Help with a RAID solution

[UltraNEO*]

As I commented previously, I also had a similar bad experiencewith my docking station. One of my Seagate disks died after using it on the dock for some hours (I was moving data to it through the slow USB 2.0 connection) splitted in two days. After that, I didn't trust on the docking station anymore. I can't see any mark on the dock caused by hot, but I can remember that any disk inserted on it increased its temperature quickly.

Thank you a LOT for all your recommendations. I have now a better perspective of my alternatives. Will post whichever solution I end with, to feed the knowledge base

I just don't trust them at all! Just looking at the design of them is enough to make me cringe. I prefer the horizontal method where you use a USB/FireWire ↔ SATA cable and have the drives housed in a HDD silicone sleeve that's stackable.

 

[nanofrog]

joaoferro37, if I finally decide to go with the High Point or Areca RAID card plus enclosure, I've seen that both cards have Mini-SAS interfaces, but the enclosures has eSATA interfaces. Should I use some of this? (wow! $74 for a cable!):

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Highpoint Technologies/MS1MES/

Plus, these cards only have external Mini-SAS interfaces, so for the internal disks, I suposse will need to use software RAID. If I go with the hardware solution, wouldn't be better one of these? Will I be able to connect the internal disks to the card using the iPass connector (mini-sas to mini-sas)?

RocketRAID 2684
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Highpoint Technologies/RRAID2684/

I think that the iPass cable is too short to reach this tiny card. I guess will need a longer cable.

I have one big doubt about the use of the internal disks through a RAID card. Does that connect ALL the SATA interfaces on the Mac Pro to the RAID card? I mean, not only the SATA interfaces for the 4 drive bays, but also the extra SATA interfaces on the motherboard.

Thanks!

Just keep in mind, that the RR2684 is a Fake RAID controller. That is, it's just a SAS chip on a board, and uses the systems resources + drivers. Also, it's not able to boot OS X. It can however, boot Windows and Linux.

As for SATA drives, the max cable limit is 2.0m for active systems, 1.0m passive. The cable length is all cables, including those in an enclosure, so be careful. If the cable's too long, the array won't be stable (constant dropouts).

Hope this helps.

 

[joaoferro37]

don't you just love to surf on this forum.
a lot of pros here.

 

[nanofrog]

don't you just love to surf on this forum.
a lot of pros here.

I make posts like the one above for a reason. Making a mistake with RAID gets expensive, and fast (restocking fees, if the seller allow returns + S/H). Then there's the headaches involved...

 

[carlosparamio]

Ok, so I think I've already decided the final configuration to use. I wanted to share it with us before start to collect the items, so you can give me your oppinions (I have to say that people on this forum are really amazing, thanks!).

- Velociraptor 300GB 10k rpm under the optical drive, as boot drive.
- RocketRaid 4320 (PCIe x8, 2 SFF-8087, 1.2Ghz, 256MB, online capacity expansion)
- Sans Digital TowerRaid TR4X (4 bays, SFF-8088 interface to host, Mac Pro like design)
- SFF-8087 to SFF-8088 converter, to make one of the internal Mini-SAS connectors on the RAID card to external.
- SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 cable with enough length to connect the RAID card to the 4 internal bays of the Mac Pro.
- SFF-8087 to 4 SATA cable to connect to the iPass connector where the original Apple's cable was connected. This way, I avoid using the ODD_SATA connectors on the motherboard, which gives problems when using with Bootcamp. One of the SATA connectors will be plugged to the Velociraptor for booting purposes. The other 3 are free for expansion (maybe one more drive under the optical drive, or a Blue-Ray unit with SATA interface... things like that).
- 8 Western Digital WD20EADS 2TB (I already have 2 of them, so 6 more). 4 of them on the internal bays, and the other 4 on the enclosure. Both arrays on RAID5 with spare disk. Maybe I will buy just up to 6 drives, mount them on groups of 3, and leave the empty bays (internal & external) for expansion later, if I can reach all with my budget. Because the RockerRaid has the online capacity expansion feature, I should be able to add the 4th disks on each array at any moment without removing data. What I'm not sure is if I will be able to activate the spare disk then, because with an initial configuration of 3 disks, I don't think will be able to activate it at the beginning.

This will give me ~6 TB of data capacity, and ~6 TB for backups, which should be enough for some years When I need to increase the capacity in the future, 3 TB disks could have appeared, so I probably wouldn't have to buy a SAS expander plus extra enclosures.

How does this sound? Thanks!

 

[gugucom]

....maybe one more drive under the optical drive, or a Blue-Ray unit with SATA interface... things like that..

The RAID sounds very nice. Just one thought on the Blu-Ray. If you want play back on that you will have to run it with Windows and that will require the AHCI driver that you seem to have a problem with.

 

[carlosparamio]

The RAID sounds very nice. Just one thought on the Blu-Ray. If you want play back on that you will have to run it with Windows and that will require the AHCI driver that you seem to have a problem with.

AFAIK, that only happens if you connect it to the ODD_SATA ports. But with a cable connected to the main SATA controller on the Mac Pro (given that the internal disks are now managed by the card), it should not have any problem, I think.

 

[nanofrog]

Ok, so I think I've already decided the final configuration to use. I wanted to share it with us before start to collect the items, so you can give me your oppinions (I have to say that people on this forum are really amazing, thanks!).

- Velociraptor 300GB 10k rpm under the optical drive, as boot drive.
- RocketRaid 4320 (PCIe x8, 2 SFF-8087, 1.2Ghz, 256MB, online capacity expansion)
- Sans Digital TowerRaid TR4X (4 bays, SFF-8088 interface to host, Mac Pro like design)
- SFF-8087 to SFF-8088 converter, to make one of the internal Mini-SAS connectors on the RAID card to external.
- SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 cable with enough length to connect the RAID card to the 4 internal bays of the Mac Pro.
- SFF-8087 to 4 SATA cable to connect to the iPass connector where the original Apple's cable was connected. This way, I avoid using the ODD_SATA connectors on the motherboard, which gives problems when using with Bootcamp. One of the SATA connectors will be plugged to the Velociraptor for booting purposes. The other 3 are free for expansion (maybe one more drive under the optical drive, or a Blue-Ray unit with SATA interface... things like that).
- 8 Western Digital WD20EADS 2TB (I already have 2 of them, so 6 more). 4 of them on the internal bays, and the other 4 on the enclosure. Both arrays on RAID5 with spare disk. Maybe I will buy just up to 6 drives, mount them on groups of 3, and leave the empty bays (internal & external) for expansion later, if I can reach all with my budget. Because the RockerRaid has the online capacity expansion feature, I should be able to add the 4th disks on each array at any moment without removing data. What I'm not sure is if I will be able to activate the spare disk then, because with an initial configuration of 3 disks, I don't think will be able to activate it at the beginning.

This will give me ~6 TB of data capacity, and ~6 TB for backups, which should be enough for some years When I need to increase the capacity in the future, 3 TB disks could have appeared, so I probably wouldn't have to buy a SAS expander plus extra enclosures.

How does this sound? Thanks!

DITCH the CONVERTER! They're NOT STABLE with SATA drives. No one that's tried them has had good results.

Use an SFF-8087 to SFF-8088 cable to go from one of the internal MiniSAS ports to the enclosure. Or, order the RR4321 (hybrid, SFF-8088 + SFF-8087).

As for the drives, SAS is really picky about SATA drives. You'd need to use a WD2002FYBS (2.0TB) with that card the WD20EADS won't (Not on the Compatibility List). There may be a way to get the WD20EADS to work, by modifying the TLER settings in the firmware, but there's no guarantee it will work.

You'd be better off using them as backup drives of the logic board controller.

Why use the Velociraptor as a boot drive?

You can place the OS on the array, and get the performance benefits for the OS as well. Also, when you RAID drives, the random access times improve (load sharing). You may be better off with the VR. I'm just not sure you'll benefit much from it, as you indicated you don't need super high performance levels.

Yet the card and other gear is some of the fastest around, as is the connection methods.

 

[carlosparamio]

I selected the RocketRaid 4320 + the SFF-8087 to SFF-8088 adapter instead of the RocketRaid 4321 (which already has 1 internal and 1 external Mini-SAS connectors) because Newegg has an extraordinary offer: $299 (while the 4321 costs around $650, and just add 256 MB more of cache AFAIK). But I've now noticed that they don't ship to Spain

OWC serves the 4320 to Spain, but at $679, which makes me think again on the 4321. Do you know any other provider which could serve the 4320 at a lower price?

 

[carlosparamio]

DITCH the CONVERTER! They're NOT STABLE with SATA drives. No one that's tried them has had good results.

Use an SFF-8087 to SFF-8088 cable to go from one of the internal MiniSAS ports to the enclosure. Or, order the RR4321 (hybrid, SFF-8088 + SFF-8087).

I might finally order the RR4321, because I can't find the RR4320 at NewEgg's price on any other provider that ships to Spain. MANY THANKS for alert me.

As for the drives, SAS is really picky about SATA drives. You'd need to use a WD2002FYBS (2.0TB) with that card the WD20EADS won't (Not on the Compatibility List). There may be a way to get the WD20EADS to work, by modifying the TLER settings in the firmware, but there's no guarantee it will work.

DOH! All my plans to the trash. The WD2002FYBS are way more expensive than the WD20EADS. Maybe I should start to see some alternatives (1.5 TB drives), but it's a pain to discard now the WD20EADS (I bought my 2 units just some months ago).

Why use the Velociraptor as a boot drive?

You can place the OS on the array, and get the performance benefits for the OS as well. Also, when you RAID drives, the random access times improve (load sharing). You may be better off with the VR. I'm just not sure you'll benefit much from it, as you indicated you don't need super high performance levels.

I wanted to have a separated boot drive out of the array, mounted under the optical drive, so it doesn't interfere with my data array. This way I can recreate the array all the times I need without losing my system installation. Also, this solution seems to remove headaches with the use of Bootcamp inside an array.

Anyway, I already bought the Velociraptor, so it will stay with me But thanks for the advice!

 

[gugucom]

AFAIK, that only happens if you connect it to the ODD_SATA ports. But with a cable connected to the main SATA controller on the Mac Pro (given that the internal disks are now managed by the card), it should not have any problem, I think.

I would not bet money on that! Your 2008 Mac Pro is on the same chipset that my 2006 uses. They only changed the EFI from 32 to 64 bit. AFAIK the SATA controller (ESB2) will run all 6 SATA channels in the same way. Due to the way EFI presents the MBR in the GPT and MBR table all Windows versions will only load legacy drivers. To activate AHCI (which is needed for Blu-Ray drives) the MBR needs to be patched.

 

[carlosparamio]

The Mac Pro motherboard also doesn't appear on the Highpoint compatibility list, but this card officially works well with the Mac Pro, isn't it?

 

[nanofrog]

I selected the RocketRaid 4320 + the SFF-8087 to SFF-8088 adapter instead of the RocketRaid 4321 (which already has 1 internal and 1 external Mini-SAS connectors) because Newegg has an extraordinary offer: $299 (while the 4321 costs around $650, and just add 256 MB more of cache AFAIK). But I've now noticed that they don't ship to Spain

OWC serves the 4320 to Spain, but at $679, which makes me think again on the 4321. Do you know any other provider which could serve the 4320 at a lower price?

Not available on span.com or ewiz.com, but I did find both models on pc-pitstop.com. RR4320, RR4321, and they do ship internationally.

I can take a look around for other vendors, but I don't usually look for those that ship overseas. Nothing UK/EU based you can find?

As for drives, it's a SAS card, and they're beyond picky. That translates to enterprise drives, and more importantly, SATA models need to be on the compatibility list I linked, or they may not work (unstable). This is primarily due to the recovery timings set in consumer drives. It's just a fact you'll have to deal with if you use a SAS card, no matter who makes it. As it happens, the card you've selected is made by Areca. Highpoint doesn't design or manufacture any of their gear.

I understand about the separate boot drive, but specifics do vary. Sometimes it's better to have it that way, other times on the array. As for Boot Camp, it doesn't mix with RAID at all.

You can use the same drives and use partitions for separate arrays (including separate OS's). This works on hardware solutions, as the card has control, not the OS. So the issues gugucom (software RAID + Boot Camp) experienced wouldn't apply here. Unfortunately, Highpoint's cards can only contain one firmware version. That translates to booting via EFI or BIOS. EFI only supports OS X, and BIOS supports Windows and Linux booting, and you pick one version or the other. So it's unable to boot both Windows and OS X.

If you decide you want that feature, then you're going to have to look elsewhere. I'd recommend Areca, as the only other is Atto Technologies, and they're usually more expensive.

 

[nanofrog]

The Mac Pro motherboard also doesn't appear on the Highpoint compatibility list, but this card officially works well with the Mac Pro, isn't it?

Other members have used the RR43xx cards successfully, so no need to worry. Mother board lists are less important than the Drive section. Most boards will work, and the short list is usually due to the lack of "test subjects". As most issues are drive related, it takes precedence. You can find other drives that will work, but it's a gamble, as you've just become a Beta tester for that drive. If it works, great. If not, you then have to deal with returns and restocking fees, assuming you can even send it back.

For example, I like the prices I find on ewiz, but the RAID cards I usually go for are listed as special items, and have no ability to return unless defective, and they only send another (no model swaps or money back). So watch the fine print.

 

[gugucom]

http://www.webconnexxion.com/raid/index.php?cPath=86

http://www.webconnexxion.com/raid/product_info.php?cPath=86&products_id=960

could be a European supplier

 

[carlosparamio]

http://www.webconnexxion.com/raid/index.php?cPath=86

http://www.webconnexxion.com/raid/product_info.php?cPath=86&products_id=960

could be a European supplier

Thanks a LOT, man!

 

[nanofrog]

Using Xe.com to convert and multiply by 1.2 (VAT), the links in the previous post are less expensive (pc-pitstop.com). You'd need to check out the addition of shipping though, as that could eat it.

 

[carlosparamio]

I've noticed that buying the RocketRaid 4322 (with two external SFF-8088 ports) instead of the 4321 (hybrid), and a bigger enclosure that requires double SFF-8088 connection (Sans Digital TR8X, 8 bays), has a really similar cost to the more complex solution I posted before, plus it will leave me with the internal bays free.

Probably I would go with this instead, sounds more reasonable, don't you think?

 

[joaoferro37]

If you are happy with non-port multiplier box, you can try http://www.timelinedigitalinc.com/sohotank-4bay-esata-enclosure-support-jbod-p-563.html
and use the break out cable.

 

[nanofrog]

If you are happy with non-port multiplier box, you can try http://www.timelinedigitalinc.com/sohotank-4bay-esata-enclosure-support-jbod-p-563.html
and use the break out cable.

Using enclosures that lack the PM chips will run faster, as you get a dedicated port per drive. So higher bandwidth for additional parallelism (more drives = faster, as there's additional units to divide the load).