That absolutely wouldn’t have happened ten years ago
  • I’m about to sell my late 2009 iMac and I was very surprised that high Sierra even supported it - 8 years of OS updates isn’t bad.

Yeah, it’s really because of what a giant leap forward Ivy and Sandy Bridge were. We’ve seen some yearly improvements but nothing like the transition from Core 2 Duo to Core i5 and i7. A 1999 Mac or PC in 2008 would’ve been completely useless but a late 2000s machine is still good enough for productivity and light photo/video editing (720-1080p) and that’s ridiculous! This is why most people who don’t create content or aren’t in school anymore can get by with a phone or tablet as their primary computing device. We reached a point around 2014-2015 where they pretty much do every basic task really well.

And these unsupported Macs will still keep working for a long time on an older OS X release. If browsers eventually drop support then browsing can be done via Bootcamp in Windows.
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How about the QUALITY of Spotlight results? Probably 50% of the time, I can type in something like "word" and it fails to show Microsoft Word as a result. Other times, it returns nothing at all. Mind baffling how inconsistent the results are with this critical search function.

This happens to me with Excel usually after updating it. The solution is to run the update again. Sometimes a .doc file may be the first hit but this usually goes away. I’ve found Spotlight to be pretty damn good and launch everything with.
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Anyone know why my MacBook Pro Mid 2011 was excluded from the upgrade? 32bit processor? Thanks for any input on this as I though it was still working fine, maybe Apple just excludes past 5 yrs?

No, the 2011 MBPs are all 64-bit of course! The problem is the GPUs. The integrated Intel HD3000 doesn’t support Metal. The Radeon 6490, 6750 and 6770 don’t support it either.

The 2012 non-retina MBP has the Intel HD4000 and GT650 which do support Metal. Basically Sandy Bridge (2nd gen Intel ) doesn’t support metal but Sandy Bridge (3rd gen) does.

I would keep that 2011 MBP on Sierra 10.12.6 or High Sierra 10.13.6 (when it comes out). Both are good enough and will be supported with security updates for 2-3 years. There is no need to run Mojave unless you have the latest hardware or really want the new features.
 
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I don't think we'll see "amazing innovations" in the world of desktop computing any more. And we don't need to. I want my computers to be reliable, polished experiences. What did you expect? Even phones are improving predictably. Next amazing innovation will be something that's not a PC or a phone. Also, honestly - I think people are throwing that word around too much and they often confuse it with "flashy".

As for Dark mode, it is a new coat of paint put on a modern design. I think macOS never looked as good. The fact that it's called "dark mode" and you're saying we already had that is like commenting a new artwork from a painter and saying "we already had paintings before. Nothing new here". It looks great. It gives a new look to a design set by OS X Yosemite. I don't want the dark mode we had back in the 90's, because that whole look is outdated. I want dark mode for this look. And that's what we got.

I want macOS to bring nice, quality of life improvements. And that's what Mojave brings. People are saying that it's one of the most stable Developer Previews they've seen. This is a really good sign. I want my Macs to work fast and reliable. And it adds some really useful functionality to the Mac. What did the last major Windows 10 update bring? Just one new big feature - Timeline. And it sucks, in my opinion.

Also, you're missing the fact that they are working on a way to make it easier for developers to make cross-platform apps. This is huge. Non-sandboxed apps in MAS? FaceTime for 32 people? New security features? These are all important things.


Mojave is fine. Sure, it's not groundbreaking - but, honestly, it seems to be quite a nice update.

We don't need a better desktop?
Oooookay.
I'm talking to a wall here, so have fun playing your phone and watch and let's just agree to disagree.
 
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I'm sorry but that is really a big pile of bullcrap. I am also seeing a lot of the developments with Apple critical, getting rid of the headphone jack on the iPhone and many other really bad decisions but Windows 10 is really an OS from hell and I will probably be staying on Windows 7 (which I have to use for some apps) forever. If anything I see myself being forced to migrate to linux one day. But this day has not come, yet.

Windows 10 isn't good, but isn't bad either. What I dislike the most is that it's redesigned to a certain level, but once you go into depth you all of the sudden hit UI from Windows 95 times. This is something you wouldn't encounter on a Mac system. But other than that, I actually don't have any gripes with it, the usability is on par with Mac all in all.

This hasn't been that way only a couple of years ago. Apple has piece by piece lost consistency out of it's sight, therefore compromising it's primary strength, usability. If I look at OSX nowadays, I see a huge amount of inconsistent keyboard shortcuts, inconsistent drag and drop behaviour, inconsistent touch mechanics (even in build in apps, like swipe to delete), unused force touch integration into system layer (this thing is capable of giving so much distinct feedback and yet the only thing utilised is the strong press for detail view - also with minor inconsistencies).
The Touch Bar is basically abandoned and not explored any further since Apple decided not to iterate anymore, even though tools like Touch Tool clearly show that there's potential for improvement.
Then there's a lot of bugs, that don't seem to be fixed at all. Preview displays pdfs and pngs with artefacts since a long time already, even though safari has no problem with them. FCPX has some really weird behaviour sometimes when it just can't fetch frames from the timeline anymore until I remake the whole project again (!!!). Touch Bar crashing occasionally, since it's release 2 years ago (!!!). The update policy of these products doesn't give me the impression, that Apple gives a single **** either.
And then there's all the hardware issues: mediocre battery life, keyboard failing, cheaping out on thermal grease, bad thermal design due to thinness. I look at this 3000$ expensive equipment and I simply don't see at all how it is even remotely worth that money. 1500... maybe 2000$ for the top of the line display.

Yes, you will encounter all these things in Windows as well, but then where's the point staying with Apple. With Windows I get a touch UI which actually IS useful, I get the freedom of choosing up to date hardware, I get a more open source oriented company culture, I get a more transparent relationship to the costumer... I get a mostly production oriented environment.
UX was all that kept me with Apple all the time. But if nowadays one of the key features is a dynamic desktop which I spend 10sec daily on, this is just a joke. It shows how far out of touch Apple is with the professional user base. This whole update to me seems to be rather targeted at consumers.

The iPad Pro on the other hand is a great product. And I think it proves even more, that Apple actually doesn't really want to keep the Desktop line alive. Just grab as much cash as possible with the minimum amount of investment required.
It's such a shame, I look at my 13" 2013 MBP and keep thinking how much of a better experience it was than my 15" 2017 MBP. Being roughly 1/3 the price...
 
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Any updates to the Notes.app? I'm a big fan of it and wonder if they'd added something like tags.
 
We don't need a better desktop?
Oooookay.
I'm talking to a wall here, so have fun playing your phone and watch and let's just agree to disagree.

You confused "we need polished and reliable" with "we don't need a better desktop". Polished and reliable IS better.

"Play with your phone and watch"? What's that supposed to mean? Anyone who does serious work on their Mac will tell you that we need better performance, less bugs and more stability rather than "new features". In fact, it's quite the oposite - the flashy "innovative" things you want belong on phones and watches, not on productivity devices such as Macs. The last thing we need is some experimental weird attempt to make Mac into something new just for the sake of being new.

People have established workflows on their Macs - they need reliability and iterative, quality of life improvements which Mojave brings. You want something shockingly new and OMGAMAZING - that's what the iPhone is for. Let Macs be Macs.
 
Yeah, it’s really because of what a giant leap forward Ivy and Sandy Bridge were. We’ve seen some yearly improvements but nothing like the transition from Core 2 Duo to Core i5 and i7. A 1999 Mac or PC in 2008 would’ve been completely useless but a late 2000s machine is still good enough for productivity and light photo/video editing (720-1080p) and that’s ridiculous! This is why most people who don’t create content or aren’t in school anymore can get by with a phone or tablet as their primary computing device. We reached a point around 2014-2015 where they pretty much do every basic task really well.

And these unsupported Macs will still keep working for a long time on an older OS X release. If browsers eventually drop support then browsing can be done via Bootcamp in Windows.
[doublepost=1528423400][/doublepost]

This happens to me with Excel usually after updating it. The solution is to run the update again. Sometimes a .doc file may be the first hit but this usually goes away. I’ve found Spotlight to be pretty damn good and launch everything with.
[doublepost=1528423915][/doublepost]

No, the 2011 MBPs are all 64-bit of course! The problem is the GPUs. The integrated Intel HD3000 doesn’t support Metal. The Radeon 6490, 6750 and 6770 don’t support it either.

The 2012 non-retina MBP has the Intel HD4000 and GT650 which do support Metal. Basically Sandy Bridge (2nd gen Intel ) doesn’t support metal but Sandy Bridge (3rd gen) does.

I would keep that 2011 MBP on Sierra 10.12.6 or High Sierra 10.13.6 (when it comes out). Both are good enough and will be supported with security updates for 2-3 years. There is no need to run Mojave unless you have the latest hardware or really want the new features.
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Yeah, it’s really because of what a giant leap forward Ivy and Sandy Bridge were. We’ve seen some yearly improvements but nothing like the transition from Core 2 Duo to Core i5 and i7. A 1999 Mac or PC in 2008 would’ve been completely useless but a late 2000s machine is still good enough for productivity and light photo/video editing (720-1080p) and that’s ridiculous! This is why most people who don’t create content or aren’t in school anymore can get by with a phone or tablet as their primary computing device. We reached a point around 2014-2015 where they pretty much do every basic task really well.

And these unsupported Macs will still keep working for a long time on an older OS X release. If browsers eventually drop support then browsing can be done via Bootcamp in Windows.
[doublepost=1528423400][/doublepost]

This happens to me with Excel usually after updating it. The solution is to run the update again. Sometimes a .doc file may be the first hit but this usually goes away. I’ve found Spotlight to be pretty damn good and launch everything with.
[doublepost=1528423915][/doublepost]

No, the 2011 MBPs are all 64-bit of course! The problem is the GPUs. The integrated Intel HD3000 doesn’t support Metal. The Radeon 6490, 6750 and 6770 don’t support it either.

The 2012 non-retina MBP has the Intel HD4000 and GT650 which do support Metal. Basically Sandy Bridge (2nd gen Intel ) doesn’t support metal but Sandy Bridge (3rd gen) does.

I would keep that 2011 MBP on Sierra 10.12.6 or High Sierra 10.13.6 (when it comes out). Both are good enough and will be supported with security updates for 2-3 years. There is no need to run Mojave unless you have the latest hardware or really want the new features.
[doublepost=1528461387][/doublepost]Thanks all for the reply, I upgraded the main hd to ssd and switched out the cd tray for another hd, upgraded to 16gb memory and it runs great, so will keep it as you said I don’t need the latest Mojave update for my photo editing and Xcode development.
Thanks
 
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Mojave looks great and judging from the feel I got from the keynote it seems it's going to be a Snow Leopard-like OS, a lot of bug fixes, increased stability and optimized performance.

But what about users of unsupported Mac minis and MacBook Airs? Yes, our older computers will still keep running with the older operating systems, but at some point the security risks will become too high to continue using our old computers.

I have a mid-2010 Mac mini, upgraded to 16GB RAM and a small 120GB SSD. I can understand that Apple dropped support for it in Mojave because of its old CPU and especially its old GPU.


However, I'm not going to waste money on a 2014 Mac mini (prices in Canada are $600, $850 and $1200 for the three basic models of Mac mini) since paying that much for a dual-core computer in 2018 is insane. Even if I wanted to, I would need to buy the mid-range Mac mini since the entry-level model has no SSD option, another $240 to get the same 16GB I have in my mid-2010 Mac mini and another $240 to get the 256GB SSD option to have an SSD like my old mid-2010. That's $1330 for a dual-core desktop computer in 2018.

Instead of wasting that much money on a small desktop computer, let's say I want to switch to a laptop. The MacBook is not an option at $1730. I also hate the no-travel butterfly keyboard and I think a single USB-C port is not enough. Even if the keyboard and USB-C port were not a problem, upgrading from the m3 to the i5 is another $120 and the 16GB RAM upgrade is another $240 so that means the MacBook option is $2090. The various MacBook Pro being even more expensive and also stuck with the butterfly keyboard, this limits my choice to the MacBook Air.

I wouldn't mind buying a MacBook Air because it has a great keyboard, has regular USB 3.0 ports and is thin enough in my opinion. But the MacBook Air has an old CPU from three (four?) generations ago that is also only dual-core, has a display that is not even HD (which I could tolerate but a TN display in 2018 is a joke), it doesn't even have a 16GB RAM option and is still being sold at the same price as when it was introduced even though it uses a CPU from half a decade ago (a small 100MHz increase does not count as a new processor). Even if dual-core and 8GB were enough, the only lower-cost option would have been the 11" MBA but Apple discontinued it for some reason.


So for now, my only hope and probably the hope of a lot of users is to wait for this "low-cost MacBook Air replacement" we keep hearing about, or an actual upgrade to the Mac mini with an entry-level Mac mini that can easily run macOS Mojave. That means a modern processor (ideally quad-core) with a minimum of 8GB RAM and no more mechanical hard drives. A small and fast 120GB SSD is better than a slow 500GB HDD.

TL;DR Apple has no upgrade path for low-end users and is forcing us to switch to Windows or Linux even if we don't want to. And then we get Tim saying things like "Macs are not for the rich". Right.
 
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