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The_Interloper

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 28, 2016
681
1,411
Maybe its just me, but this section of the forum seems to have gone a little quieter lately. I wondered if the advent of the M1 Macs and their incredible performance (plus how they are likely to perform in the future with the next chips) has made any defectors consider returning to the Mac?

While I need to always have a PC for my work, these new machines have really got my interest and I can’t honestly see the PC industry being able to respond to this any time soon in any meaningful way. I’m also seeing increasing numbers of discussions on Windows forums where people are expressing frustration at both the glacial pace of progress from Intel and Windows itself.

I do wonder if the promise of incredible battery life will be enough to move the needle for the Mac platform - although Apple’s pricing will never give them huge market share, these new machines are surely going to look like the best thing on the shop floor for a lot of buyers in the next couple of years.

If you’re a consumer with no platform preference in the market for a $1000 premium ultrabook, which would you buy - the Air or some Asus Zenbook variant with half the battery life? I can see Apple at least sewing up the premium end of the market now.
 

c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
1,889
3,264
Apple will take more marketshare in premium market. At least that are my thoughts.

M1 chips are insane. And in 2-3 years they are just gonna get better and better.
But chip is not the only thing that makes a great product. In order for me to go back to Apple, Apple needs to produce at least decent keyboards (even one on MBP 16 is lousy... at least to me), remove that gimmick called touch bar, and stop with locking down MacOS.

If in 2-3-4 years they produce a workstation laptop with decent keyboard, no touch bar, and MacOS isn't locked down, I will switch back in a heart beat. But without all those 3 requirements, I'm not going back. I know, I'm just one guy, Apple doesn't care, etc. But I'm just writing my own subjective requirements.

Either way, next few years are gonna be interesting in IT :)
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,307
43,129
I do wonder if the promise of incredible battery life will be enough to move the needle for the Mac platform
I don't think so. Just my personal and uninformed opinion but given the high cost of Macs, and they're now on a completely different platform. Its not going see a tidal wave of new buyers. The people who were going to get macs will continue. The people who are on the fence will stay on the fence for the time being and those who need windows, will continue to buy PCs.

While the processing power is purportedly to be great, as is the battery life, I don't see it driving more sales - at least to move the needle on the marketshare
 

SteveJUAE

macrumors 601
Aug 14, 2015
4,369
4,556
Land of Smiles
I don't think so. Just my personal and uninformed opinion but given the high cost of Macs, and they're now on a completely different platform. Its not going see a tidal wave of new buyers. The people who were going to get macs will continue. The people who are on the fence will stay on the fence for the time being and those who need windows, will continue to buy PCs.

While the processing power is purportedly to be great, as is the battery life, I don't see it driving more sales - at least to move the needle on the marketshare
Yep pretty much agree with this and if anything those possibly alienated by lacking support on some software or even bootcamp may out weigh those who's interest is perked up a bit

There are just too many other factors than just an increase in raw CPU and/or endurance that can be matched for those looking for niches
 

ian87w

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2020
8,704
12,633
Indonesia
As a longtime Windows user, yes, simply because of the battery life these M1 Macbooks are having. I'm kinda tired of being tethered to the outlet on my supposedly portable laptop.

Nowadays, I realize that majority of what I do on my computer are either web-based, or platform agnostic. All my Google stuff are cloud based, so the OS doesn't matter. MS Office is available on both Windows and Macs. Other small apps that I use like VLC and Handbrake are also platform agnostic. I can't really think any specific apps that I need that is Windows only. So it might be time, unless intel magically matches Apple's offerings next year.

The only downside of switching is cost. Apple is not only a premium brand in my country, but the authorized distributors are adding a hefty extra markup on the prices. So it's a significant investment.

If the question was asked prior to Apple Silicon, the answer was a definite no to Macs. Intel Macs have the same innards as Windows laptops (barring the T1/2 chips) with similar performance and battery life, so no point in paying premium just for the fancy Apple logo imo.
 

LeeW

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2017
4,121
8,908
Over here
Nearly two weeks in with the new MM, I have already said I am impressed and that remains the position. in comparison to the previous 2018 MM it is night and day in everything. Not rushing in any way to dive back into macOS, been quite happy with Windows and my PC for months now. But I am a bit of a geek for these things so I was always going to want to try for myself what Apple delivers.

The 'exciting' thing for AS is the future, not today. Yes, it runs cool under load, does not thermal throttle, you can't hear the fans, it plays games better than ever before, it's faster, and so on. As a 1st effort, I am well impressed.

But will developers take to it at the scale needed? Probably, but only time will tell.

A lot of comments around on this forum from those with the inability to think with comments like 'game developers will start bringing AAA games to the Mac, it's worth it now with 100m users'. Yes, that would be true if it was not for the fact the 100m user base today is all using intel, not AS. It may (probably will) take years before AS is in enough hands for many developers to consider the market big enough to come to macOS.
 

Frankied22

macrumors 68000
Nov 24, 2010
1,770
560
I use both Windows and macOS and while AS is exciting and the benchmarks seem very promising, I am actually leaning towards just going full Windows. I am not pleased with Big Sur on my 16" MBP and while it looked pretty in screenshots at first, in everyday use I find it clunky, cumbersome, heavy, and stripped of visual information. macOS has been making quite a few annoying changes over the years and at some point I just started asking myself, why am I using an OS that I have to make compromises for and where I am not able to run the largest amount of software and games? It used to be because macOS looked the best and had tons of tiny quality of life features baked in that blew away the competition. Nowadays...I am not so sure anymore. Windows 10 flies on my PC, gets out of the way, and lets me run anything I want.
 

Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,342
It will take some market for the normal users when Apple will adopt now the same iphone/ipad strategy...
so expect in 1-2 years to have a low end macbook air (or SE) at around 500$ and so on
Or expect when the M2 variants will come for the entry level macs...the M1 to get disscount by Apple by 100$
So, yes, Apple will take some market share, and if the others dont have in 2 years a direct competition , that market share will be a little even bigger because the macs will have the best value..an sub 700$ macbook air with proper raw cpu performance that doesnt heat, that has incredible battery life, with good speakers, good build and display...
We are already working for native linux for M macs....and in future win10 arm will be a thing..the downsize will be win10 x86 support
 

Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,342
A lot of comments around on this forum from those with the inability to think with comments like 'game developers will start bringing AAA games to the Mac, it's worth it now with 100m users'.
i think they refer that AAA games for the mac will join ios platform as well where are those 100m users....and that can be a big thing...since now apple tv, ipad etc has support for controllers
So yes, if i were a game dev i would make from now on AAA games for the arm architecture...since that will be the future and where the mass market is
even a friend that is dev at blizzard told me they are making an diablo immortal (i think its called) and diablo 4 both for arm (diablo 4 will still has support for x86 as well)
 

c0ppo

macrumors 68000
Feb 11, 2013
1,889
3,264
i think they refer that AAA games for the mac will join ios platform as well where are those 100m users....and that can be a big thing...since now apple tv, ipad etc has support for controllers
So yes, if i were a game dev i would make from now on AAA games for the arm architecture...since that will be the future and where the mass market is
even a friend that is dev at blizzard told me they are making an diablo immortal (i think its called) and diablo 4 both for arm (diablo 4 will still has support for x86 as well)

I'm a gamedev. Supporting iPhones is a must, since iPhone means profit.
Supporting MacOS means lots of workarounds, lots of work, and mostly no profit at all. Simply not worth it. And lack of games released for MacOS since introduction of Metal shows it.

I don't see that changing in near future. It's not as simple as a powerful CPU and GPU. Apple dropped support for OpenCL, and they won't ever adopt Vulkan. Without Vulkan, I don't see many game devs porting their games over to mac.

Even blizzard dropped macos with some of their recent titles and hits. And they have always released games for MacOS.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,307
43,129
So yes, if i were a game dev
Of course you would, you like Macs but if game developers are business men and woman, they look at the high cost of game development and determine how best to make a profit - especially since major AAA titles cost millions to make.

since that will be the future and where the mass market is
Apple has 10% of the market share (give or take a point). Of that niche percentage, only a small subset is willing to play games.

I don't see Apple's move to ARM to suddenly cause a seismic shift in markshare, people will not suddenly abandon their PCs for the ARM Macs. If that assumption (and yes its an assumption) is correct or at least seems like common sense, then its unlikely that a game developer is going to spend hundred of thousands of dollars on a platform that basically they won't get a return on their investment.

More so now in 2020/2021, simply because of the prevalence of streaming, they know people can subscribe to a streaming service, buy their game off of steam (for windows) and play on their Macs.

blizzard told me they are making an diablo immortal
Diablo Immortal is an iOS game, so that shouldn't be included in a discussion of AAA titles. As for Diablo 4, it was announced for PC only and the gaming community seems to think Blizzard isn't rolling out a Mac version
 

SteveJUAE

macrumors 601
Aug 14, 2015
4,369
4,556
Land of Smiles
It will take some market for the normal users when Apple will adopt now the same iphone/ipad strategy...
so expect in 1-2 years to have a low end macbook air (or SE) at around 500$ and so on
Or expect when the M2 variants will come for the entry level macs...the M1 to get disscount by Apple by 100$
So, yes, Apple will take some market share, and if the others dont have in 2 years a direct competition , that market share will be a little even bigger because the macs will have the best value..an sub 700$ macbook air with proper raw cpu performance that doesnt heat, that has incredible battery life, with good speakers, good build and display...
We are already working for native linux for M macs....and in future win10 arm will be a thing..the downsize will be win10 x86 support
So in your miraculous reduction of prices strategy where does the Ipad fit in ? LOL

I think this is just wishful thinking with little or no substance unfortunately and completely contradictory of premium products

Like Apple little market share the CPU is similarly a small % of devices costs, even now the new M1's are sitting in an old chassis and dated spec's to keep entry price down

Apple prey very successfully on the wealthier consumer and only introduces lesser spec/cheaper models as it reaches some saturation point. It will take some time for the loyal fan base to all convert to AS I expect prices to increase in the interim time as it sells bigger faster than last gen merry-go-round
 

LeeW

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2017
4,121
8,908
Over here
only a small subset is willing to play games.

An even smaller subset of those will commit to Apple for playing games, most that are keen gamers will have a PC for that purpose. Even if Apple makes their devices better it will never match the PC gaming audience or even encourage gamers to switch to their devices.
 

2984839

Cancelled
Apr 19, 2014
2,114
2,239
No.

I'm glad to see a real competitor to Intel and AMD but I'm not happy at all with how locked down and proprietary Apple hardware is, and I find macOS utterly unusable. This proprietary-ness has always been a problem, but since they changed to attaching the keyboard and touchpad over the SPI bus and especially since the T2 chip, other operating systems are either not an option or work poorly. The lack of repairability of these things is just absurd too. Hope the SSD doesn't fail on an M1 Mac because you aren't replacing that.
 

LeeW

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2017
4,121
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Over here
The lack of repairability of these things is just absurd too. Hope the SSD doesn't fail on an M1 Mac because you aren't replacing that.

I agree but then that is the way things are moving in general, slowly but surely there are fewer and fewer devices you can replace the SSD/RAM.
 

Spudlicious

macrumors 6502a
Nov 21, 2015
936
818
Bedfordshire, England
Apple will take more marketshare in premium market. At least that are my thoughts.

M1 chips are insane. And in 2-3 years they are just gonna get better and better.
But chip is not the only thing that makes a great product. In order for me to go back to Apple, Apple needs to produce at least decent keyboards (even one on MBP 16 is lousy... at least to me), remove that gimmick called touch bar, and stop with locking down MacOS.

If in 2-3-4 years they produce a workstation laptop with decent keyboard, no touch bar, and MacOS isn't locked down, I will switch back in a heart beat. But without all those 3 requirements, I'm not going back. I know, I'm just one guy, Apple doesn't care, etc. But I'm just writing my own subjective requirements.

Either way, next few years are gonna be interesting in IT :)
I agree Apple are likely to take more premium market share, and they've never been interested in fighting at the low margin El Cheapo end. The OP refers to Apples pricing, but spec for spec they're not too uncompetitive, just look what a high end Dell or Lenovo costs. If a computer is an important tool for earning a living the price is only one factor to consider, tremendous battery life and super performance must carry a lot of weight. Apple has never aimed at the gaming market, while as for weirdo hobbyist geeks (c'est moi) then Cupertino isn't bothered.

Totally agree that Apple keyboards are wretched, Lenovo kick them out of touch, but on the other hand their trackpads are uncontested by any Windows machine.

Interesting indeed. I'm sticking with Apple and look forward with keen anticipation of wonders to come.
 

2984839

Cancelled
Apr 19, 2014
2,114
2,239
I agree but then that is the way things are moving in general, slowly but surely there are fewer and fewer devices you can replace the SSD/RAM.
Yes, unfortunately other companies follow Apple's lead like a bunch of lemmings diving into the sea.

I could tolerate it if they would just outright say that they're doing it because they want you to pay them exorbitant prices for out of warranty repairs instead of fixing it yourself or using a 3rd party repair shop. Instead Apple will sanctimoniously finger-wag us about "environmental justice", while they have their outsourced Chinese sweatshops deliberately building locked down devices destined for e-waste if the SSD dies.
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
17,978
7,728
Agreed, the loss of running windows will be a negative that will offset to some degree any gains from others wanting to switch.
A few things here (as someone who uses Windows programs). First, Windows compatibility is somewhat less important in 2021 as it was in 2006. An entire Apple ecosystem has evolved around mobile devices since then, and that will be a source of new customers. Second, only about 5% of the Mac installed base uses BootCamp or virtualization to run Windows even after 15 years of compatibility. Third, Microsoft might not be able to resist the temptation to sell retail copies of Windows on ARM. While it might be somewhat embarrassing that completely unoptimized QEMU-based copies of Windows are benchmarking almost twice as fast as the Surface Pro X, I could see Microsoft trying to light a fire under Qualcomm to step up their own efforts.

The last is a wild card, of course, but I do think M1 will give Apple’s Mac business a jolt in 2021 and beyond.
 
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KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
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So in your miraculous reduction of prices strategy where does the Ipad fit in ? LOL

I think this is just wishful thinking with little or no substance unfortunately and completely contradictory of premium products

Like Apple little market share the CPU is similarly a small % of devices costs, even now the new M1's are sitting in an old chassis and dated spec's to keep entry price down

Apple prey very successfully on the wealthier consumer and only introduces lesser spec/cheaper models as it reaches some saturation point. It will take some time for the loyal fan base to all convert to AS I expect prices to increase in the interim time as it sells bigger faster than last gen merry-go-round
I don’t see Apple competing in the sub-$500 PC market. That’s what the iPad is for. Could Apple release a $799 MacBook? Perhaps, though I agree that they are likely going to keep the $999 entry point for a while. As for the chassis, it’s clear to me that Apple designed these with their own chips in mind. There wasn’t much of a need to change the other specs (though they did update the color gamut on the Air) because the M1 is the draw. In 2 years, once they have finished the transition, they can update the Air and base Pro, perhaps with the rumored 14” smaller-bezel design.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,307
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First, Windows compatibility is somewhat less important in 2021 as it was in 2006.
I disagree,, while the state of Mac computer is certainly more robust, there are people who want or need to run windows. My personal obersvation is that many people seem to be concerned about losing windows capability, some state they're leaving the platform, others are taking a wait and see. Just looking at all the chatter on Parallels running in rosetta 2 emulation and how popular that topic is, is evidence to me so to support its more important then you're postulating.


Second, only about 5% of the Mac installed base uses BootCamp or virtualization to run Windows
5%? can you provide your source material to back up that assessment?
 
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circatee

Contributor
Nov 30, 2014
4,425
2,998
For me personally, if/when I go back into an office environment to work, I will ask for a MacBook.
Before, I was scared of the performance and reliability of the Mac units. Alas, with the M1, my mindset is slowing giving pause to other possibilities...

PS: I would like to have the option to use/try Windows on an M1. So, I guess I will be waiting a tad bit longer...
 

LeeW

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2017
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Yes, unfortunately other companies follow Apple's lead like a bunch of lemmings diving into the sea.

I don't believe others are following Apple in this, it's simply a natural trend. In the low/mid, sub $800 for example, they are **** quality in the main, plastic everything, not built to last anymore. You will get issues elsewhere before the RAM and SSD need to be replaced/upgraded and when it gets to a point where someone is unhappy with it, they replace in the main.

Companies know this so why make the extra effort to make it upgradeable, and ultimately it is easier and cheaper to solder everything to the motherboard.
 
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KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
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I disagree,, while the state of Mac computer is certainly more robust, there are people who want or need to run windows. My personal obersvation is that many people seem to be concerned about losing windows capability, some state they're leaving the platform, others are taking a wait and see. Just looking at all the chatter on Parallels running in rosetta 2 emulation and how popular that topic is, is evidence to me so to support its more important then you're postulating.



5%? can you provide your source material to back up that assessment?
I'm not saying there aren't Mac users who want to run Windows. However, I just don't think it's very many. If Apple were that concerned about losing Windows users, they likely would have struck a deal with Microsoft to make an explicit statement that Windows on ARM would become available (if it were not ready on Day 1). Microsoft did commit to native versions of Office (which is in beta) and Edge.

It's difficult to find hard stats, but Parallels reportedly had annual sales of around $100 million in 2008, and KKR bought Parallel's owner Corel for about $1 billion last year. Parallels has since expanded into a broader virtualization company and is no longer primarily focused on Parallels Desktop for Mac. Even assuming Parallels was half the value of Corel, that likely translates to about $200 million annual sales.

Also, given the performance of the M1 MacBooks, it may be much more realistic for Mac users to simply buy a cheaper MacBook and a Windows PC rather than, say a 16" MacBook Pro to run both.
 

LeeW

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I'm not saying there aren't Mac users who want to run Windows. However, I just don't think it's very many.
Immediately after the ARM announcement all I ever seen, heard, and received messages on was "Is that it for macOS now we can't run Windows?'. Even on this forum, it was a big subject.

So I expect it is a lot more than you probably think. I can understand that. I know so many both outside and on this forum that just don't like Office on Mac, I can definitely understand that. A lot of software out there that means even for the Apple hardcore, they need Windows as it's not available for macOS.

I do believe Windows will come along whether that be as a result of something Parallels do or MS.
 
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