Hard data on Mac reliability?

[LarTeROn]

Where did you hear that this was a widespread problem? Last time I heard about production issues with capacitors on a Mac was on iMacs c. 20 years ago.

TPS62180 is famous for failing. The chip quality has improved but the shoddy design is still there in the M4. One fail and the whole thing goes with it.

If that wasn't enough, I live in a very humid environment out of spec, this in addition to poor quality chip history blowing from no external factors, humidity also invalidates warranty returns. (though Apple have been caught lying about liquid damage anyway).
This means I can't sit outside and use the Macbook. I have to make sure I'm sitting inside with air-conditioning.

I also need connectivity for the backup to work. I don't have access to broadband in central Hong Kong because all the connections are full, so I have to backup over the cell network, and this reduces what I backup in reality. I tend to only backup at night. Instant backup would lag the connection. Perhaps I need to tape an SSD to the laptop lid...?!

Or... run an M4 mini, modded with the SSD upgrade at home and remotely connect through to that?!

If you do the barest bit of searching, you'll see that Apple frequently tops surveys of reliability. They are miles more reliable than "cheaper brands". But even with a 3% failure rate: that's no consolation if you have one of the Friday afternoon units.



Files without a backup are waiting to be lost. It doesn't matter how reliable the computer is: you could overwrite the file or delete it, and without a backup: it's gone. It could get stolen, or water damaged.

Relying on hardware recovery after it's gone wrong is .. like relying on the hospital to mend you after the car crash. (In your un-serviced car, with no seat belt.)

True, but isn't this still WhatAboutIsm?

The design is shoddy. I'm making a lot of concessions to keep MacOS.

 

[hovscorpion12]

This may not apply to the m4 Minis and Mac Studios, which DO have "removable" SSDs.
But for MacBooks and MacBook Pros...the drive isn't readily "replaceable"...

Not sure where you read that from, but only the Mac Pro supports removable SSD. No other Mac supports removable SSDs.

To correct the statement, ONLY the Mac Pro that cost $7,000 supports removable storage.

 

[chrfr]

Not sure where you read that from, but only the Mac Pro supports removable SSD. No other Mac supports removable SSDs.

To correct the statement, ONLY the Mac Pro that cost $7,000 supports removable storage.

The storage in the M4/M4 Pro mini and all Mac Studio models is on removable cards, although these replacement parts are not sold by Apple aside from service parts. Third parties do sell storage upgrades for the M4 minis, however.

 

[benwiggy]

True, but isn't this still WhatAboutIsm?

The design is shoddy. I'm making a lot of concessions to keep MacOS.

"Whataboutism" is saying "Ignore these problems because other things have problems too". I'm not doing that.

If you have data that makes you think Macs are shoddy, then don't buy one.

 

[dmccloud]

It sounds like I'll have to improve my backup substantially if I'm going to get an M4.

I'm actually very close to Schenzen, CN, so it's very easy for me to get cheap, low level repairs.
But if capacitors are still blowing up and taking both the logic board and all the data on the SSD, that seriously puts me off buying a Mac. My 2015 Mac doesn't have this problem. Cheaper brands don't have this problem. I was hoping the M4 would have got past this after the M2 and dustgate ribbon fiasco.

We get very humid conditions here: 95%+ swimming pool-like dripping off the walls. Perhaps that could be a risk factor. I don't want to have to worry about blowing up my computer because the air conditioning hadn't sucked the humidity down yet. It's so precarious. This might be why these failures are so unpredictable.

But I very much appreciate the actual software and MacOS, so I need to get better data on this somehow.

Modern Macs use tantalum capacitors, which do not swell or blow up. That can be an issue with older Macs - especially those running either 68K or PPC processors, but not with current Macs.

 

[LarTeROn]

Modern Macs use tantalum capacitors, which do not swell or blow up. That can be an issue with older Macs - especially those running either 68K or PPC processors, but not with current Macs.

The poor quality TPS62180 batch was on the m1 and I think m2 and m3. That was problem 1 for reputation.

The poor design whereby the circuits are unprotected are present on all macs through m1 to m4. The problem is not present on Intel. This is the ongoing problem.

Even a tantalum capacitor cannot withstand a short straight to ground and full voltage.

 

[DCIFRTHS]

The poor quality TPS62180 batch was on the m1 and I think m2 and m3. That was problem 1 for reputation.

Can this be confirmed on the M2 and M3?

The poor design whereby the circuits are unprotected are present on all macs through m1 to m4. The problem is not present on Intel. This is the ongoing problem.

Even a tantalum capacitor cannot withstand a short straight to ground and full voltage.

What would cause a short straight to ground and full voltage? Failure of other parts? Power surges?

These are legit questions. I'm not being argumentative.

 

[LarTeROn]

Can this be confirmed on the M2 and M3?


What would cause a short straight to ground and full voltage? Failure of other parts? Power surges?

These are legit questions. I'm not being argumentative.

You're very welcome. Rossmann says that he see units coming in due to dust build up, but I'd expect humidity is more of a problem.

This happened to me: I was storing my electronics in a backroom. Since it wasn't occupied we rarely put the a/c on. A new neighbour moved in downstairs and started using the a/c. This cold conducted to the floor in the backroom and into the drawer where the electronics were. I never noticed that the humidity was high. This is the tropics and it's normal here. That combination of cold condensing onto metal blew so many electronics. I lost laptops, hard drives, SSDs, even just a simple poorly sealed phone charger blew up before I figured it out.

The reason why I think this is a factor is because I remember reading that repair shops are getting less Macbook Airs failing than Macbook pros and the air is slightly more airtight. That said, data is sparse and I'm clutching at straws trying to understand this, hence this thread fishing for more info.

 

[maflynn]

Not sure where you read that from, but only the Mac Pro supports removable SSD. No other Mac supports removable SSDs.

Actually the current Mac Studios and Mac minis can have their storage upgraded. ITs not a sanctioned upgrade from apple, but the NAND chips are on a daughter card, you can buy these daughter cards and upgrade your Mini or Studio. I contemplated this personally, but opening up your mac and possibly doing damage is a risk I wasn't willing to take

 

[Alameda]

I've noticed that Apple have chosen to make the system dependent on the SSD in order to boot with the newer M series Macbooks.

Instead of rumours, I'd like to:

1) know how reliable Macbooks actually are.
2) confirm that this new design prevents data recovery, unless you can get the whole laptop to a very low level and expensive recovery centre -- how more difficult does this vulnerability of shorting to ground make data recovery, and is there a way to reduce the chances of failure?

Don't we have any data on how Macbooks fail? We shouldn't be reliant on Apple for this.

I've noticed that Apple have chosen to make the system dependent on the SSD in order to boot with the newer M series Macbooks.

Instead of rumours, I'd like to:

1) know how reliable Macbooks actually are.
2) confirm that this new design prevents data recovery, unless you can get the whole laptop to a very low level and expensive recovery centre -- how more difficult does this vulnerability of shorting to ground make data recovery, and is there a way to reduce the chances of failure?

Don't we have any data on how Macbooks fail? We shouldn't be reliant on Apple for this.

I think you don’t understand the question you’ve asked. Your question pertains to data reliability, not hardware reliability.

Your thoughts are that hardware reliability is the leading cause of data loss. It is not. Hardware theft is the leading cause of data loss, by far.

We know anecdotally that Macs are highly reliable. You can ascertain this by asking users here how many of them have suffered a failure from the internal SSD failing. That number will be very low.

Macs ship with the APFS file system, which encrypts all data on the drive. This is why enabling FileVault takes just a few seconds… the data is already encrypted. But it also means the SSD is essentially unrecoverable.

TLDR: You must back up your Mac. Ideally, use a 3-2-1 strategy which keeps a backup off of your premises, because a fire or a thief will take all of your hardware, not just the Mac. This is true of any computing system.

 

[Bungaree.Chubbins]

I think you don’t understand the question you’ve asked. Your question pertains to data reliability, not hardware reliability.

Your thoughts are that hardware reliability is the leading cause of data loss. It is not. Hardware theft is the leading cause of data loss, by far.

We know anecdotally that Macs are highly reliable. You can ascertain this by asking users here how many of them have suffered a failure from the internal SSD failing. That number will be very low.

Macs ship with the APFS file system, which encrypts all data on the drive. This is why enabling FileVault takes just a few seconds… the data is already encrypted. But it also means the SSD is essentially unrecoverable.

TLDR: You must back up your Mac. Ideally, use a 3-2-1 strategy which keeps a backup off of your premises, because a fire or a thief will take all of your hardware, not just the Mac. This is true of any computing system.

To illustrate your point, it took ten years of heavy use for the SSD to fail in my MacBook Air. I'm not worried about my M3 Pro, I have AppleCare and backups.

 

[nathansz]

any computer can irrecoverably fail at any time

just back up your data

 

[XboxEvolved]

Plenty of info out there on MacBooks, iMacs, etc being the most reliable in each category from the likes of Consumer Reports, PC Magazine, etc. I used my used Mac from 2001 that I bought in 2003 until 2010. A 2010 Mac I used until 2018. My current Mac who the hell knows when I quit using it. Ask anyone in here, the majority of them will say the M1 or above is by far the best Mac they've ever had. Even if they had a PowerPC back in the day.

 

[dmccloud]

Not sure where you read that from, but only the Mac Pro supports removable SSD. No other Mac supports removable SSDs.

To correct the statement, ONLY the Mac Pro that cost $7,000 supports removable storage.

The M4 Mac Mini does have upgradeable storage as the SSDs are on removable cards - it's just not an official Apple sanctioned upgrade. Additionally, you need a second Mac to DFU restore the Mini after the upgrade, and the SSD form factor is different between the M4 and M4 Pro variants. What is not known is how reliable those drop-in replacements are compared to what ships preinstalled from Apple in the Mini.

 

[Basic75]

Never rely on a single Time Machine backup alone.

Never rely on a single backup alone.

 

[LarTeROn]

I think you don’t understand the question you’ve asked. Your question pertains to data reliability, not hardware reliability.

Your thoughts are that hardware reliability is the leading cause of data loss. It is not. Hardware theft is the leading cause of data loss, by far.

We know anecdotally that Macs are highly reliable. You can ascertain this by asking users here how many of them have suffered a failure from the internal SSD failing. That number will be very low.

Macs ship with the APFS file system, which encrypts all data on the drive. This is why enabling FileVault takes just a few seconds… the data is already encrypted. But it also means the SSD is essentially unrecoverable.

TLDR: You must back up your Mac. Ideally, use a 3-2-1 strategy which keeps a backup off of your premises, because a fire or a thief will take all of your hardware, not just the Mac. This is true of any computing system.

But I already have another discussion going about cryptolocker proof backup. I've asked people how to setup incremental, read-only backup, but I've had no answers on how to do that automatically. It seems people say one thing, and do another.

This thread is not about that though: It's about an additional layer of safety.

In health and safety training there's a concept about layers of safety. Often when people think they're safe, they'll neglect previous safety layers.

 

[LarTeROn]

Plenty of info out there on MacBooks, iMacs, etc being the most reliable in each category from the likes of Consumer Reports, PC Magazine, etc. I used my used Mac from 2001 that I bought in 2003 until 2010. A 2010 Mac I used until 2018. My current Mac who the hell knows when I quit using it. Ask anyone in here, the majority of them will say the M1 or above is by far the best Mac they've ever had. Even if they had a PowerPC back in the day.

Those are all old Macs which were better built. Is the M1 as reliable as Intel? We haven't got much evidence.

 

[Bungaree.Chubbins]

Those are all old Macs which were better built. Is the M1 as reliable as Intel? We haven't got much evidence.

I haven't been able to find any evidence of M1 machines starting to drop off yet, not that you'd expect them to start dying off at 5 years old, but it they were going to be unreliable, there'd be signs by now.

 

[LarTeROn]

I haven't been able to find any evidence of M1 machines starting to drop off yet, not that you'd expect them to start dying off at 5 years old, but it they were going to be unreliable, there'd be signs by now.

My conclusions from this thread are:

1) Rossman's comments about SSD write wear are overblown.

2) We can't agree with his statement that M1 Macs are failing in a worse way than industry standards. It just looks that way to him because he sees the same fault all day, every day, and unlike with Intel there's a lot less he can do to repair them.

3) However, we also don't have evidence to show that M1 Macs are reliable. We need to compare to other laptops and make a fair comparison. This is why I started the thread, but I still don't have the data to support this idea. It looks like they're as reliable as anything else, but I still just don't have proper information.

#1 was useful. #2 and #3 are still a bit hazy.

Personally, I just really prefer the removable SSD in the MacMini, but I think I'm biased and really just need to transfer that (misplaced?) warm, reassuring feeling I get from swappable drives to a reassuring feeling I should be getting from write only backup.

 

[Bungaree.Chubbins]

My conclusions from this thread are:

1) Rossman's comments about SSD write wear are overblown.

2) We can't agree with his statement that M1 Macs are failing in a worse way than industry standards. It just looks that way to him because he sees the same fault all day, every day, and unlike with Intel there's a lot less he can do to repair them.

3) However, we also don't have evidence to show that M1 Macs are reliable. We need to compare to other laptops and make a fair comparison. This is why I started the thread, but I still don't have the data to support this idea. It looks like they're as reliable as anything else, but I still just don't have proper information.

#1 was useful. #2 and #3 are still a bit hazy.

Personally, I just really prefer the removable SSD in the MacMini, but I think I'm biased and really just need to transfer that (misplaced?) warm, reassuring feeling I get from swappable drives to a reassuring feeling I should be getting from write only backup.

While it is too early for pronouncements, current indications are good.

Soldered on SSDs don’t make me feel heaps happy either. Again, while indications are good and that write wear is a complete non-issue, there’s some comfort in the knowledge that if there was a freak issue, and the SSD dies, you can swap it out.

 

[XboxEvolved]

Well really at least since the Jobs return era, the biggest problems seemed to stem from PowerPCs at the end of their run, and Intels at the end of their run. I had a 2017 MBP that I gave to my daughter once I got my M1 and a lot of surprising problems with them other than the fact that just like most Intel MBPs, you could fry an egg on it. Apple Silicon is of course based off of ARM, which Apple has contributed quite a bit over the decades to it's formation, and I'd be willing to bet a lot of us here have old iPhone 4's or even older that power on and work just perfect fine (albeit slower, awful battery), so I think that is probably a good benchmark on the quality.

Now will that continue with ARM? I'd venture to guess no. Apple seems to switch architectures every 10-15 years and I can see Apple inventing a new architecture other than ARM that would address bottlenecks they could have in things such as wearables in the future. Better yet, it gives Apple even tighter control over the design, whereas they already have the tightest control I think Apple has ever had in their history.

 

[hobowankenobi]

Those are all old Macs which were better built. Is the M1 as reliable as Intel? We haven't got much evidence.

While not a scientific study, and there are no specific reports...the 3000 Macs at work tell me that yes, the M series are the most reliable Macs overall in the last 20ish years. Intels were not bad, but we saw more problems, failures, and shorter useful lives overall, though only by a small margin.

I am aware of exactly one M series that failed with for no known reason (no visible damage, abuse, or spills), where it would not boot, no way to perform data recovery, and the logic board was replaced. Could have been the storage or something else. No full diagnosis to know.

 

[avro707]

I've noticed that Apple have chosen to make the system dependent on the SSD in order to boot with the newer M series Macbooks.

Even 2019 Mac Pro is this way, although we can at least add other internal storage. But you need the internal “SSD” (aka NAND).

These machines aren’t failing too frequently.

 

[Alameda]

My conclusions from this thread are:

1) Rossman's comments about SSD write wear are overblown.

2) We can't agree with his statement that M1 Macs are failing in a worse way than industry standards. It just looks that way to him because he sees the same fault all day, every day, and unlike with Intel there's a lot less he can do to repair them.

3) However, we also don't have evidence to show that M1 Macs are reliable. We need to compare to other laptops and make a fair comparison. This is why I started the thread, but I still don't have the data to support this idea. It looks like they're as reliable as anything else, but I still just don't have proper information.

#1 was useful. #2 and #3 are still a bit hazy.

Personally, I just really prefer the removable SSD in the MacMini, but I think I'm biased and really just need to transfer that (misplaced?) warm, reassuring feeling I get from swappable drives to a reassuring feeling I should be getting from write only backup.

In my experience, Macs are not as reliable as anything else… they are more reliable than everything else. I’ve had plenty of Dell and Lenovo laptops break, but I’ve never broken a Mac.