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HDR 10+
- Thread starter davcole
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HDR10+ is just playing catch up with Dolby Vision really, not a huge bump. Will be a while before we see films mastered and released in HDR10+
It is catchup for a large swath of TVs that don’t support DV. Either because of brand or due to less expensive LED panels. And due to the life cycle of a TV, simply getting a DV screen is not an option for many current 4k owners.
Supporting HDR10+ for content already encoded for DV is not complex and adds little to no cost to production. You don’t need to remaster anything to get 95% of the benefit out of HDR10+. You can simply leave the same base video layer and transform the DV metadata to appropriate HDR10+ data.
As an owner of a good display that does not support DV (KS8000), I would love to see Apple support HDR10+.
There more to it in post production to create HDR content. I work in the media production world, to create HDR competent properly it goes right back to pre-production. It’s not a magic switch which turns everything into HDR. Although technically yes you can re-encode previous media to any of the HDR codecs, it wouldn’t look that much different, it would just look like REC708 but in REC2020 colourspace, hence it has to be brought back into the studio where a colourist would need to redo all the footage to be exposed correctly for HDR.
Of course. That is why I explicitly stated that the cost of releasing HDR10+ is negligible IF the post production to DV was already done.
Most DV movies on BD already ride the same base file as HDR10, with HDR using a static value and DV using dynamic metadata. This is already compromising the color space to a certain extent in either or both formats. For this same backwards compatibility reason, most DV movies are not in 12bit color anyway. REC2020 is not mandatory, and is uncommon in DV films today. It exists in the spec more for future proofing.
As I said, deriving HDR10+ metadata from the existing DV would significantly improve the quality vs HDR10, creating a closer match to the master even without any manual intervention.
It doesn’t need to be perfect to be beneficial to end users.
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Not so sure about uncommon filming, most productions we are involved with these days are specing for HDR output in post. Just spent a stupid amount of money for a couple of Atomos Sumo's for the exact purpose we can can monitor in HDR as we are filming. Makes sure exposure is correct which can be a pain when monitoring in LOG.
I would not be surprised to see HDR10+ overtake DoVi in short time. And this mainly, because for it’s royalty-free nature, post production facilities become accessible to large masses.
IMHO currently DoVi has two major problems:
a) implementing a decoder seems to be costly for TV manufacturers (why else so slowly getting implemented?)
b) even trickier is getting DoVi workflow into one’s production house. I think HDR10+ has much more chance to become used even by small freelancers and hobbyists. DoVi is definitely out of range for them.
IMHO currently DoVi has two major problems:
a) implementing a decoder seems to be costly for TV manufacturers (why else so slowly getting implemented?)
b) even trickier is getting DoVi workflow into one’s production house. I think HDR10+ has much more chance to become used even by small freelancers and hobbyists. DoVi is definitely out of range for them.
Hey Cell i'd love to know you personal option of when the ATV 4K first launched and put EVERYTHING into HDR. Were you absolutely horrified and what is your take on it? What it a truly crazy thing to do OR could it ever work?
Well supposedly all of Amazon’s HDR content is now HDR10+ on displays that support it.
I got mine a few weeks after launch when I decided to buy a LGC7 so never really had the joys of seeing everything in HDR
Although got sick of switching the ATV settings over between HDR10 or DV dependant on the movie's output. But, since the content aware update it's made it so much easier watching HDR content of course. Plus with the LG you can do TV settings for each codec which is very helpful. Both HDR and DV look nice now on the C7, it's a nice panel, but nowhere near a proper grading/reference monitor, but you'd be looking at $5k+ for something low end! 
HDR10+ is supposed to work with all HDR10 devices, so there's no reason the ATV wouldn't get upgraded to HDR10+ as a bonus if you use iTunes movies you won't have to buy them again unlike with physical disks.
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My issue is most big budget films are now being shot on Dolby Vision Cameras so we haven't even scratched the service of what real DV will be like, now they are talking about HDR10+ which isn't even part of the production pipeline. So does it just take the DV MetaData from the cameras and convert it to HDR10+ metadata?
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I got mine a few weeks after launch when I decided to buy a LGC7 so never really had the joys of seeing everything in HDR
Technicolor begs to differ. They are using the Consumer LG panels to color grade a lot of their consumer products. Hence the new Technicolor Modes on LG Tvs.
Thank you for the reply Cell! Totally agree about the panel. Who makes the best reference monitor panel? Is it still SONY?I got mine a few weeks after launch when I decided to buy a LGC7 so never really had the joys of seeing everything in HDR
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Maybe Technicolor is doing that not because they are a great panel/monitor but because they want to see what their work looks like on the mainstream market etc - what the film looks like in a home for example. We did that in radio in post production - everything produced flawlessly in Adobe Audition, mixed via pro grade speakers and desk and then saved as a WAV. We'd later listen to it on a range of bluetooth speakers, BOSE laptop speakers, convert to MP4 128-320 etc to determine what the listener would hear. But often, it wasn't good! The final insult was when a stereo piece of our 'art' got broadcast on crappy DAB radio at 96mbps stereo - it sounded a true disgrace!
There's no such thing at Dolby Vision cameras. All the HDR flavours are purely output methods for colouring/colour space during post. Everything these days are shot in LOG, depending what "sort" of LOG depends on which camera it is shot on, although most shoot are shot in CineRAW, which mean the footage can be put into any colour space required. The output can be shot on several camera rigs throughout a production but matching the footage on various shoots is where a colourists earns their money, although there are many techniques to match footage.
Reference/grading monitors are used so that the footage is correct on how production wishes the film to look. Consumer products are trying to play catch up with tech to display how the footage should look. Believe me when I say you would be shocked at the difference when watching a film on a very high end reference monitor compared to a high end consumer panel. Yeah they are catching up for sure, which is a good thing.
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Yeah Sony's are still up there. We use a PVM-X550
There are plenty of options cheaper wise, but most production companies will study their footage on high end consumer panels too, along with sound balance too. It's a bloody minefield though lolhttp://www.digibroadcast.com/monito...RE0oZylClK6HyLlMxy_WvzddK0TboQkcaAtSwEALw_wcB
Do you use anything from Dolby's repertoire (like Pulsar or their CMU)??We use a PVM-X550
https://vimeo.com/channels/dolbyvision
http://vanhurkman.com/wordpress/?p=3548
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It's a complex thing, as I said it's a minefield dependant on which studio is using as their base HDR content output. Quite often these day a finished edit will be shipped to a specialised colourist house who will complete the final output along with the director. Once that is complete the encoding will be balanced for the HDR output.
OK, I get it. Color grading is a specialised service that you can buy in. Makes sense.
It is indeed. As with sound specialists, there's specialist for colour grading, colour correction etc. When films were shot on film they used to do tricks with developing the negatives to give it a look. Now that just about all movies are not shot on digital, or transferred to digital, it's way easier to create an different look and feel to a movie. I seem to remember one of the Coen Brothers films being the first film to be digitally graded, probably 20 years ago or so.
Looks like this could make LG fans very very happy...
LG 2018 E8 OLED TV: CalMAN 3D LUT AutoCal is A Game-Changer!
LG 2018 E8 OLED TV: CalMAN 3D LUT AutoCal is A Game-Changer!
I wouldn’t say it’s that much of a game changer. He wrong by say a LUT is a gold standard in the industry, in general they are looked down on by colourists. Plus, when you save a user adjustment on any TV it becomes your LUT, in effect. A LUT is just a predefined adjustment from RGB values.
What I can’t understand is why modern panels aren’t calibrated properly in the factory to the standard colour RGB values for broadcast standards of cinema standards.
Look at the Pixel 2 screen. They attempted to sell a better calibrated display and there was a lot of outcry about the screen looking washed out as a result. Also there is a reason that stores have a special display mode to make the sale.
For better or worse, to many consumers, a good picture is not about accuracy.
That said, Apple has had pretty good success in marketing calibrated iPhone and Mac displays. I think if Apple made a full TV, this will be a big selling point.
I know a lot of it is personal taste, especially broadcast material. But, all that time and effort to make making a film look great, then in post work making sure it looks how it should in todays highly modern cinemas seems to be thrown out of the window on quite a lot of TV's.
I can't remember the last time I saw someone trying to turn the contrast up in the cinema lol.
Talking of which, last summer, we visited the cinema to see 'Absolutely Fabulous'. It was a birthday & friends gathering and we paid for a special event screening were they served a glass of champagne & smoke salmon bagels - it was great. UNTIL the film started. The damn film was shown in some jerky, soap opera effect. It was awful throughout!!!
This Christmas, I bought it in HD from iTunes and guess what? The picture is perfect! No soap opera effect to the picture. Seeing it at the cinema was an absolute disaster and expensive at £25 a ticket!
lol Abfab, what ya like
No excuse for bad screening in cinemas these days, at least the salmon bagels and champers made up for it