HFS+/Win7 x64 boot camp - internal ok, externals "not initialized"

Discussion in 'Windows, Linux & Others on the Mac' started by ScuseMe, Dec 26, 2010.

  1. ScuseMe macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    #1
    Hi,

    I have a boot camp partition along with the HFS+ OS X partition on the internal 1TB HD of my iMac. I also have 2 external 2TB firewire drives partitioned with HFS+, which contain bootable clones of my internal drive. In addition, I have a Time Machine partition and several work partitions..

    Wanting to use the HFS+ formatted externals as data storage for Win7 x64 boot camp installation and knowing about the limitations of the Apple HFS+ driver, I bought and installed Paragon's HFS+ driver package and was immediately thrilled that I could read & write to my HFS+'s partitions. But I failed to notice until much later that - although Win7 shows my internal OS X partition just fine - the external drives all say "unallocated" and "not initialized". When I first entered Disk Management, Win7 offered to initialize the 2 externals. I promptly turned that request down :)

    I read on another forum that possibly the drive letters assigned to the 2 external drives might be clashing with my internal drive letters, but I can't change the drive letters of these 2 volumes until I initialize them. I don't want to do that. I also renamed the AppleMNT.sys and AppleHFS.sys, but that didn't do anything to correct the situation. Likewise with the reinstalling of Paragon HFS+ driver. However, I don't think it's a problem with the Paragon driver; I think it has to do with the partitioning of the external drives.

    Here's my partitioning scheme from the diskutil output. It's disk1 and disk2 that Win7 says are "not initialized":

    Code:
    /dev/disk0
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *1.0 TB     disk0
       1:                        EFI                         209.7 MB   disk0s1
       2:                  Apple_HFS Macintosh HD            669.8 GB   disk0s2
       3:       Microsoft Basic Data BOOTCAMP               219.5 GB   disk0s3
    /dev/disk1
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *2.0 TB     disk1
       1:                  Apple_HFS AV Assets               431.5 GB   disk1s1
       2:                  Apple_HFS iMac Clone 2            858.9 GB   disk1s2
       3:                  Apple_HFS Work                    323.0 GB   disk1s3
       4:                        EFI                         209.7 MB   disk1s4
    /dev/disk2
       #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
       0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *2.0 TB     disk2
       1:                  Apple_HFS Time Machine            933.5 GB   disk2s1
       2:                  Apple_HFS AV Assets Clone         325.7 GB   disk2s2
       3:                  Apple_HFS Mac OS X Install DVD    14.9 GB    disk2s3
       4:                  Apple_HFS iMac Clone 1            688.9 GB   disk2s4
    
    Does anyone have an idea on how I can get Win7 to recognize these HFS+ externals?

    Thanks for your time.
     
  2. balamw Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Location:
    New England
    #2
    rEFIt comes with a utility called showpart. that displays both the GPT and MBR partition tables. Can you download it and post the results.

    I wonder if the problem is that the MBR table is missing.

    B
     
  3. ScuseMe thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    #3
    Hi balamw,

    I have rEFIt installed, so I looked thru its commands for a "showpart". Unfortunately, I can't find it. I booted into the EFI shell and tried every variation of showpart (and I also did a HELP to list the commands), but I couldn't find it. Unless it's now part of gptsync.efi, the showpart command is not in rEFIt 0.14 .

    Or I'm blind, and can't see it.
     
  4. balamw Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Location:
    New England
    #4
    I don't know where/if it is in the binary package. I have built it from the source code and find it quite useful.

    B
     
  5. ScuseMe thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    #5
    balamw,

    It seems that it's not there now. Maybe combined into another utility? Anyway, I ran "gpt show" on one of the externals:

    Code:
    $ sudo gpt show -l disk1
           start        size  index  contents
               0           1         PMBR
               1           1         Pri GPT header
               2          32         Pri GPT table
              34      262174         
          262208   842866272      1  GPT part - "AV Assets"
       843128480  1677459456      2  GPT part - "iMac Clone 2"
      2520587936      262144         
      2520850080   630849792      3  GPT part - "Work"
      3151699872      409600      4  GPT part - "EFI System Partition"
      3152109472   754940827         
      3907050299          32         Sec GPT table
      3907050331           1         Sec GPT header
    
    The other one is generally the same. Does this command provide the info you need?

    Thanks.
     
  6. balamw Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Location:
    New England
    #6
    Odd. It's in the repo and in the source package. They just don't seem to make in available in the binary package.

    http://refit.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/refit/trunk/refit/gptsync/showpart.c?view=log

    I attached a zip file with one I just compiled.

    See how the output shows BOTH the GPT and MBR tables and what it finds in common or not.

    B
     

    Attached Files:

  7. ScuseMe thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    #7
    Thanks balamw! It's great to have another utility at my disposal.

    Here's showpart's output for disk0 (my internal):

    Code:
    $ sudo ./showpart /dev/disk0
    
    Current GPT partition table:
     #      Start LBA      End LBA  Type
     1             40       409639  EFI System (FAT)
     2         409640   1308618791  Mac OS X HFS+
     3     1308880936   1737569016  Basic Data
    
    Current MBR partition table:
     # A    Start LBA      End LBA  Type
     1              1       409639  ee  EFI Protective
     2         409640   1308618791  af  Mac OS X HFS+
     3 *   1308880936   1737569016  07  NTFS/HPFS
    
    MBR contents:
     Boot Code: Unknown, but bootable
    
    Partition at LBA 40:
     Boot Code: None (Non-system disk message)
     File System: FAT32
     Listed in GPT as partition 1, type EFI System (FAT)
    
    Partition at LBA 409640:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 2, type Mac OS X HFS+
     Listed in MBR as partition 2, type af  Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 1308880936:
     Boot Code: Windows BOOTMGR (Vista)
     File System: NTFS
     Listed in GPT as partition 3, type Basic Data
     Listed in MBR as partition 3, type 07  NTFS/HPFS, active
    
    
    disk1:

    Code:
    $ sudo ./showpart /dev/disk1
    
    Current GPT partition table:
     #      Start LBA      End LBA  Type
     1         262208    843128479  Mac OS X HFS+
     2      843128480   2520587935  Mac OS X HFS+
     3     2520850080   3151699871  Mac OS X HFS+
     4     3151699872   3152109471  EFI System (FAT)
    
    Current MBR partition table:
     # A    Start LBA      End LBA  Type
     1              1   3907050331  ee  EFI Protective
    
    MBR contents:
     Boot Code: None
    
    Partition at LBA 262208:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 1, type Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 843128480:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 2, type Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 2520850080:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 3, type Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 3151699872:
     Boot Code: None (Non-system disk message)
     File System: FAT32
     Listed in GPT as partition 4, type EFI System (FAT)
    

    And here's disk2:

    Code:
    $ sudo ./showpart /dev/disk2
    
    Current GPT partition table:
     #      Start LBA      End LBA  Type
     1         262208   1823485975  Mac OS X HFS+
     2     1823485976   2459546775  Mac OS X HFS+
     3     3833919728   3862954455  Mac OS X HFS+
     4     2488319360   3833919727  Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Current MBR partition table:
     # A    Start LBA      End LBA  Type
     1              1   3907029167  ee  EFI Protective
    
    MBR contents:
     Boot Code: None
    
    Partition at LBA 262208:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 1, type Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 1823485976:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 2, type Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 3833919728:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 3, type Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 2488319360:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 4, type Mac OS X HFS+
    
    I aldo have iPartition, which I used to set up the external's partitions. I looked at its Help, and it mentioned something about only 3 partitions are available to Windows (I don't know if the Help applies to Win7 or not). According to iPartition, only the Boot Camp partition has the attribute "Visible in Windows" set. I'm not too familiar with Windows' partitioning schemes to know if the external HFS+ volumes need to have this attribute set to ON for Win7 to display the external's HFS+ partitions.
     
  8. balamw Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Location:
    New England
    #8
    Wow that's funky.

    iPartition set them up with a protective EFI in the MBR for all of the partitions and put the EFI System partition for /dev/disk1 at the end of the drive. How strange! What's it doing with all the extra space at the front and back of the drive?

    What's odd is that W764 is supposed to handle GPT disks OK so why isn't it just reading the GPT partition table?

    You could try gptsync (also from the same source folder in rEFIt) to have it copy what is in the GPT over to the MBR. The partition number limit you are referring to is from the MBR which only allows for four primary partitions. The EFI System partition (hidden under OS X) usually takes up one of those slots and that leaves you with three.

    B
     
  9. ScuseMe thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    #9
    balamw,

    Thanks for the info, and for setting me straight about the visible partitions in Windows.

    That funky partitioning may be my fault. I originally set up the drives with Apple Partition Map (the default for DU), but I then wanted to create booting partitions for my SL DVD and 2 copies of my internal OS X partition. I thought I'd need to delete and repartition (Apple's recommendation), when I saw that iPartition can change the partitioning scheme without wiping the drives. I then used iPartition to change both drives to GUID. I've been maintaining the drives with iPartition, but DU initially set them up (hence my partitioning problem).

    I saw the gptsync utility in rEFIt, but I was afraid to run it on my externals, fearing I would lose their data.
     
  10. balamw Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Location:
    New England
    #10
    That makes sense.

    I've made that mistake myself when I upgraded the HDD in my MB.

    I too would be leery about that change without a backup, so I don't blame you.

    It definitely seems like Windows really wants the EFI System partition to be the first partition on the drive for GPT drives. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFI_System_partition you might be able to squeeze one in on disk1 (MS recommends a 100 Mb EFI System Partition vs. Apple's 200 MB) and still be able to access all of the partitions, but on disk2 since you already have 4 data partitions this might be difficult.

    B
     
  11. ScuseMe, Dec 27, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010

    ScuseMe thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    #11
    That explains why W7 is asking me to initialize those 2 disks with GPT or MBR - it expects them to have the EFI's first. Since they're not, W7 doesn't know how to read them. That also explains why Paragon's Backup & Restore 10 Home can see these partitions where W7 can't, and why B&R won't write to those partitions, since they don't follow the Windows convention.

    On disk2, I still have 34 GB free, so I think I could squeeze the EFI partitions on both disks. But I assume that I'd have to have iPartition insert the EFI's and move the data around on the disk. I know it took a few hours to change the Apple Partition Map to GUID, so this could conceivably take even longer.

    Maybe I should forget this whole idea and just get another drive for W7 to use :)

    Thank you balamw for your time and assistance.
     
  12. ScuseMe thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    #12
    The final resolution was that iPartition has an option to "show partitions to Windows". This is off by default. By turning it on for the partitions, Windows was able to read the partitions.
     
  13. balamw Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Location:
    New England
    #13
    Awesome! Can you post how showpart sees them now that they work?

    B
     
  14. ScuseMe thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    #14
    Code:
    $ sudo ./showpart /dev/disk1
    
    Current GPT partition table:
     #      Start LBA      End LBA  Type
     1     3151699872   3152109471  EFI System (FAT)
     2         262208    843128479  Mac OS X HFS+
     3      843128480   2520587935  Mac OS X HFS+
     4     2520850080   3151699871  Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Current MBR partition table:
     # A    Start LBA      End LBA  Type
     1              1       262207  ee  EFI Protective
     2         262208    843128479  af  Mac OS X HFS+
     3      843128480   2520587935  af  Mac OS X HFS+
     4     2520850080   3151699871  af  Mac OS X HFS+
    
    MBR contents:
     Boot Code: None
    
    Partition at LBA 3151699872:
     Boot Code: None (Non-system disk message)
     File System: FAT32
     Listed in GPT as partition 1, type EFI System (FAT)
    
    Partition at LBA 262208:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 2, type Mac OS X HFS+
     Listed in MBR as partition 2, type af  Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 843128480:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 3, type Mac OS X HFS+
     Listed in MBR as partition 3, type af  Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 2520850080:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 4, type Mac OS X HFS+
     Listed in MBR as partition 4, type af  Mac OS X HFS+
    

    Code:
    $ sudo ./showpart /dev/disk2
    Password:
    
    Current GPT partition table:
     #      Start LBA      End LBA  Type
     1     3833919728   3862954455  Mac OS X HFS+
     2         262208   1823485975  Mac OS X HFS+
     3     1823485976   2459546775  Mac OS X HFS+
     4     2488319360   3833919727  Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Current MBR partition table:
     # A    Start LBA      End LBA  Type
     1              1       262207  ee  EFI Protective
     2         262208   1823485975  af  Mac OS X HFS+
     3     1823485976   2459546775  af  Mac OS X HFS+
     4     2488319360   3833919727  af  Mac OS X HFS+
    
    MBR contents:
     Boot Code: None
    
    Partition at LBA 3833919728:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 1, type Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 262208:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 2, type Mac OS X HFS+
     Listed in MBR as partition 2, type af  Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 1823485976:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 3, type Mac OS X HFS+
     Listed in MBR as partition 3, type af  Mac OS X HFS+
    
    Partition at LBA 2488319360:
     Boot Code: None
     File System: HFS Extended (HFS+)
     Listed in GPT as partition 4, type Mac OS X HFS+
     Listed in MBR as partition 4, type af  Mac OS X HFS+
    
    As you said balamw, the EFI partition needed to be first for Windows to see it.
     
  15. balamw Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Location:
    New England
    #15
    I think the other main difference is that it populated the hybrid MBR! You could have done that with gptsync or gdisk.

    Glad you solved it.

    B
     

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