Has anyone played with Virtual PC 2007 lately?

[mzs.112000]

...been a VPC user since 2.1(w/Windows 95), as far as I know Linux support was ditched after VPC6 but Puppylinux is the last usable distro.
On VirtualPC 2007 you can install Linux, I have done it(this was done using the Windows XP version of VPC.
As for running Linux on VirtualPC for Mac, IDK as for any of my Linux needs on a Mac I just use Ubuntu(which was on my Powerbook, regular laptop(runs Ubuntu and Chromium OS), Hackintosh, and my Android Phone).

 

[happyfrappy]

I never said Linux wasn't supported on VirtualPC 2007, my post was about VirtualPC on the Macintosh which is 6.0/6.1/7... Connectix last supported Red Hat Linux 7.0 but after Microsoft bought Connectix they yanked all official support for non-Windows on the Mac version with 6.1. Any Linux distro on the Mac which can't use OpenGL/GPU acceleration such as Ubuntu with Unity will either have an error midway into the boot process or will crash VPC 6/7.

Windows version of VirtualPC was overhauled to enable VT-x, hardware accelerated graphics, etc. Difference between Mac & Windows versions is massive.
VirtualPC for XP Mode on Windows 7 had a very minimal additions support ISO/disk file.

 

[Dronecatcher]

VPC 6/7 you can typically clock between 400-800Mhz

How are you getting this performance? What Mac, OS and Windows version?

I've used VPC 4 on OS9, VPC 5 & 7 on OS X running XP, 2000, 98 & 95. Even on my Dual 2.3 G5, any program with a minimum requirement above 166Mhz craps out - my exception so far being Corel Draw 10 which is pretty usable and that requires a 200Mhz.

 

[happyfrappy]

Never used VirtualPC for Windows past 2004 much on a PC since my old Athlon 64 didn't support VT-x & motherboard only supported 2GB of RAM so I just used it for web browser testing as a webmaster and nothing more. VirtualBox was much smoother since they developed the additions files which Connectix/Microsoft licensed, support for Linux machines like VMWare Player was solid so using WINE within Linux to use older versions of Internet Explorer was useful/faster. On my Thinkpad I stuck with VirtualBox as I need serial port support with my dock to use within Linux.

Only actively used Win95/Win98SE/WinXP on VirtualPC for Mac, while I do have two NT4 licenses never really found much benefit as drag & drop was poor from 2.1 to 3.0--didn't help VPC emulated a very basic graphics chipset(1-2MB Cirrus Logic) until VPC4 via S3 graphics--OS/2 Warp 3.0 & 4.0 ran much faster in VPC than NT which is still amusing considering IBM killed it then re-licensed the source to eCommStation.

VirtualPC 6.1+ you can push 400-800Mhz with light/non-FPU tasks on any 1 Ghz G4/1.6 Ghz G5 Mac running Win98/ME/NT4--if you use a PowerBook G4 stick to using an external FW400/800 HDD as the stock 4200 RPM HDD holds you back quite a bit. My old 15" back in 2003-early 2004 I often relied upon a FW400 HDD, my 12" PB has a WD Scorpio Blue 5400 RPM so it doesn't suffer much. You won't push sustained CPU speeds on PowerPC, the more FPU/MMX calls the slower VirtualPC on a Mac will become as it needs to go from PPC to x86 back to PPC translation(certain G4 Towers with more CPU cache have a slight boost here)--if you've ever used Sheepshaver the lack of a FPU helps give it a speed boost but compatibility goes out the window/crashes if something tries to crunch harder. Non FPU/CPU cache based tasks you can easily peak into Celeron 600-800Mhz-ish territory, realistic tasks ex: Photoshop Elements 3.0 batch convert to HTML album or MS Publisher export to PDF/HTML you'll sit closer to Pentium II 400-500-ish speeds. Running Corel Draw 10 under VPC is nuts as memory headroom is very limited. On PPC you're better off using GIMP & Inkscape for serious work.

Win2k/XP you need to ditch all the eye candy including XP's Playskool theme(no wallpaper, shadows, animations, custom themes, etc), for non-FPU tasks you really fall into Celeron-ish territory--gaming wise DirectX(Win9x-XP), Triple Play 98, NHL 2000, Sid Meier's Gettysburg, Sim City 3000, Midtown Madness, Sub Command, Civilization III & Fleet Command are the only games I tried which worked at playable speeds. While during the peak of Vista marketing/developer giveaways, I never wasted a Vista license on VPC but was told by a local MS rep SP2 can run smoothly on v7+G5(my former university never deployed Vista, only XP on their dual G5s)... on a PC you'd need 2007 for VT-x.

I don't actively use VPC on my PPC unless I need MS Publisher or Print Artist 4.0 from Win9x era--XP just collects dust unless I need USB support with an old device. Emulated speeds vary based on OS, tweaks, RAM/VRAM settings and HDD(speed/cache). Just easier to run Parallels/VirtualBox on a supported Mac/PC and let the PPC Mac remote desktop to XP Pro/Vista Business.

 

[Dronecatcher]

Running Corel Draw 10 under VPC is nuts as memory headroom is very limited.

Don't worry - I don't work in Corel on VPC, I just use it to open and convert .cdr files that Illustrator fails to import correctly.

No matter what Windows OS I use, I always run every UI mod to trim it down and get it running as efficiently as possible but I still can't get above around 133Mhz speeds.
I do find results are variable though - I always use a reference .avi file for new installations as a quick test - I can play it fine on my 667Mhz Powerbook under OS9 running 98SE through VPC4 but it wont play on the G5 on VPC7 in 98SE or 2000.

Luckily, the things I do actually use VPC for are pretty low end and work fine but it'd be nice if I could get the performance you've been getting.

 

[happyfrappy]

Performance of VPC is fairly unpredictable, it can run blazing fast then as slow as a 486 depending upon the software being used. My parents had a Pentium II 266(128 MB RAM) then a Pentium III 550Mhz(384 MB) so I had a sense of responsive feel of Win9x and XP with some programs/games. VirtualPC 6.1 in my experience had been fairly similar to an actual PC yet higher burst speeds are very Celeron-ish as I had a few classmates who built their gaming PCs on such.

Playing video is just as demanding as a game in some cases depending upon the codec and resolution, if the gap is that huge on v7 I'd suggest installing a codec pack for Win98SE/Win2k/XP to hope for some kind of improvement--my former university had dual G5s which handled it extremely well but they ran it off a dedicated 2nd HDD for OS images to avoid disk fragmentation. On the old family iMac G3, I partitioned the drive so the disk file of Win95 & Win98 could be defragmented every so often via Norton Speed Disk--if the drive went past 10% it would run slower. Not sure how OS X handles fragmentation, campus IT said you'd have to leave a Panther/Tiger Mac on at night for the automated Cron jobs to kick in at 3-5am... I always kept my VPC file disks on a spare external for manual defrag.

 

[happyfrappy]

I found my MSDN box of CDs, Windows 2000 SP4, RAM setting: 256 MB & VRAM: 4MB(lowest).

Attached a screenshot of CPU-Z while alt-tabbed out of SimCity 3000 on VirtualPC 6.1, speed wise it hovered in ~700Mhz range while SC3000 was running. Windows 2000 idles at ~290-300Mhz.
Mac specs: 2004 12" PowerBook G4, 1.33Ghz, 1.25GB RAM, Combo Drive(DVD-ROM/CDRW), 160GB Western Digital Scorpio Blue 5400 8mb cache. (wasn't using an external FW400 HDD)

 

[Dronecatcher]

Playing video is just as demanding as a game in some cases depending upon the codec and resolution, if the gap is that huge on v7 I'd suggest installing a codec pack for Win98SE/Win2k/XP

Sorry, I was a bit vague about the .avi file - it's specifically made using older Cinepak codec and low bitrate so it can be played on 486 class hardware - it does play on VPC7 but stutters continually and has broken audio, so the codec's there but the performance isn't.

Clearly there's something not right with my installs, I too have 2000 SP4 but couldn't even get CPU-Z to run - I tried three versions but they all launch then die. Tried on XP too same result. I'm going to source a new copy of VPC7.

I too have a 12" 1.33 PB and with a 7200 drive, so I might do an install on that to see if that config has the 'magic' to get VPC working at full tilt.

 

[Altemose]

I'm going to source a new copy of VPC7.

PM me if you are interested in a new copy.

 

[Dronecatcher]

PM me if you are interested in a new copy.

Thanks for the offer - I'd already downloaded it from macintoshgarden this morning...tried three different installs already. I'm done - there's no way I can get above 133Mhz performance....which is okay though cos that's all I need

 

[mzs.112000]

Thanks for the offer - I'd already downloaded it from macintoshgarden this morning...tried three different installs already. I'm done - there's no way I can get above 133Mhz performance....which is okay though cos that's all I need

What all do you use that 133Mhz VM for?
A lot of things like networking, USB can be disabled, and setting VPC to run at a lower resolution can give some performance increases, but I don't know what you are using your's for, although no matter what, running VPC and the OS(if small enough) from a ramdisk can increase performance(as long as no other programs are running), but you probably already know that.
Also disabling any transparency, 3D effects, and unused system services(bluetooth, etc) in OS X might give a small performance increase(less CPU cycles used by OS X =! more CPU cycles available to VPC).

EDIT: Disabling sound can also help

 

[Dronecatcher]

What all do you use that 133Mhz VM for?

I use VPC for Corel Draw when it's needed, an image converter for a 'vintage' 90s digital camera (Kodak DC120) and a few mod tracker audio programs - it works fine for those.
But there's a few other programs I'd like to use for fun but can't as they require a 166+Mhz and they just won't work.

As for OSX, I have every optimisation going all the time - every little helps.

 

[mzs.112000]

I use VPC for Corel Draw when it's needed, an image converter for a 'vintage' 90s digital camera (Kodak DC120) and a few mod tracker audio programs - it works fine for those.
But there's a few other programs I'd like to use for fun but can't as they require a 166+Mhz and they just won't work.

As for OSX, I have every optimisation going all the time - every little helps.

What is your current VPC configuration, I will see what I can do to find a way to make it faster.

 

[Dronecatcher]

What is your current VPC configuration, I will see what I can do to find a way to make it faster.

On G5: OSX 10.5.8, VPC7, Windows 2000 SP4, Dynamic sizing HD, 256MB RAM, 4MB VRAM, VGA, 256 colours
On 1.33 PB: OSX 10.4.11, VPC7, Windows 2000 SP4, 2Gb HD, 128MB RAM, 4MB VRAM, VGA, 256 colours
Both configs have USB and Networking disabled.

 

[mzs.112000]

On G5: OSX 10.5.8, VPC7, Windows 2000 SP4, Dynamic sizing HD, 256MB RAM, 4MB VRAM, VGA, 256 colours
On 1.33 PB: OSX 10.4.11, VPC7, Windows 2000 SP4, 2Gb HD, 128MB RAM, 4MB VRAM, VGA, 256 colours
Both configs have USB and Networking disabled.

On the G4, try using VPC 6, by some reports it is faster than 7 on a G4 machine, as for the G5, try using Q, its graphics are OpenGL accelerated and should be faster but I don't know for sure if it will be better in you'r use case.

 

[Altemose]

Thanks for the offer - I'd already downloaded it from macintoshgarden this morning...tried three different installs already. I'm done - there's no way I can get above 133Mhz performance....which is okay though cos that's all I need

I was going to say I had a copy of 7.0.1.

 

[happyfrappy]

You can download the 7.0.1 updater from Microsoft unless the SN was blacklisted. Speed gap between 7 vs 6.1 shouldn't be that drastic.
If CPU-Z can't run you may need one or more of the optional updates related to dotnet & some programs need the display set at thousands. A common headache in using VPC is you *may* need to reinstall the additions after running Windows Update as sometimes the driver(s) get unloaded from startup--this happened to me on WinXP after the SP3 update.

On my Macs I never disabled networking, USB or sound but I did disable folder share as it creates some slow down issues as Windows 2000/XP needs to refresh/thumbnail cache the folder & chokes on the DS_Store index files of OS X--I always used Dropbox, OneDrive(via IE/Firefox) or a USB flash drive.

 

[Dronecatcher]

You can download the 7.0.1 updater from Microsoft

I'm on version 7.0.3 already so no worries there. As default, I don't allow a shared folder as I use drag and drop between Windows and OSX - that also keeps me alert as to if additions are still working.
I have .NET framework installed and updated DirectX - usually an installer grumbles when a vital component is missing.
Although CPU-Z wont work, I did use Geekbench and that reports a 530Mhz CPU - so hardware tools and benchmarks are clearly fooled and not representative.

Have you had any software running that has a minimum requirement near to the speeds you mention?
You mentioned Simcity 3000 but I think that only needs a 166?

 

[Dronecatcher]

On the G4, try using VPC 6, by some reports it is faster than 7 on a G4 machine, as for the G5, try using Q, its graphics are OpenGL accelerated and should be faster but I don't know for sure if it will be better in you'r use case.

I'll give Q a shot and look into VPC 6 later as that'll mean setting everything up again.

 

[Dronecatcher]

for the G5, try using Q

Q took about 3 times longer than VPC to install Win 2000 and froze before it finished. I'll stick with VPC.

 

[happyfrappy]

I have .NET framework installed and updated DirectX - usually an installer grumbles when a vital component is missing.
Although CPU-Z wont work, I did use Geekbench and that reports a 530Mhz CPU - so hardware tools and benchmarks are clearly fooled and not representative.

Have you had any software running that has a minimum requirement near to the speeds you mention?
You mentioned Simcity 3000 but I think that only needs a 166?

If you've managed to get Geekbench to hit 530Mhz chances are that is as much FPU power it can realistically push. SimCity 3000 is a good measurement as larger city population/building density required nearly a Pentium II 233 and Windows XP after SP3 needs at least a Pentium II 300 Mhz. If you're trying to push VPC "freely", try ripping a CD in different formats with iTunes for Windows.

I don't have any programs/games that require more than a Pentium II 266, almost everything after 2002 required a Pentium III or a 16/32MB GPU with DirectX 8c support. Had a Mac from 1999 to 2007 so I have a huge gap of being Windowsless, I doubt MS Office 2010, Flight Simulator X or Civilization IV works under VPC.

 

[Dronecatcher]

If you're trying to push VPC "freely", try ripping a CD in different formats with iTunes for Windows.

I've been more than happy with VPC for what I used it for, it's just that after your posts talking of higher performance, I've tried more demanding apps and wondered why they were failing. I think it's more of a subjective thing rather than hard facts - how it seems to perform.
For the record, these are the apps that failed, they're both audio programs - they installed and opened but fall apart as soon as I try to play anything:

Madtracker 2.6.1 system req. 166Mhz, 32Mb RAM
Sonic Foundry Acid Pro 4 system req. 300Mhz, 64Mb RAM

 

[happyfrappy]

I've been more than happy with VPC for what I used it for, it's just that after your posts talking of higher performance, I've tried more demanding apps and wondered why they were failing. I think it's more of a subjective thing rather than hard facts - how it seems to perform.

Running audio software under VPC wasn't supported, Pro Tools "Free" for example does some low-level CPU specific stuff which is unsupported under VPC and even Classic compatibility layer on OS X. There used to be a long list of compatibility/issues on Macintouch and MacWindows: http://www.macwindows.com/VPC6.html

There is a big difference of running games, home designer & office software vs audio/video software which needs hardware level emulation of not just a CPU but also audio chipset/motherboard features. The only two games I found in a stack of discs which are Pentium II 266/300 would be Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator 2(Pacific) and Flight Simulator 2002... they aren't very taxing on FPU calculations or emulated graphics.

Back in 2003 I bought VirtualPC 6 with WinXP Pro for work reasons, anything beyond that was just out of boredom or testing reasons. Most PPC owners just bought VirtualPC to support Connectix similar to how some of us support CrossOver as it helps WINE development.

 

[Dronecatcher]

Running audio software under VPC wasn't supported

Maybe but I run Modplug Tracker, which is virtually the same as Madtracker but has a lower hardware requirement and that runs great. My understanding is that VPC has Soundblaster Pro compatibility, so that's some degree of audio horsepower.
As a side note, I seem to get that same performance from any machine - the apps that play on the G5 also play on my 667 Powerbook and 500 iMac.
Looking at these screenshots I posted on earlier threads, even my G3 iMac seems to think it's a 400Mhz according to DirectX benchmarks!

 

[happyfrappy]

VPC 4+ always showed 300-400Mhz "rated" speed from Connectix's dynamic CPU/FPU emulation in DirectX, this is only showing you're obsessed with numbers than understanding limitations of the hardware emulation Connectix/Microsoft used. VPC 1-2.x shows in DirectX as a Pentium 133/166, VPC 3 displays 166MMX, etc. Less FPU usage based software= faster CPU emulation is fairly easy to understand of how it influences VPC.

The bigger question is why aren't you running Windows XP SP3 with your VirtualPC if the goal is to push your useful life of PowerPC hardware? On Windows XP you can use 512MB w/o any registry hackery to Win9x/Win2k.