Which is why my C++ class, computer information systems, and the technology classes all use HPs, right?
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Henrico County Schools Dumps iBook Program After 4 Years, Ge...
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Which is why my C++ class, computer information systems, and the technology classes all use HPs, right?
Out$tanding relation$hip, eh?
Sounds like someone is getting their pockets greased. "How dare you make my child use those crummy toy MAC's [sic]!"
I live right next to it.
I live right next to Henrico County schools, and it was killing me these past few years, I wanted an iBook. But alas, they've gone the way of Chesterfield and are getting Dells.
Oh well. Thier loss.
I live right next to Henrico County schools, and it was killing me these past few years, I wanted an iBook. But alas, they've gone the way of Chesterfield and are getting Dells.
Oh well. Thier loss.
Phatpat said:
Too bad it doesn't equate for jobs in the US. Schools and other government/public entities should require that the support be done by US based support agents.
For those of you not in sales, you win some, you lose some. Especially dealing with government entities. Generally, to get the bid, as a sales rep you buddy up to whomever writes the bid specs or whomever has influence over. Ideally you schmooze the buyer to the point he/she asks for your help in specing it out. Apple may have won the first round but it also now means its' competitor now knows where he has to be next time, throw in some inside information from techies all too willing to get Dell/Windows back in, you got a deal.
macnulty said:
How well I know that. Used to work for a government reseller. Lost a $500K bid (that was to go on an exclusive NIH BPA, that only a handful had) on the basis of of just like $750! In the end it was not awarded through the NIH BPA!
We had worked many hours (IIRC about 30 to 40 hours) to secure the info, specs, placement on the NIH BPA, and support for the bid). Only to lose it for a lousy $750! From a "bidder" (I placed it in quotes for a reason) that was not on the NIH BPA, but a different contract. In the end I worked hard only to deliver the info needed by his "preferred" vendor!
This was the only time that I totally lost it at work. I had hurled a White Pages directory (not the first time things have been thrown by the sales staff after losing a bid - but I was known as the "sane one". Not to mention along with many choices words
) across the work area. I went on to two other Gov't resellers before deciding that sanity was a better choice - over better paychecks. If the taxpayers only knew what money was being wasted.
I worked for a photo reseller that in the September "buying spree" back in the '80', would charge LIST price for photo gear. Just an FYI, nobody pays list price for photo gear!
Glad that I now work in retail, and only have to worry about matching internet pricing.
I live near henrico and we were thinking about moving there to get our kids into a mac friendly school... ahh not now.
but here is my thought about the dell. this is going to be great for the kids who want to be "elite". if i was one of them, i would grab a copy of wintenals administrative tools, change the admin password, give me and all my friends admin rights to the computer and begin to really have fun. then i could get a packet sniffer and watch the watchers. oh and if i was really smart i would pay for trillian pro then me and my friends could chat while we are supposed to be learning in class. the 2 features that it supports is serverless IMing and encripted IMing - perfect for boring teachers.
I can just picture all these parents saying "gosh, why didn't the just get the kids a dell?" now they are going to see why. In the coming year i am going to hear first hand about this as my brother's wife works at one of henrico's high schools. i feel sorry for her now.
actually, i wish i was in high school again, it could be fun.
-Eric
but here is my thought about the dell. this is going to be great for the kids who want to be "elite". if i was one of them, i would grab a copy of wintenals administrative tools, change the admin password, give me and all my friends admin rights to the computer and begin to really have fun. then i could get a packet sniffer and watch the watchers. oh and if i was really smart i would pay for trillian pro then me and my friends could chat while we are supposed to be learning in class. the 2 features that it supports is serverless IMing and encripted IMing - perfect for boring teachers.
I can just picture all these parents saying "gosh, why didn't the just get the kids a dell?" now they are going to see why. In the coming year i am going to hear first hand about this as my brother's wife works at one of henrico's high schools. i feel sorry for her now.
actually, i wish i was in high school again, it could be fun.
-Eric
I dunno...I suppose it's sad that they are switching over, but in all fairness, they probably didn't have the best experience with Apple.
The thing is, they were stuck with Appleworks for one, which in all honesty just isn't a patch on Office. Thats not to say they couldn't get office, but the Windows version is much easier to come by (OEM eddition, illegal downloads, friends copies) and thats not Apple's fault - it's just that to every mac, there are like 32 windows PC's so they have the majority.
Secondly, Mac's do take time to get used to. Now, I may come under a clutter of abuse saying this, but I found macs harder to use! That is because Ive been trained on PC's since I was 6, and it was unnatural not having to madly click away in the hope you'd find what you are looking for! I suspect that the parents of these kids certainly haven't given the Apple a chance - certainly not in the majority. Thats because they won't be using them, but even in this day and age, parents decide!
Thirdly, ibooks are slow. I mean, they really are. Four years old/maybe three - but try and open office on one of those bad boys. Its takes like 20 seconds to load up the introduction window just to click on new document. I can justify the slower speed by more productivity, but can school kids really when in reality they're mostly going on limewire to search for the really good porn?
Please don't hurl abuse!! I love my mac - and I wouldn't change it for the world. But I think in order to make the switch, you do have to put time and effort into doing it. While there may be one amazing program on the mac that does what you want, there are a thousand medicore ones for Windows. Unfortunately, people are lazy, and I think in this instance, it has shown that not everybody can put up with making the switch.
The thing is, they were stuck with Appleworks for one, which in all honesty just isn't a patch on Office. Thats not to say they couldn't get office, but the Windows version is much easier to come by (OEM eddition, illegal downloads, friends copies) and thats not Apple's fault - it's just that to every mac, there are like 32 windows PC's so they have the majority.
Secondly, Mac's do take time to get used to. Now, I may come under a clutter of abuse saying this, but I found macs harder to use! That is because Ive been trained on PC's since I was 6, and it was unnatural not having to madly click away in the hope you'd find what you are looking for! I suspect that the parents of these kids certainly haven't given the Apple a chance - certainly not in the majority. Thats because they won't be using them, but even in this day and age, parents decide!
Thirdly, ibooks are slow. I mean, they really are. Four years old/maybe three - but try and open office on one of those bad boys. Its takes like 20 seconds to load up the introduction window just to click on new document. I can justify the slower speed by more productivity, but can school kids really when in reality they're mostly going on limewire to search for the really good porn?
Please don't hurl abuse!! I love my mac - and I wouldn't change it for the world. But I think in order to make the switch, you do have to put time and effort into doing it. While there may be one amazing program on the mac that does what you want, there are a thousand medicore ones for Windows. Unfortunately, people are lazy, and I think in this instance, it has shown that not everybody can put up with making the switch.
mmcxiiad said:
It's going to be the most glorious meltdown in high school history for some of the very reasons you mention.
I'm a tech director for a school district and we have been thinking about a 1-1 for our students. We've actually hosted the folks from Henrico here, and spent considerable time on it. Although nobody embraces technology more than we do, my GUT feeling is that a 1-1 is an incredible waste of money for the taxpayers, a drain on almost everything I do with the other systems, and unless it's embraced school-wide and not just with a few teachers, that it will actually diminish learning. While a tech guy, I LIKE chalk-time, eye-contact, a 1-1 with the teacher and student. In my high school we have about 350 laptops in use. Just look at Remote Desktop sometime, and tell me that Flash games, skateboarding sites and Hotmail are part of the curriculum. Whereas in our teaching labs the kids are on task and REALLY learning about GoLive, inDesign and the like. All the screens face the teacher. The kids are ENGAGED, not sitting in the back of the class bouncing from Safari porn to MS Word when the teacher gets close. The validity and use of labs has come full-circle.
As for ANY Windows machine, XP is an abomination, and an XP laptop in the hands of even moderately savy kids will lead to problems I think that that panel of folks at Henrico were either misled or blind to the facts.
Pray for them, but it will be fun to watch.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: what we should do (as in henrico county we, as in I'm a senior there) is have class room sets of iBooks, then have rental stations. You can give the class room sets out for doing work, sync it up to the server to save files (or a thumb drive, or an iPod), and you can rent a iBook for work (projects, etc). After you turn in the iBook it is automatically blasted with a new image, cleaned, and checked for problems.
When I get in a discussion over whole "windows or mac, which is better" discussion, I will easily concede that a person who is good with computers and has self-control (IE won't download anything that "looks cool!") has plenty of good reasons to choose a windows. It is when parents come complaining to me that they have to reinstall windows every few months on their kids computer or else pay a tech guy $50 an hour to come clean up that computer that I freak out and say stuff like, "for the love of god, open your mind! Just get an apple! You won't have this HUGE hassle anymore!"
Unfortunately 99% of people want what they know. Windows wins out by sort of creating this climate of fear among its users that computers are vicious and unpredictable animals, and if you don't stick with what you know - don't tinker with anything because you will never understand what you have done and you will screw things up beyond repair. By this logic, if they get a mac and they've never used Mac OS, they will be paralyzed and unable to do a thing on that new computer. Partner this with the idea that, Macs are so different from PCs that if a kid learns how to use a mac, he won't be prepared for the real world - a world that is run by PCs. Finally, I think maybe the biggest and most justifiable explanation for this is that parents want to be able to help their kids with their computers and the tasks they do on them. If they don't know how to use apples then they feel helpless in that area.
Unfortunately 99% of people want what they know. Windows wins out by sort of creating this climate of fear among its users that computers are vicious and unpredictable animals, and if you don't stick with what you know - don't tinker with anything because you will never understand what you have done and you will screw things up beyond repair. By this logic, if they get a mac and they've never used Mac OS, they will be paralyzed and unable to do a thing on that new computer. Partner this with the idea that, Macs are so different from PCs that if a kid learns how to use a mac, he won't be prepared for the real world - a world that is run by PCs. Finally, I think maybe the biggest and most justifiable explanation for this is that parents want to be able to help their kids with their computers and the tasks they do on them. If they don't know how to use apples then they feel helpless in that area.
i personally think it's best for kids to learn as many operating systems as possible, M$ will not rule forever and it's best to know linux windows and the mac os, every kid knows how to use windows, you go to friends houses who have pc's internet cafés generally have pc's, to go through life and not have to use a pc is a very hard thing to do (i succeed in this fount).
as for the fear of learning a new OS, it is just fear, i told a friend of mine that had never used a mac and had only used windows ME and XP at school, he loves his new ibook and has not asked for any help with it, any reasonably intelligent person can work out how to use a mac within 5 mins to learn the basics and 30 mins to master the entire GUI.
as for the fear of learning a new OS, it is just fear, i told a friend of mine that had never used a mac and had only used windows ME and XP at school, he loves his new ibook and has not asked for any help with it, any reasonably intelligent person can work out how to use a mac within 5 mins to learn the basics and 30 mins to master the entire GUI.
Les Kern said:
This is the problem. It is not just tech savy kids, but the sham/scam artists out there that there that is also a problem.
I am not a total techno-geek, but it does seem that M$ could make XP and future OS's less prone to hijacking.
As to renting (answering mole's comments). There are social/economic issues with that. I would prefer that a student that wanted or needed a system at home could check one out, like any book at the library. Any family that did not have insurance to cover the loss of the computer could get an affordable coverage that could be likened to your rental fee.
I support the idea of giving each student a laptop at the start of the year, only if it replaces the textbooks that they use. Not sure if times have changed much, but I left HS in '76. I went back to my JHS as a substitute teacher in the '77 school year. In my JHS days, the history books were just beginning to accept JFK as president, or in rare cases LBJ as president. And even 4 to 6 years later, the students were using the same text books (I know this as fact since I picked up one, and it had my name in it!).
According to my quick research, there are about 65 million school aged children in the US. According to the Washington Post this past Sunday, we have spent or will spend $186B US for the war in Iraq. That works out to be about $2800 for each school aged student. More than enough IMO to equip each student with a laptop (of any sort) for their 12 years of school.
NCLB was meant to bring about standards. By giving each student a laptop that could be used as an ebook machine, we could ring about a greater ability to have a greater national standard. Yes, it would mean a change in publishing of text books. Instead of 100's on a subject to choose from, it may be 20 or so. But in the end this may raise the standards of what is published. Also there would be an economy of scale issue, that the textbooks could be updated more easily and cheaply.
Maybe, dare I say, allow school districts the ability to participate in e-publishing. Allowing them to pick the best parts of each "book", in order to meet the social needs of their district?
Back to the original post. I do believe that in my experience as a Mac/Windows user, and in the past selling and supporting both platforms - that any wholesale move towards the Windows OS is not in the best interest of limited public funds to support IT.
maxterpiece said:
In a small way MS does foster this idea. Even though they offer Office in both a Win and Mac environment, the GUI is different between the two. And in the Mac space (since it is the "lesser of the two), there is no option to have Windows styled structure. My ex gave up on an eMac that I had bought him because of this Office issue.
And why should MS change? As long as MS is able to offer both the OS and application software, with no laws that state that there needs to be a higher degree of compatibility on offerings on other OS's, MS is able to "double dip". Getting both the OS $ and the application $. Not all software publishers play this sick game.
Adobe, IMO, basically has the same menu and operational structure regardless of the OS you are on. I have bounced freely between Photoshop, Acrobat, and InDesign; and many other programs - without loosing the user experience. I can not say the same for MS products. And as long as we have the current laws we do, why should they?
The other issue at play is that I think some parents are looking at the notebook computers that are to be given to their kids, as "free" computers (since they paid for it, through their tax dollars); that could be used if they needed one for their own work.
Hector said:
My apologies for this third post.
I agree with your post.
The whole issue about different OS's is no different in my mind then the discussion about about the controls that we see in our cars. For these controls could be seen as an OS. They are all different between brands, and even models in the same manufacturer. In the end we cope.
The problem becomes one of where one has two different "cars" (using both cars and computers in this example). We seem to accept that each car has a different way for lets say the wipers, cruise control, or in extreme cases how the transmission is put into gear.
I liken the differences between the MS apps for Mac and Win to being more like if we had to deal with basic day-to-day issues with our cars. How would we respond if GM had a different method of filling up the tank with gas over the Ford? Or that only Jiffy Lube was able to do an oil change on Toyotas and Hondas? Or that Chrysler and Subaru required two keys to get in the trunk of our cars?
In any of the above cases I think that people would scream bloody murder, till the laws were changed.
I am an eighth grader in Henrico County and have had an iBook from them for the past three years. Honestly, I never touch mine...
I'm completly for Mac and would die without my G5 iMac that I live on after school, my whole family refers to any other product as 'The Dark Side' and when Henrico County origanally announced their contract with Apple I flipped out. I was so excited about having an iBook and the county's decision to go with Apple was like a little holiday at my household.
Now here I am, four years later, having had my iBook for three years now, and it is always uncharged, lays in my room, never touched, never even taken to school. Why the change of heart? The school, the school and what they have done to the computers, they terribly fail to mention in this article from the richmond times dispatch the limited memory and the terrible quality of the iBooks, of course, how good can you expect laptops to run after being hauled too and forth from school every day by a 13 year old? The OS X on the G3 machine does not provide for the best quality of actions nd unfortunatly opinions of Apple through middle and highschool students throughout Henrico County have only lowered considerably since the original purchase. The constant failing of the computers is only made worse by the amazing restrictions put on by the county. Originally being so pleased that many of my friends would be introduced to the wonderful world of Apple, I am highly dissapointed at the effect they have had on so many's image of Mac and to know that the rest of the company and it's products are being judged by the iBooks the county provides for us incredibly dissapoints me.
Ah... and now the decision to switch to Dell? After much thought on the matter I've decided that I don't really give a crap, I'm not going to be in Henrico County anyway next year so let them throw it all completly to hell. If the iBooks came out the way they did after four years with teenagers, and if one complained as much about how much the Apple computers broke down and had technical problems then I just can't wait to see how the Dells will survive it. Giving these computers to these kids (yes, including me) is throwing them all to hell, and Macs, being Macs, survived it kind of okay...oh but the Dells, I can't wait to laugh at how they turn out...
The techies at the school who are in charge of taking care of the computers, and setting up internet and printer access for all those children, if they thought it was hard with the Macs, I feel so amazingly sorry for the hell they will go through with the Dells... sucks for you guys, I'm sorry. But I'm glad I'm leaving when I am.
I'm completly for Mac and would die without my G5 iMac that I live on after school, my whole family refers to any other product as 'The Dark Side' and when Henrico County origanally announced their contract with Apple I flipped out. I was so excited about having an iBook and the county's decision to go with Apple was like a little holiday at my household.
Now here I am, four years later, having had my iBook for three years now, and it is always uncharged, lays in my room, never touched, never even taken to school. Why the change of heart? The school, the school and what they have done to the computers, they terribly fail to mention in this article from the richmond times dispatch the limited memory and the terrible quality of the iBooks, of course, how good can you expect laptops to run after being hauled too and forth from school every day by a 13 year old? The OS X on the G3 machine does not provide for the best quality of actions nd unfortunatly opinions of Apple through middle and highschool students throughout Henrico County have only lowered considerably since the original purchase. The constant failing of the computers is only made worse by the amazing restrictions put on by the county. Originally being so pleased that many of my friends would be introduced to the wonderful world of Apple, I am highly dissapointed at the effect they have had on so many's image of Mac and to know that the rest of the company and it's products are being judged by the iBooks the county provides for us incredibly dissapoints me.
Ah... and now the decision to switch to Dell? After much thought on the matter I've decided that I don't really give a crap, I'm not going to be in Henrico County anyway next year so let them throw it all completly to hell. If the iBooks came out the way they did after four years with teenagers, and if one complained as much about how much the Apple computers broke down and had technical problems then I just can't wait to see how the Dells will survive it. Giving these computers to these kids (yes, including me) is throwing them all to hell, and Macs, being Macs, survived it kind of okay...oh but the Dells, I can't wait to laugh at how they turn out...
The techies at the school who are in charge of taking care of the computers, and setting up internet and printer access for all those children, if they thought it was hard with the Macs, I feel so amazingly sorry for the hell they will go through with the Dells... sucks for you guys, I'm sorry. But I'm glad I'm leaving when I am.
The schools in my town did the iBook Deal. I supported them thinking it was a good idea and I personally donated over $15,000 to the middle school to buy them. The middle school bought 40 laptops and now there are about 10 perfect ones, 10 with repairable keyboards (needs keys), 10 with destroyed keyboards, and 10 that are beyond repair. Thats just the middle school, iBooks were also purchased for the 3-5 schools and the highschool.
It upsets me that almost all the iBooks are destoryed and that the school is willing to only put $1100 into fixing them. I also do not understand why they are pretty much going to through them away and replace them with virus and spyware prone PCs not to mension there incredible size. The ones that they chuck maybe I'll try to get fix , and donate to a more deserving school.
The schools above 3rd grade are ditching the macs as well and giving them to the k-2 grade schools (they're gonna have a lot of computers).
My little rant, theres nothing I can do about it.
It upsets me that almost all the iBooks are destoryed and that the school is willing to only put $1100 into fixing them. I also do not understand why they are pretty much going to through them away and replace them with virus and spyware prone PCs not to mension there incredible size. The ones that they chuck maybe I'll try to get fix , and donate to a more deserving school.
The schools above 3rd grade are ditching the macs as well and giving them to the k-2 grade schools (they're gonna have a lot of computers).
My little rant, theres nothing I can do about it.
EJBasile said:
I think that the issue is clearly that these programs was not implemented correctly. The deals go through because the idea is very "buzz creating" - in other words, whoever makes these kinds of deals happen gets a lot of press for revolutionizing how computers are used in schools - probably a bunch of school board members with no imagination. These guys never put any serious thought into how difficult it is to make teachers use computers in their classrooms when they have no such training and are mostly probably stuck in their ways. The board members got their press then, when it doesn't revolutionize anything they blame it on the computer company (apple) and the teachers.
I think it definitely makes sense for a college to give laptops to all their students, but most kids below that age don't know how to take care of things. I've owned several ibooks, and i have to say they are extremely durable machines, but they are also not unbreakable. If a school wanted to do this right they would first shift their focus to teaching their teachers to use computers in classrooms on a day to day basis. Train them to do fun and interesting things through the computer. Once they know what they are doing, then implement the program, and make sure they have a service contract with the laptop provider to repair any problems that come up - even if a kid accidentally drops his ibook in the toilet, they should be prepared to fix it (or replace it as the case may be).
Most ideas can be successful if they are implemented correctly. Henrico apparently was not.
lots of good points on this thread.
I graduated High school in 97, we had no such program for home Laptops or PC's. What I can say from experience is the transition from Macintosh to Compaq in our school computer labs and library during 1996, was an extremely hard battle for both the IT staff and Students in my high school.
I had been a "geek" when it came to computers since I was in 5th grade, so the transition wasn't too terrible for me. We had already purchased an Acer Aspire and loaded it with Windows 95 by this point, so I already knew the OS, and features better then most teachers and students. I ended up with a student IT position to assist Students, and Teachers with Computer related issues during my Senior year.
During the transition my District had to spend $40k over budget for extra Training, support, and hardware to get the Windows systems up to par with the Macintosh computers they replaced. This cost cut into MANY programs and reduced the availability of other activities that students like myself enjoyed. Spyware and viruses were not a problem as much back then, however students found it easier to "hack" the Windows 95 systems then they did the Macintosh computers. The district had attempted multiple security programs such as "fortress", but they were easy for many kids to hack into.
I hope that this more modern transition from the ibook line to Dell doesnt hurt similar programs for this school district. Having gone to a school that did a "switch" to Microsoft based systems from Macintosh, I know a little of what some of these kids will go through
I graduated High school in 97, we had no such program for home Laptops or PC's. What I can say from experience is the transition from Macintosh to Compaq in our school computer labs and library during 1996, was an extremely hard battle for both the IT staff and Students in my high school.
I had been a "geek" when it came to computers since I was in 5th grade, so the transition wasn't too terrible for me. We had already purchased an Acer Aspire and loaded it with Windows 95 by this point, so I already knew the OS, and features better then most teachers and students. I ended up with a student IT position to assist Students, and Teachers with Computer related issues during my Senior year.
During the transition my District had to spend $40k over budget for extra Training, support, and hardware to get the Windows systems up to par with the Macintosh computers they replaced. This cost cut into MANY programs and reduced the availability of other activities that students like myself enjoyed. Spyware and viruses were not a problem as much back then, however students found it easier to "hack" the Windows 95 systems then they did the Macintosh computers. The district had attempted multiple security programs such as "fortress", but they were easy for many kids to hack into.
I hope that this more modern transition from the ibook line to Dell doesnt hurt similar programs for this school district. Having gone to a school that did a "switch" to Microsoft based systems from Macintosh, I know a little of what some of these kids will go through
keyboards are easyly fixable, if a key comes off (which takes a fair bit of effort) you can just push most back on and some keys require you to slot in a wire frame which is not difficult at all, as for those "beyond repair" worst case the logic board is bad probably just failed HD's which happens.
ibooks are very tough laptops, i hate to think what will happen with the dells.
ibooks are very tough laptops, i hate to think what will happen with the dells.
maxterpiece said:
From the outside it may appear so, but in reality the planners at Henrico did indeed spend considerable time on planning the implementation. When they visited my district I saw first-hand what it consisted of, and we grilled them for 8 HOURS on every aspect. They had it going... even down to how to dispose of dead batteries and how and who was to do a swap if there was a dead machine. As for the curriculum it was first-rate. The training they offered first to the staff and then the students was all-encompassing. No, this switch had nothing to do with the "plan". I think it had more to do with too much power in the hands of the willfully deaf. 30 bucks isn't enough to offset the incredibly naive belief that Windows was or is the answer.
Just yesterday I had the ONE PC laptop in my district get a trojan. Virus def were updated, it was a new one. Took FOUR FREAKIN HOURS to get it right. One damn laptop.
They are fools, and I will not pray for them.