HDTV: 1080p vs. 1080i vs. ?

[aristobrat]

I'm also looking for a new TV.

My inputs will be DirecTV (I think all of their HD programming is 1080i), an Intel mac Mini (Front Row), and a Nintento Wii.

My couch is about 8 feet away from where this will be mounted.

I was thinking 42" would be fine.

What would 1080i on a 1080p device look like?

 

[mkrishnan]

Well my TV can with a HD Ready sign, so im assuming its ready for HD just doesnt have a HDMI Slot!

Component, VGA, DVI, and HDMI are *all* capable of carrying HD signals. The signal with the latter two will be slightly better, but they can all carry an HD signal.

It's not really murky.

I don't really agree about this. There are still things that are murky.

1) There is no standard for cable transmission of HD that anyone is paying attention to, for instance, which doesn't require a set-top box from the cable company. CableCard was supposed to address that and flopped.

2) The HDMI standard, for the time being, continues to be a moving target.

3) There are a large number of televisions in homes that are High-Def that don't have HDCP. Even if this has changed and newly marketed televisions get this right, this is such a major issue that a number of high-def media providers agreed to disable use of HDCP on their product because of fears of incompatibility.

4) With respect to the pure cabling and digital/analog situation, I generally agree that this information is readily available (e.g. what is different / the same between component, VGA, DVI, and HDMI). However, there are still wide reports of device-device incompatibility... e.g. two devices refusing to communicate using one of those four standards at a resolution they both support, but being willing to do so on another. In particular VGA and to a lesser extent DVI seem to not yet be uniformly implemented between video card manufacturers and TV manufacturers.

I'm not an idiot...I'm a smart person. With a masters' degree in engineering. And before and since I bought my HDTV, I've done a lot of research. At this point, I understand a lot, but not everything. Given the amount of time I've sunk into trying to understand it, I'd say that it's murky in the sense that it is not transparent to the average consumer.

That's ultimately necessary -- if HDTV is truly going to replace traditional NTSC sets in the US, people with IQs of 85 or 95 need to be able to understand it. Right now people with IQs of 125 or 130 are having difficulty. That says murky to me.

 

[-hh]

HH, try an amplified indoor antenna. You can get them for $20-40. Some people have reported great success with them (including OTA HD). Of course, that still leaves you with a comparatively small number of choices compared to cable or satellite but simply living among jack-booted HOA thugs doesn't rule it out.

I'm aware of the amplified indoor UHF's; my problem is that I'm technically, a zone purple (20dB gain) antenna for a couple of stations, and I don't yet have an ATSC tuner to start to experiment with to see if a blue or red grade antenna is enough gain for my location without excessive signal drop-out.

My plans right now are that my Dad wants his outdoor VHF/UHF replaced this spring, and I'll be buying that & installing it - I'm going to take down his old antenna *carefully* and make the effort to get it refolded for storage (a PITA) and bring it home to do some experimentation with for my own purposes.

Phase II is to find a good OTA ATSC tuner box for my parents, since they don't want to replace their TV set. I'll also buy that and I'll use it first to test out my situation at home (with their old antenna and my TV) before I take a weekend and go over to their place to install it all for them.

What I get out of all of this work is a cheap confirmation of what the deal's going to be for my needs to convert, and I'll then just have to convince my wife to buy the $100 wineguard SS-2000 (its not a returnable item from the local retailer I can get it from) and get an HD set (probably a 1080p) and then cut off the CATV leeches ... and be able stick out my tounge at the Homeowners Assocation


-hh

 

[ready2switch]

I'm aware of the amplified indoor UHF's; my problem is that I'm technically, a zone purple (20dB gain) antenna for a couple of stations, and I don't yet have an ATSC tuner to start to experiment with to see if a blue or red grade antenna is enough gain for my location without excessive signal drop-out.

My plans right now are that my Dad wants his outdoor VHF/UHF replaced this spring, and I'll be buying that & installing it - I'm going to take down his old antenna *carefully* and make the effort to get it refolded for storage (a PITA) and bring it home to do some experimentation with for my own purposes.

Phase II is to find a good OTA ATSC tuner box for my parents, since they don't want to replace their TV set. I'll also buy that and I'll use it first to test out my situation at home (with their old antenna and my TV) before I take a weekend and go over to their place to install it all for them.

What I get out of all of this work is a cheap confirmation of what the deal's going to be for my needs to convert, and I'll then just have to convince my wife to buy the $100 wineguard SS-2000 (its not a returnable item from the local retailer I can get it from) and get an HD set (probably a 1080p) and then cut off the CATV leeches ... and be able stick out my tounge at the Homeowners Assocation


-hh

Samsung makes a receiver for about $180, but good luck finding anyone that carries it. We ended up getting a refurbished DirectTV box with a tuner in it, now just looking for the magic antenna to get the 1 VHF HD station OTA here. (all others are UHF and come in fine with $8 rabbit ears/circle thingy combo).

 

[Macmadant]

But what type of panel to go for LCD or plasma, i originally vouched for LCD, but according to this plasma is better

 

[flopticalcube]

That is something you will have to decide for yourself. Go to a shop and look at a few. Try different types of inputs signals (standard broadcast, DVD at 480p, HDTV at 720p, etc). Generally speaking, a good plasma will outshine a good LCD at the same resolution, but it is becoming harder to tell. Plasma, although fixed resolution, displays standard tv (480i) better than most LCDs do. But not all plasmas or LCDs are the same. Finally, if your viewing area is dark, go for plasma because it generally does black levels better. If it is bright, LCD will perform better.

 

[munckee]

Thanks for all the info, this is great stuff! Please, keep it coming.

Also, anyone have any recommendations on brands to look at or to stay away from?

It seems that Sony is priced a little high for name recognition. I've heard good things about the Sharp TV's. We saw a philips yesterday that looked good as well. I wasn't so impressed with the physical finish on the vizio sets we saw. And we'll probably steer clear of the "off" names like Olevia just because.

 

[apfhex]

It seems that Sony is priced a little high for name recognition. I've heard good things about the Sharp TV's. We saw a philips yesterday that looked good as well. I wasn't so impressed with the physical finish on the vizio sets we saw. And we'll probably steer clear of the "off" names like Olevia just because.

Yeah, good idea. Are you planning on CRT, LCD, or Plasma? What size are you considering? In my research, Sony CRT HDTV's had the best overall picture quality for the 30" range, and I'm *very* happy with the picture on mine, I've never seen anything better except on those super super super expensive 60"+ plasmas you see in stores. I know some people with Panasonic (a brand I very much like) and Westinghouse and those seem pretty good.

What I meant to say is that any HDTV must accept both 720p and 1080i and display them to the best of its abilities, but is not required to do anything with 1080p.

That's how it should be, but.... there are "HDTV's" that can't do 720p. That's definitely something to watch out for when shopping, typically with the cheaper brands (of course).

1080p capabilities would give you the most future proofing, but those models are likely still a bit more expensive than 1080i ones. And since there is no 1080p programing available, it's probably not worth it now. Make sure you have a progressive scan DVD player. 480p still looks pretty good for movies... I'm definitely in no hurry to upgrade to HD-DVD or Blu-Ray! (I might want an upconverting DVD player at some point though)

 

[balamw]

I'm also looking for a new TV.

My inputs will be DirecTV (I think all of their HD programming is 1080i), an Intel mac Mini (Front Row), and a Nintento Wii.

My couch is about 8 feet away from where this will be mounted.

I was thinking 42" would be fine.

What would 1080i on a 1080p device look like?

Actually DTV carries both 1080i and 720p depending on the channel/program. Plus, the receiver can actually downconvert/upconvert to a given output resolution. e.g. I have a pair of HR10-250 DTiVos and they always output 720p to my sets.

FWIW Purists would point out that the bitrates DTV offers are less than what is available OTA or on cable so HD quality is degraded. Once my current DTV commitment is up, I may well switch over to FiOS for all but some international programming.

One set is a 1360x768 40" Samsung with the couch at ~10 feet away. I can tell the difference between 480i/p and 720p, but am not sure that 1080i/p would make any substantial difference. 480p (DVD with progressive output) already looks pretty good, but 720p is better.

That's how it should be, but.... there are "HDTV's" that can't do 720p. That's definitely something to watch out for when shopping, typically with the cheaper brands (of course).

They must not be using the HDTV or HD Ready label/logo, because it requires 720p and 1080i compatibility as well as HDCP.

B

 

[jtown]

I am not debating what you are saying, but want to make sure I understand. When you say that 1080i scales down to 720, does that mean it takes some of each 1/60th of a second's lines and combine them in 1/30th of a second? Because as I understand it 1080i shows 540 lines every 1/60th of a second, and 720p shows 720 lines every 1/30th of a second.

So my assumption would be that this conversion process takes, 2/3 of the lines from a 1080i broadcast and combines them with 2/3 of the lines from the next 1/60th second, into a "progressive" 1/30th of a second?

Heck if I know exactly how it happens. The precise details will vary from one scaler to the next. There are lengthy debates about which method of scaling is best and it all comes down to a matter of taste (and budget). My point was that compromises will have to be made. LCD panels have one native resolution. Anything other than that native resolution will be altered and the image presented will not be the "true" image. When researching the available options, one should take this into consideration and give some thought to what kind of material will be displayed on the set and buy a product that will give their preferred material the best possible presentation.

 

[munckee]

Yeah, good idea. Are you planning on CRT, LCD, or Plasma? What size are you considering? In my research, Sony CRT HDTV's had the best overall picture quality for the 30" range, and I'm *very* happy with the picture on mine, I've never seen anything better except on those super super super expensive 60"+ plasmas you see in stores. I know some people with Panasonic (a brand I very much like) and Westinghouse and those seem pretty good.

We're looking for an LCD. We probably won't be adopting blu-ray/hd dvd until it becomes the "norm" (whatever you get from netflix/blockbuster) since we don't buy many movies.

On another note, what exactly is HDMI? Is it a new type of cable, or simply a descriptor for an all-digital interface?

 

[barr08]

We're looking for an LCD. We probably won't be adopting blu-ray/hd dvd until it becomes the "norm" (whatever you get from netflix/blockbuster) since we don't buy many movies.

On another note, what exactly is HDMI? Is it a new type of cable, or simply a descriptor for an all-digital interface?

From Wikipedia:

The High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI) is an all-digital audio/video interface capable of transmitting uncompressed streams. HDMI also incorporates Digital Rights Management technology. HDMI provides an interface between any compatible digital audio/video source, such as a set-top box, a DVD player, a PC, a video game system, or an AV receiver and a compatible digital audio and/or video monitor, such as a digital television (DTV).

HDTVs come with these ports to connect things to and get back high definition output. They are pretty pivitol for a good HDTV experience with any peripherals, as far as I know. The more of these ports on your tv, the better.

Oh, and Netflix is now renting out bluray and HD DVD movies. Just letting you know the future is NOW.

 

[munckee]

From Wikipedia:


HDTVs come with these ports to connect things to and get back high definition output. They are pretty pivitol for a good HDTV experience with any peripherals, as far as I know. The more of these ports on your tv, the better.

Oh, and Netflix is now renting out bluray and HD DVD movies. Just letting you know the future is NOW.

Thanks. I read the wiki writeup, but still felt like i was missing something.

As I mentioned, this is for my mom, who probably won't spend the dough on a new hd/br player for a little while. She just doesn't watch that many movies, and I would expect that once we get her set up with on demand, she'll rent even fewer.

 

[bousozoku]

But what type of panel to go for LCD or plasma, i originally vouched for LCD, but according to this plasma is better

It's debatable.

Do your fluorescent bulbs burn out? They use charged gas to produce light, just as plasma displays do. LCDs are better at providing a stable display, but plasma responds more quickly.

I've found minor issues after a year of living watching t.v. and DVDs on a 37 inch LCD and most of them would probably be resolved by buying a more expensive, newer model. Plasma is good (and has esoteric appeal) but I'd rather have stability.

 

[Aniej]

I am leaning towards an LCD right now, for a variety of reasons not really worth getting into a debate over, but with that said, what LCD tv would you recommend if I am into watching HD channels a good amount, DVD (soon blueray) and MOST IMPORTANTLY will very likely be hooking up one of my Macs to the tv?

This is less of a 1080p v. 1080i question, though if you fervently believe a point needs to be made in this department go right ahead, and more of a what brand and size do you recommend? I am trying to stay under or around $4000 and am currently most interested in an Aquas, Sony XBR 3 or 2, or a samsung. The sizes I am contemplating are 46'' or 52'' Thoughts?

 

[Aniej]

still no suggestions? maybe now that the working folks are home there will be some posts...

 

[h0e0h]

PM Sent

 

[ftaok]

What would 1080i on a 1080p device look like?

Theorectically, 1080i will look like 1080p on a 1080p TV. As long as the TV is capable of proper de-interlacing of the 1080i signal. Even if it doesn't do the proper de-interlacing, you'd still have a difficult time seeing the difference.

With that said, you should probably look for a 1080p TV that is capable of receiving a 1080p signal (not all 1080p display accept 1080p signals ... imagine that). This is because you plan on using a Mac with the TV. You'll want the extra desktop resolution that a 1920x1080 display affords you. The only thing is that at 8', the text may be getting to the point where it's a little on the small size. But when Leopard comes out and resolution indepent desktop happens, this will be moot.

ft

 

[ftaok]

I am leaning towards an LCD right now, for a variety of reasons not really worth getting into a debate over, but with that said, what LCD tv would you recommend if I am into watching HD channels a good amount, DVD (soon blueray) and MOST IMPORTANTLY will very likely be hooking up one of my Macs to the tv?

This is less of a 1080p v. 1080i question, though if you fervently believe a point needs to be made in this department go right ahead, and more of a what brand and size do you recommend? I am trying to stay under or around $4000 and am currently most interested in an Aquas, Sony XBR 3 or 2, or a samsung. The sizes I am contemplating are 46'' or 52'' Thoughts?

I have the Sharp 46" LCD62U. Many people have reported problems with "banding" on these Sharps (and the 52" as well), but mine doesn't have them ... or if they do, I don't notice them. Works great with my wife's Macbook and will display at 1080p.

I didn't want the Sony XBR2/3 because of the design would limit me to the 40" set as it is a wide TV. The Samsung doesn't have the ability to do 1:1 pixel mapping. That only left the Sharp as a choice.

Fast forward 2 months, and your choice are now a little more abundant. Toshiba has a 47" 1080p LCD that is available. I've seen it at the Bose store at King of Prussia. Also, Sharp is expected to replace the 62U series with the 92U series. Hopefully for Sharp, the banding issue will be fixed.

ft

 

[Aniej]

yeah I actually got an invite from HiFi House to come see the D92 tomorrow night. I am a little confused as to why you say the sony is limited to 40'' ? I might have read what you were trying to say wrong, but the sony has a 46'' and a 52''

 

[ftaok]

yeah I actually got an invite from HiFi House to come see the D92 tomorrow night. I am a little confused as to why you say the sony is limited to 40'' ? I might have read what you were trying to say wrong, but the sony has a 46'' and a 52''

Blame my awkward sentence structure.

The way the Sony XBR's are designed (speakers on the side plus the glass bezel) makes them physically wider than a Sharp or Samsung at the same screen size. The wall that my TV sits in front of is 60" wide, leaving space available for future wall mounted speakers, I could go with a 46" Sharp/Sammy or the 40" Sony XBR. The 46" XBR is as wide as the 52" Sharps.

I could have gone with a 46" Sony V2500, but they don't have them at Circuit City or Best Buy for some reason. Anyways, the deal that I got at CC for the Sharp was very good. I don't think I could have gotten teh Sony for anywhere near the price.

 

[whooleytoo]

If I might hijack this thread with a few more questions..

Given that HD broadcasting is only starting to appear here in Ireland, am I right in forgetting about 1080p TVs for now (in 5 years or so when I get the next one, probably) and just getting a 720p? I watch a lot of sport, and do a lot of gaming so the progressive scan is more important to me than the extra resolution of 1080i.

I'm thinking of getting a Philips 37", so the higher resolution is probably wasted anyway. Also, in terms of inputs/outputs: it has two Scart, two HDMI, and component; and audio (red and white connectors) out. Is there anything else I need? I'm hoping to add an Xbox 360, but I've no idea how that connects - component? I also want a surround sound system, but don't know if I should buy a progressive scan DVD player with a nice set of speakers, or get a set of surround speakers for the 360? What cable carries the surround signal from the TV to the DVD player/360 for TV programmes broadcast in surround?

Is there such a thing as a "HDMI" hub if I need more?

It's impossible getting good advice in the shops here. The salesmen here seem to know less about HD and setting up a home entertainment system than I do (except "bigger numbers are better". Yeah, especially when it comes to prices.. )

Any advice greatly appreciated.

 

[SteveG4Cube]

If you get a CRT, you can think of it like any old multi-sync monitor you've owned in the last 15 years. They adapt well to multiple resolutions due to the way CRTs work. They don't have a "native" resolution. IMHO, this makes them a better choice if your viewing will be purely HDTV with no computer or game console hookup. However, HD CRTs top out around 34". And I haven't seen any HD CRTs that can display 1080p (which is odd considering I used to run higher resolutions computer monitors).

Don't forget rear projection CRTs. You can get them up to 60+" and they're dirt cheap now. Yes, they're still bulky, and they need occasional convergance adjustments, but the CRT guns will long outlast any DLP bulb or Plasma screen, they have the best black quality, look as good as any other type of TV in HD and blow away anything else on non-HD channels (which is still what people are watching most of the time).

I have a 4 year old Mitsubishi 48" CRT RPTV and any time friends come over with DLP/LCoS/Plasma/LCD TVs, they're always staring in mine with great confusion wondering why they paid so much more and theirs dont look as good.

http://www.hitachi.us/tv/browse/projection/16-9digital/16-9digital_int_index.shtml

 

[Jovian9]

Here is my opinion on this topic:

I have a 53" Panasonic projection HDTV (about 5 years old or so). It displays in 1080i. HD Cable, 480p DVD's, Xbox 360 games, HD-DVD's through the Xbox 360 HD-DVD Player, and regular digital cable all look FANTASTIC (all of this through component cables).

My parents-in-law recently left for Florida for the winter (gone 3 months) so I borrowed their 32" Polaroid LCD HDTV. This TV claims to do 720p and 1080i (via website specs) but also has a 1080p setting (which is what I'm using). I tried out the 720p and 1080i settings first. I could tell no difference in any of the above mentioned items. When I went to 1080p though, there was a very noticeable difference and it looked ALOT better than when set on 720p or 1080i.

Overall the 32" on 1080p is a lot sharper than my 53" on 1080i. But the 53" TV is a lot bigger sooooooooooooooooooooo...........

The one thing I do like about the LCD HDTV compared to my 53" HDTV is the inputs/outputs. The LCD has 2 component (same as my TV), 1 HDMI (which my TV does not have) and 1 VGA (which my TV doesn't have).

If I were the original poster I'd consider 4 things in making my decision (in order):

1. How much $ can you spend?
2. which leads to what size/kind of HDTV do you want (big, projection, plasma, LCD)?
3. What kind of outputs do you want/need (component, HDMI, VGA)?
4. Do you need 1080p or is 1080i/720p HD fine with you (since you stated you may not even use the HD for awhile)?