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richgoga

macrumors regular
Original poster
Oct 11, 2013
148
58
Hi everyone

I recently acquired an untouched Mac Pro 4,1 running Snow Leopard.

Did everything required to update to Mojave including all firmware flashes (Netkas & macOS) and it was running with no problems at all.

This morning, decided to do a CPU upgrade to W3680... no chime, no boot, GPU OK diag LED flashing.

GPU is fine, checked for sure in my old 2,1, also tried the GT120 that came with the 4,1.

Suspected a bad CPU, so decided to put the old W3520 back in.

Same issue. No chime, no boot, flashing GPU OK diag LED

What have I done???

Any help would be great
 

MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,792
667
Aussie in Japan
richgoga

Any RED LED lights inside the case ? especially on the CPU Tray.

Bolt tension ( CPU heatsink ) is crucial.

Is the cMP a DUAL or Single CPU ? ( make a SIGNATURE in your Macrumors profile. ).
 
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richgoga

macrumors regular
Original poster
Oct 11, 2013
148
58
richgoga

Any RED LED lights inside the case ? especially on the CPU Tray.

Bolt tension ( CPU heatsink ) is crucial.

Is the cMP a DUAL or Single CPU ? ( make a SIGNATURE in your Macrumors profile. ).

Hi, sorry. I’ll add a signature later on...

Single CPU, no red lights.

I’ve tightened the heatsink bolts until they stop, then a slight turn to finish (using hex key with a handle)

Interestingly, just powered on the Mac with no cpu installed an GPU ok light is now solid green. Obviously there’s a red light on the CPU tray now.

Will check socket pins... Hope I haven’t borked it.
 
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MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,792
667
Aussie in Japan
richgoga

Start again and also check your Northbridge heatsink spring-rivets.

Is your CPU lidded or un-lidded ?

As a test you could replace your original CPU just to verify that nothing is actually broken.
 
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richgoga

macrumors regular
Original poster
Oct 11, 2013
148
58
richgoga

Start again and also check your Northbridge heatsink spring-rivets.

Is your CPU lidded or un-lidded ?

As a test you could replace your original CPU just to verify that nothing is actually broken.

Thanks,

Rivets are fine. Still holding the Northbridge heatsink in place.

CPUs are lidded as this is a single cpu system.

Same issue with original CPU.

I’m at a loss.
 
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richgoga

macrumors regular
Original poster
Oct 11, 2013
148
58
Ok... now even stranger.

Removed the mobo battery. GPU OK light is no longer flashing. Just solid green.

Replaced mobo battery, GPU OK light still ok now.

So, no red lights, diag lights are all green. LED above power button is solid white. Fans all running at normal speed.

Just no chime or full boot.
 
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MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,792
667
Aussie in Japan
Have you done a PRAM reset ( 3 consecutive times ) ?

Important : Are you aware that installing LIDDED cpus in 4,1 requires a different technique to compensate for the difference in height between lidded / un-lidded cpus ?

Perhaps you need to read up on the above.

Oh, and also, if you want quick, informed replies to your questions . .please make a SIGNATURE in your Macrumors profile to show your particular mac Pro set up.

My SIG is at the end of this post as an example.
 
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richgoga

macrumors regular
Original poster
Oct 11, 2013
148
58
Have you done a PRAM reset ( 3 consecutive times ) ?

Important : Are you aware that installing LIDDED cpus in 4,1 requires a different technique to compensate for the difference in height between lidded / un-lidded cpus ?

Perhaps you need to read up on the above.

Oh, and also, if you want quick, informed replies to your questions . .please make a SIGNATURE in your Macrumors profile to show your particular mac Pro set up.

My SIG is at the end of this post as an example.

Thanks again for your reply

The single processor 4,1 shipped with LIDDED CPUs. Is the dual processor trays that used deLIDDED ones.

All guides state this and the swap is simple. Or it should have been. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/2009+Mac+Pro+CPU+upgrade+(single+socket)/100358

The CPU that came out and was working THIS MORNING is lidded.

Put back in... not working.
[doublepost=1566049120][/doublepost]
Thanks again for your reply

The single processor 4,1 shipped with LIDDED CPUs. Is the dual processor trays that used deLIDDED ones.

All guides state this and the swap is simple. Or it should have been. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/2009+Mac+Pro+CPU+upgrade+(single+socket)/100358

The CPU that came out and was working THIS MORNING is lidded.

Put back in... not working.
Also, I can’t do a PRAM reset if the Mac doesn’t POST or Chime
 
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MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,792
667
Aussie in Japan
OK, how was I to know that your cMP is a single CPU ? Make a sig anyway.

I'm assuming that your 4,1 was disconnected from power during the CPU changeover.

It seems obvious that the cause is something that you did during the process. You need to go back and list step by step everything that you did to point out any mis-steps.

All you can do now is disconnect the 4,1 'til tomorrow and in the meantime, search for similar problems in the Mac Pro threads.

Good Luck.
 
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richgoga

macrumors regular
Original poster
Oct 11, 2013
148
58
OK, how was I to know that your cMP is a single CPU ?
snip
Good Luck.

Umm... maybe because it was the first question you asked and the first I answered? :(

Thanks for the the insightful replies.

As for steps taken...
Mac was on, running Mojave
Shut down
Disconnect power cable
Remove processor tray
Remove heatsink
Cleaned old thermal paste
Remove old CPU
Used compressed air to clear dust
Checked Northbridge rivets as I know it’s a common problem.
Install new CPU
Add thermal paste
Reseat heatsink, taking care not to over tighten... stopped when the screws hit the stops.
Plug tray back in
Plug power cable back in
Turned on the Mac
Spent the day troubleshooting to no avail

That’s it. The same thing that several people have done several times.

To clarify what I’ve done to troubleshoot...
I followed the Minimum Configuration guide from here:
http://tim.id.au/laptops/apple/macpro/macpro_early2009.pdf#page32

Everything good (including diag LEDs), all the way to Point 11:
Expected behavior:
• The red-colored error LED on the processor board next to the memory slots at processor A should flash once only as the Mac Pro powers on.
• Startup tone heard (if not, reset PRAM and retest)
• Front and rear processor cage fans (and PCIe fan, if installed) should spin slowly

The led flashes and the fans spin as expected.

There is no chime.

And I can’t reset the PRAM because there is no chime! USB doesn’t work, therefore wired keyboard doesn’t work.

Is it possible to reset PRAM any other way? Internet doesn’t think so.

So, what next?

I know nobody with a 4,1 or 5,1 to test the tray.

Looks like I’m stuck.
 
Comment

Noiselab

macrumors newbie
Feb 23, 2014
8
3
Greece
Hi there,

I was wondering what actually happened with this issue richgoga.
Have you solved the problem?

I am having a similar one with my dual boot win10/OSX10.9.5 Mac Pro 4,1>5,1 – 2x 6 Core 2.4 GHz 32GB Ram.
Bought used 3 years ago from eBay, (already been firmware updated to 5,1 by the seller).

The issue started some months ago, with 2nd screen occasionally flickering for weeks. Then both. Using one screen the problem was not evident (flickering almost gone). Thought my NVidia GT120 was defective, but proved to be working fine in other machines).

====== Then one day black screen... and cMP never posted ever since:
“… No chime or full boot, …no red lights, diag lights all green, LED above power button solid white,… Fans all running at normal speed…”.

+ I replaced the PSU (with another one bought on eBay), but no fix. (Looks like it was not the PSU that caused the problem...)
+ Then I replaced the backplane board, as well as the CPUs on processor board, with a true 4,1 backplane board (not firmware upgraded) and a couple of original 4,1 cpus (2xE5520 at 2.26 GHz) - both of which bought from eBay.

===== And problem solved (?) . Surely it worked for weeks as an original 4,1 machine

And not only that: I then checked outside the cMP "box" the processor board on the old backplane board, with a GPU, using the spare PSU and it showed a “No Apple logo white screen” (i/o black screen), meaning that the old board had still life in it…Anyway, I let that for later consideration… because:

+ Then I did the netkas.org firmware upgrade to this newly installed board on the cMP, and all seemed fine showing now a "5,1" machine, evidencing in Hardware Overview:
...
Model Identifier: MacPro5,1
Processor Name: Quad-Core Intel Xeon
Processor Speed: 2.26 GHz
Number of Processors: 2
Total Number of Cores: 8
L2 Cache (per Core): 256 KB
L3 Cache (per Processor): 8 MB
Processor Interconnect Speed: 5.86 GT/s
Boot ROM Version: MP51.007F.B03
SMC Version (system): 1.39f5
SMC Version (processor tray): 1.39f5
...
Yet, installed RAM -despite PRAM reset- still showed 1066 MHz instead of their actual type 1333 MHz.
Expected (?) since there was still the 2xE5520 2.26 GHz on board…

+ So then I decided to put back the 2x 6 Core 2.4 GHz CPUs...

That cost me to go back and suffer again the original thread issue:
“No chime, no boot, flashing GPU OK diag LED” …
“Removed the mobo battery. GPU OK light is no longer flashing. Just solid green.
Replaced mobo battery, GPU OK light still ok now.
So, no red lights, diag lights are all green. LED above power button is solid white. Fans all running at normal speed.
Just no chime or full boot".

Same situation if I use the old backplane board and/or the 2xE5520 2.26 GHzCPUs

Note that there are no dust issues, Northbridge/rivets seem okay, checked any bended stuff..., exchanged CPUs with care, used Arctic MX-4 Thermal Compound Paste, no bleed, surfaces cleaned with isopropyl...

Not an expert to all this but studied a lot for months...
Yet, I'm afraid that I may have not always disconnected the machine from power during some works like taking out or replacing processor board ("...CPU changeover" as MIKX mentioned...)

Have I killed both backplane boards with faulty processor(s) and/or processor board and/or due to a faulty behaviour?

Does all that prove –as many folks write in various threads- that instead of buying parts (i.e. PSU, backplane board, and CPUs) one after another, I should have bought another machine in the first place to exchange parts to troubleshoot, and then sell the “innocent” spare ones or just keep them?
But how about a -let’s say- "defective" processor board electronically passing it’s "defect" to another machine …
I mean who would risk letting me put my processor board to their machine; I wonder if I, myself would risk doing this to a new machine I'd ever have bought...

Surely I am at a Loss (psychologically as well as economically)

Any ideas?

Greets,
Nick
 
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MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,792
667
Aussie in Japan
I suggest to those whose 4,1 or 5,1 cMPs are refusing to start to reduce their cMPs to their original state with a new, fresh FULL install of eg: Mojave with NO non-Apple apps installed to a spare internally installed SSD. This includes replacing the CPU(s) with the original lidless CPU(s) and removing & re-installing RAM + PCIe cards followed finally with this ..

( SHUT DOWN FIRST !)
NVRAM_PRAM_ResetMac.jpg


Definitely do not install Catalina for this fault finding regime. Mojave is mature, reliable.
 
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KeesMacPro

macrumors 6502a
Nov 7, 2019
794
256
@Noiselab


As far as I can tell from what you describe, I would revert the MP to a minimal state with the original(4core) CPU and GPU(GT120) (with the power cord disconnected:))and
-1 hdd/ssd (clean install) or a usb installer with El Capitan or Sierra.
(with this BootRom you can't boot Mojave and High Sierra)
-no peripherals, just a wired keyboard and mouse.
-no PCI cards etc just the original GT120(if possible)

See if it boots, if it does, go step by step testing-adding* -testing-adding-testing etc.

If there's still no sign , go step by step troubleshooting according to the technician guide for the MP 2009.

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see what OS you installed. If you would like to install High Sierra or Mojave , I recommend the BootRom thread and another about Mojave.
Hope to be of some help..

*= upgrade CPU , upgrade GPU etc etc
 
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Noiselab

macrumors newbie
Feb 23, 2014
8
3
Greece
I suggest to those whose 4,1 or 5,1 cMPs are refusing to start to reduce their cMPs to their original state with a new, fresh FULL install of eg: Mojave with NO non-Apple apps installed to a spare internally installed SSD. This includes replacing the CPU(s) with the original lidless CPU(s) and removing & re-installing RAM + PCIe cards followed finally with this ..

( SHUT DOWN FIRST !)
View attachment 920616

Definitely do not install Catalina for this fault finding regime. Mojave is mature, reliable.

Thank you for this, but unfortunately in my case I’m afraid that the boot/post procedure is somehow interrupted, and does not reach the point at which USB2 is initiated to allow the machine to receive keyboard commands…
 
Comment

Noiselab

macrumors newbie
Feb 23, 2014
8
3
Greece
@Noiselab


As far as I can tell from what you describe, I would revert the MP to a minimal state with the original(4core) CPU and GPU(GT120) (with the power cord disconnected:))and
-1 hdd/ssd (clean install) or a usb installer with El Capitan or Sierra.
(with this BootRom you can't boot Mojave and High Sierra)
-no peripherals, just a wired keyboard and mouse.
-no PCI cards etc just the original GT120(if possible)

See if it boots, if it does, go step by step testing-adding* -testing-adding-testing etc.

If there's still no sign , go step by step troubleshooting according to the technician guide for the MP 2009.

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see what OS you installed. If you would like to install High Sierra or Mojave , I recommend the BootRom thread and another about Mojave.
Hope to be of some help..

*= upgrade CPU , upgrade GPU etc etc

Thank you for the reply! I have already tried the minimal state suggestion. I even detached everything except for the keyboard + mouse hoping for a sign of life (i.e. to see even a “no apple logo” or a question mark white screen…) but in vain.

BTW I have always used the original GT120 only. The OS I use is 10.9.5 (the last compatible with my PT HD|10 DAW app...). Yet, I would proceed to a clean install of any OS suggested if that would "unlock" the machine...
But I forgot to mention that after I put back the 6 Core CPUs in the tray, beside the described issues, I also encountered the black screen problem again!!!

Thus, I am not sure whether the cMP can see a disc drive in a SATA bay, nor even a USB stick installer… As I said (in par#14) it seems that boot/post procedure does not reach the point at which USB2 is initiated to allow the machine to receive keyboard commands for resets, clean install, etc…

Before taking the risk to start buying parts I'd already gone the step-by-step troubleshooting according to the technician guide for the MP 2009. It had appeared not so helpful for my case; Every road map seemed to lead to a dead end. Of course now I am in a new same situation 😞. I should take a break and start all over again, or that could loop over and over eternally like Sisyphus from Greek mythology…🤔😊
 
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Noiselab

macrumors newbie
Feb 23, 2014
8
3
Greece
And something more general that could be a thread of its own, concerning how robust old machinery used to be:
The older the better

My respects to:
My Xserve 2,1 (a workhorse!!)
My cMP 3,1 (a dog of war!!)
 
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KeesMacPro

macrumors 6502a
Nov 7, 2019
794
256
I should take a break and start all over again, or that could loop over and over eternally like Sisyphus from Greek mythology…

I understand it looks like that...

On page 37-51 in the technician guide it describes how to troubleshoot this issue.
By checking the LEDs on the LogicBoard and/or ProcessorBoard when you power it on, it should be possible to identify the defective parts ..

It may take some time, but if you go step by step methodically..
 
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MIKX

macrumors 68000
Dec 16, 2004
1,792
667
Aussie in Japan
richgoga

Still no SIGNATURE. i am not a mind reader. LOOK AT MY SIGNATURE for hints on how to make it.

=================================

Noiselab

Get yourself something like an MSI RX 580 8gb then download dosdue1's Install Mojave app - then from that App's Tools Menu download the FULL 6.05 gb installer of Mojave 10.14.6.

Then install Mojave to a separate internally installed SSD/HDD.

Also .. shut down and do the TRIPLE CONSECUTIVE NVRAM RE-SET. ( read the small text ! )

NVRAM_PRAM_ResetMac.jpg


I would start from there to see if everything is working properly.

( get Mojave working first .. then you can go back to ancient 10.9.5 )
 
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KeesMacPro

macrumors 6502a
Nov 7, 2019
794
256
@MIKX

Could be the GPU ,but about Mojave :

Boot ROM Version: MP51.007F.B03

EDIT:
@Noiselab

I suggest going this route:
-PSU (one of them) check if it works?
-Logicboard (one of them) works?
-CPU board (one of them)-check Northbridge too - works?
-CPUs (original) work?
-GPU works?
-clean install of El Capitan
-upgraded CPUs work?
-restore 10.9.5 works?
 
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richgoga

macrumors regular
Original poster
Oct 11, 2013
148
58
richgoga

Still no SIGNATURE. i am not a mind reader. LOOK AT MY SIGNATURE for hints on how to make it.

Wow... Passive aggressive keyboard warrior. Seriously, you really think a signature is that important? Maybe you need to get out more or just frequent forums a bit less.

I didn’t even ask for your help. Get a life.

EDIT... it seems like keyboard warriors need hyper-specific wording...
I should have written “I didn’t even ask for your help In ThE lAsT tEn MoNtHs. Get a life.”
A thousand apologies, forumites.

[automerge]1591303751[/automerge]
Hi there,

I was wondering what actually happened with this issue

So, I fixed this by accident...

The cpu heatsink needed to be tightened pretty precisely across the four screws... in my case it was 4.5 turns. 4 turns or 5 turns resulted in no chime, no boot.
4.5 was the key... don’t even know how I fluked it, but it’s been fine ever since...

Hence not updating this thread... or even making a SiGnAtUrE... too busy working.

Good luck
 
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richgoga

macrumors regular
Original poster
Oct 11, 2013
148
58
Is this coming from the same person?
Wow... another one...

look at the date of my last post on this thread.
August 2019. That’s TEN MONTHS AGO.

Did I revive the thread? No.
Did I ask for further help? No.

MIKX & yourself might have been on here every day for the best part of a year... I’ve been busy.

You get yourself a life too. There’s more to the internet than Macrumors Forums. And... don’t tell anyone, but there’s a whole world outside too
 
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Noiselab

macrumors newbie
Feb 23, 2014
8
3
Greece
Wow... Passive aggressive keyboard warrior. Seriously, you really think a signature is that important? Maybe you need to get out more or just frequent forums a bit less.

I didn’t even ask for your help. Get a life.

EDIT... it seems like keyboard warriors need hyper-specific wording...
I should have written “I didn’t even ask for your help In ThE lAsT tEn MoNtHs. Get a life.”
A thousand apologies, forumites.

[automerge]1591303751[/automerge]


So, I fixed this by accident...

The cpu heatsink needed to be tightened pretty precisely across the four screws... in my case it was 4.5 turns. 4 turns or 5 turns resulted in no chime, no boot.
4.5 was the key... don’t even know how I fluked it, but it’s been fine ever since...

Hence not updating this thread... or even making a SiGnAtUrE... too busy working.

Good luck

Thank you so much for this info richgoga!!! It may save me time and money. I really appreciate !!!!
I shall update the thread if I got news.

Sure, MIKX could have avoided to be a little too obsessive with your missing sig all way through this thread.
But do not get irritated. Just assume everyone's got their own... style. And your style when you initiated the thread was of an accurate, understanding, kind, and polite, person... That is what KeesMacPro wanted to point out I guess.

Anyway! Peace and Love to all of you guys!! We need it so much during these days of divide...

Cheers,
Nick
 
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LogicalVue

macrumors member
Aug 28, 2007
99
66
USA (Maine)
I sympathize with @Noiselab as my 2009 Mac Pro stopped working a couple months ago with the exact same symptoms: No chime, dead USB, no way to get it to do anything.

The Mac Pro had its firmware and CPU upgraded several years ago and had been working just fine, then one day it didn't. All board LEDs look normal. For reference at the time of failure, it had these specs:
4.1 > 5.1, 6-core 3.2Ghz (W3670), 32GB RAM, AMD Radeon 570, macOS Mojave 10.14.6, PCI SSD.

I've pulled out all the parts that I could (HD, RAM, GPU), swapped in others, and even ordered a new power supply from eBay, but nothing changed the behavior. It's not worth it to me to try to replace either logic boards as I had already switched from this to a Mac mini i7 as my primary machine last year.

Now it's a mostly empty shell that is sitting next to my desk where it serves as a slightly uncomfortable guest seat. I hope you have better luck figuring out what's wrong with yours.
 
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