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Help me decide between nMP, iMac, or other solution
- Thread starter MMcCraryNJ
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Form factor, thermal control and proprietary connectors mostly.
I know that car analogy are bad, but the nMP is just about the same then buying a car with no after market/third party replacement parts availability and customization.
I can change my mobo in my PC (or pay someone to do it if I couldn't do it myself) and keep my drives, gpu and other accessory for a fraction of the cost of a new system and be upgraded to the latest and fastest. I can replace the GPU with off the shelves one and chose what brand I want.*I don't have to wait for Dell to make some available if they do at all.
Look, the nMP is a good machine for specialized task, but it has limited upgradability, just like the rest of Apple computers and device. I like Apple especially for artistic task like music and painting, but when I buy one I already know that if I need something better later on I'll have to replace it by a new one unlike my PCs where I can just pull it apart and rebuild it with better components.
I thought you referred to the next generation CPUs and I wasn't quite sure what Apple did there.
Well, you know this but probably forgot. When you decide to upgrade your PC MB you will find out that your old CPU is no longer supported and you need a new CPU and with that new memory to go along. After a while you will realise that your GPU is too slow and doesn't really match your new MB/CPU/Memory and you will probably upgrade that as well.
Oh...almost forgot the new MB/CPU requires end user beta testing (BIOS) and an addition 12Vxx line that your old power supply doesn't have and you need to upgrade the PS too. BIOS Version 8938 appears to be stable will be soon available for testing.
It's great to upgrade and tinker around for some people that enjoy just the process itself, run benchmarks all day long and overclock this and overclock that together with the latest registry hacks to find an extra 5% performance - this can be fun but I really don't think these are primary reasons someone decides to buy a Mac.
Well, you know this but probably forgot. When you decide to upgrade your PC MB you will find out that your old CPU is no longer supported and you need a new CPU and with that new memory to go along. After a while you will realise that your GPU is too slow and doesn't really match your new MB/CPU/Memory and you will probably upgrade that as well.
Oh...almost forgot the new MB/CPU requires end user beta testing (BIOS) and an addition 12Vxx line that your old power supply doesn't have and you need to upgrade the PS too. BIOS Version 8938 appears to be stable will be soon available for testing.
It's great to upgrade and tinker around for some people that enjoy just the process itself, run benchmarks all day long and overclock this and overclock that together with the latest registry hacks to find an extra 5% performance - this can be fun but I really don't think these are primary reasons someone decides to buy a Mac.
I thought you referred to the next generation CPUs and I wasn't quite sure what Apple did there.
Well, you know this but probably forgot. When you decide to upgrade your PC MB you will find out that your old CPU is no longer supported and you need a new CPU and with that new memory to go along. After a while you will realise that your GPU is too slow and doesn't really match your new MB/CPU/Memory and you will probably upgrade that as well.
Oh...almost forgot the new MB/CPU requires end user beta testing (BIOS) and an addition 12Vxx line that your old power supply doesn't have and you need to upgrade the PS too. BIOS Version 8938 appears to be stable will be soon available for testing.
It's great to upgrade and tinker around for some people that enjoy just the process itself, run benchmarks all day long and overclock this and overclock that together with the latest registry hacks to find an extra 5% performance - this can be fun but I really don't think these are primary reasons someone decides to buy a Mac.
First, the main reason to replace your motherboard is to accomodate a new CPU, you just don't care about your old one being compatible.
Second, you must not have upgrade a pc in the last 10 years or so because BIOS problem has been innexistant for quite a while. I manage a park of about 25k PCs and haven't come across a bios problem for quite a while.
Third, you are the perfect client for Apple since you don't want to upgrade your machine yourself. This is fine as it is. But then again, what are you doing replying to some post about the upgradability of the nMP if you just admitted that you don't care about it?
And I say it again, the nMP is a good machine for specific task. It just has restricted upgradability, just like the rest of Apple devices. Nothing more, nothing less.
That is quite an impressive number of PCs you manage. How many of those will you upgrade the MB/CPU and how many will you just replace when the time comes?
I don't have it, as I set my MP up in mid-2012.Just looked at the Addonics link. Cool. Do you have this set up in your MP? How is the performance? Am imagining four of the Samsung mSATA SSDs in RAID 0...
Note that the chipset used in the mentioned card only allows 2x PCIe speed, so four MSATA drives will theoretically more than max out the card. I still like the approach though.
I thought you referred to the next generation CPUs and I wasn't quite sure what Apple did there.
Well, you know this but probably forgot. When you decide to upgrade your PC MB you will find out that your old CPU is no longer supported and you need a new CPU and with that new memory to go along. After a while you will realise that your GPU is too slow and doesn't really match your new MB/CPU/Memory and you will probably upgrade that as well.
Oh...almost forgot the new MB/CPU requires end user beta testing (BIOS) and an addition 12Vxx line that your old power supply doesn't have and you need to upgrade the PS too. BIOS Version 8938 appears to be stable will be soon available for testing.
It's great to upgrade and tinker around for some people that enjoy just the process itself, run benchmarks all day long and overclock this and overclock that together with the latest registry hacks to find an extra 5% performance - this can be fun but I really don't think these are primary reasons someone decides to buy a Mac.
I'm fairly new here and I'm sure the upgradability of the nMP has been discussed before. However I do think the upgradability tuxton86 refers to can be beneficial. Take the following benchmark from Anandtech:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7603/mac-pro-review-late-2013/6
With FCP the 2009 MP originally benchmarked at 24.53 minutes. With an updated video card that same system benchmarked at 6.81 minutes. A significant time saving with just a video card replacement. The nMP benchmarked at 3.73 minutes. The five year old system takes slightly less than twice the time as the new system. Quite an accomplishment given it is using a single GPU and not the top end card.
What upgrade options will be available for the nMP? Only time will tell. But I am disappointed the nMP cannot be upgraded in the same manner as the previous one.
Trolling fail is fail...
In the corporate world you don't upgrade your computer to prolong their useful life, but in the personal computing world people DO upgrade their machine. If nobody did, then Asus, MSI, Gigabyte and many other tech company wouldn't still be in business.
The fact that you lack the skill or interest to upgrade your computer is your problem not anybody else.
I went with the hackintosh route myself. Could write a ton about it, but here is the main things.
Pros:
- A lot cheaper. I spent about $3k on my hackintosh, but then I went with dual GPU's, faster (= more expensive) memory for overclocking, expensive SSD:s (Samsung 840 pro series) and so on. Could have built it far cheaper but wanted to build a good computer that will last. Skipped the Xeon processor though as I don't need that much multicore performance. A Pro is very expensive where I live, 8-core with 32/512 GB and D700 is about $10k, so I still consider it cheap.
- Expandability. I love being able to swap out disks, gpu and similar stuff if/when needed. Also PICe-slots is very nice.
- Performance. As I don't do CAD / Video work, an overclocked 4-core haswell is faster than a 4-core Xeon. Dual 280X cards seem to outrun D700 in everything but CAD-type work too from the benchmarks I've run/seen.
- Compatibility. I was expecting more issues, but it works 100% for me. All video out ports, usb, sleep, graphics and such - never had any issue, works as well as my old iMac.
Cons:
- Not as good design. Even if I like my case, there's no doubt a Mac Pro is better looking.
- Noise. While my hackintosh is very quitet (can't hear it) when doing normal work, if you push it hard (say, gaming, crypto mining or other things that makes the gpu's work 100%), they gpu fans are quite audible. Not sure how much a Pro sounds under full load, but I imagine less.
- Minor manual fixing. For me, after upgrading to a new OS X version, I have to resinstall the sound driver to get proper sound. That means start Multibeast, select "audio driver" and click install. Takes about 10 seconds total, so I can live with that.
- Research. If you want a hackintosh, you need parts that work well together, and are compatible with OS X. Some research is required, you can't just get any hardware.
- Installation. Takes a while to build the computer yourself, and the installation is a bit (not very) trickier than installing a regular mac. Personally I like tinkering with computers so I built it mostly as a for-fun test project. But it turned out really well in the end.
- Future compatibility. While it hasn't been an issue so far (usually things work better with new os versions, not worse), you never know. Be careful with upgrades.
I've posted a build log here if you want to read more about my experiences.
Pros:
- A lot cheaper. I spent about $3k on my hackintosh, but then I went with dual GPU's, faster (= more expensive) memory for overclocking, expensive SSD:s (Samsung 840 pro series) and so on. Could have built it far cheaper but wanted to build a good computer that will last. Skipped the Xeon processor though as I don't need that much multicore performance. A Pro is very expensive where I live, 8-core with 32/512 GB and D700 is about $10k, so I still consider it cheap.
- Expandability. I love being able to swap out disks, gpu and similar stuff if/when needed. Also PICe-slots is very nice.
- Performance. As I don't do CAD / Video work, an overclocked 4-core haswell is faster than a 4-core Xeon. Dual 280X cards seem to outrun D700 in everything but CAD-type work too from the benchmarks I've run/seen.
- Compatibility. I was expecting more issues, but it works 100% for me. All video out ports, usb, sleep, graphics and such - never had any issue, works as well as my old iMac.
Cons:
- Not as good design. Even if I like my case, there's no doubt a Mac Pro is better looking.
- Noise. While my hackintosh is very quitet (can't hear it) when doing normal work, if you push it hard (say, gaming, crypto mining or other things that makes the gpu's work 100%), they gpu fans are quite audible. Not sure how much a Pro sounds under full load, but I imagine less.
- Minor manual fixing. For me, after upgrading to a new OS X version, I have to resinstall the sound driver to get proper sound. That means start Multibeast, select "audio driver" and click install. Takes about 10 seconds total, so I can live with that.
- Research. If you want a hackintosh, you need parts that work well together, and are compatible with OS X. Some research is required, you can't just get any hardware.
- Installation. Takes a while to build the computer yourself, and the installation is a bit (not very) trickier than installing a regular mac. Personally I like tinkering with computers so I built it mostly as a for-fun test project. But it turned out really well in the end.
- Future compatibility. While it hasn't been an issue so far (usually things work better with new os versions, not worse), you never know. Be careful with upgrades.
I've posted a build log here if you want to read more about my experiences.
Do you mean PCIe 2.0? AFAIK the PCIe specification (whether 1.x, 2.x, 3.0 or 4.0) only allows for x1, x4, x8, and x16 lanes.
Let's get the facts straight... Typically no Mac or PC can be upgraded to a newer generation of CPU thanks to Intel constantly changing the socket which necessitates a new main-board. The nMP and Apples design of it, is no different than any other Ivy Bridge computer in that regard.
On the other hand you can upgrade the CPU to others of the current generation and again, this no different than any other Intel platform.
I wouldn't say constantly... We got a pretty good run with the sockets presently used.
And there is a difference compared to a PC in that you can replace the mobo in the PC.
I've read that PCI 2.0, 2x is the max throughput of the controller on the card.
Same here. When it came time to upgrade my old iMac, I opted to go for an actual MBP and since it's so cheap to build... a Hackintosh. Rather than having to pick between either a MacBook or a high end MP.
There are pro's and con's to the Hackintosh route. The pro of course is the cost. If you do your research, you can build one that works identically more or less, to an actual Mac. For example, mine has bluetooth, wifi, thunderbolt, etc. working perfectly out of the box. You can run and do anything an actual Mac can do. If you research and buy smart, you don't have to worry about any of that kext stuff. But if you don't do that, you'll have a nightmare on your hands. Some other advantages are built in Blu-Ray, storage capacity (I have 16TB right now, love it!), and expandability.
Cons... You get what you pay for. It's cheaper, but the machine is cheaper too. You don't get the Apple build quality, you don't get the care for the machine. There's every chance you'll build a machine for one version of OS X and everything will work natively, and then the next release will require a new rig or lots of kext work to make work (or like the last few, you get lucky and it works natively still). You just don't know. The last few releases have made Hacks work exponentially better, not worse, but 10.10 could kill them all. You get the clumsy cables, the mess, the noise, etc. of a PC.
If you can at all make it work without breaking yourself, go for the MP.
Hmm, that's very strange. I wonder why they would limit it like that when 4 SATA III drives set up in RAID 0 could yield up to 2.4 GB/s. Surely they knew that some users would be doing exactly that kind of setup and would want to take full advantage of that kind of speed...?
Even if they stepped up to PCIe 2.0 x4, their card would be able to handle up to 2.0 GB/s. As it is they've apparently cut that speed potential in half by only allowing x2, so the card can only allow up to 1 GB/s.
Oh well. Surely other manufacturers will decide differently on similar cards...
Most corporates simply get rid and buy new when the time comes. Upgrading is not common in this scenario.
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Then you might as well get a whole new PC. Cost wise, you will be pretty much at the same place if you sell the Mac and buy a new one every couple of years instead of upgrading the CPU/Motherboard and keeping your GPUs/ internal storage. Most people also don't have the knowledge, or the time, to change the CPU and motherboard. Saving pennies and wasting time is just poor economics.
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