HomeKit Homekit with Thread

[tbone7467]

Is there any benefits with HomeKit/Thread?

What I mean has anyone noticed anything since it was implimented. Is it faster? is it More Stable? is it just More expensive now that you've replaced things?

With the iPhone 15 having thread support im curious about the benefits since they have now included thread.

Ive read articles that Thread is still disjointed. That manufactures have agreed to include it, but everyone is a little different on implementation and interoperability issues exist.

 

[clarifix]

No, there are no benefits, and if things currently work fine, stay away from it. It is not faster. It is not more stable. On the contrary. Thread devices randomly disconnect for hours, sometimes days, to reappear later for no apparant reason. I do not think Thread by itself is the problem. Homekit always had issues, and continues the tradition of poorly maintained software.

 

[Burger Thing]

I was just about to start a thread about Thread... So far my experience with Thread devices have been disappointing and matches the observations by Clarifix above. I am thinking of changing my various sensors in the house back to Zigbee 🤬. Thread and Homekit sucks. Full stop.

 

[tbone7467]

Yeah that is not what i was hoping to hear. I honestly wish there was more updates and focus on Homekit in each new iteration. I feel like there is a lot more they can do just to make things better. I was hoping Thread would help speed things up on the home side. not that its slow but My lutron caseta is light years along in stability and snappiness.

 

[wegster]

Thread, being simplified, is essentially an updated Zigbee. Zigbee has been around for decades (Hue bridge and bulbs use Zigbee, but it predates them as well), and is a non-wi-fi mesh network which is dynamically formed across devices (such as bulbs for Hue). It inherently is ‘local control’ with no requirement to go to the Internet, and is pretty fast. I’d strongly prefer it to any wi-fi-needing-internet type of devices.

I am seeing similar behavior on the dropouts on 17.1 with Home nw architecture, but it seems limited to my nanoleaf bulbs (at least for thread devices), with my Eve Motion sensors generally staying connected.

Havng said that, Homekit seems to be a mess. New architecture should have any Home apps doing a query to the primary hub (which should remain a hard-witted device if you have any, e.g. AppleTV with ethernet to a switch or router), yet just opening Home takes a relatively long time just ‘updating.’

I recently decided to move away from my collection of cheap Black Friday Echo devices spending hundreds on HomePod Minis and am pretty underwhelmed so far. My Hue system which has been near flawless for 5+ years now, suddenly has ‘not responding’ devices. Homekit automations are overly simplified and limiting (I believe you can do a bit more via their APIs but that doesn’t help if using the Home app). The Home app itself is kind of kludgy - why would you not have a light toggle or all devices off toggle next to each group?

Siri on Homepod minis does ‘ok’- when Homekit isnt busy offlining devices with no issues until connecting to Homekit. Thread devices seem mixed -not due to the radio tech being used or the protocol spec, but probably a combination of device manufacturer implementation, Apple implementation, in addition to what seems to me overall Homekit not-quite-there-yet-so-lets-add-more-junior-devs-nstead-of-people-that-could-fix-it state.

 

[wegster]

I’m probably giving up on the nanoleaf Matter over Thread - they just won’t stay connected.
The only other (US) source of Matter over Thread A19 (standard bulb) I’ve found is Mujoy A19. Mujoy is one of several brands under AIDot. Sadly they only seem to sell them in single packs at the moment for ~$20 each. I have one coming to see how it goes.

 

[waw74]

why would you not have a light toggle or all devices off toggle next to each group?

On the individual device tiles, if you tap the icon, it will toggle on/off, if you tap the tile, you get the controls.

on the top of the screen, in the new-ish row of device types, if you long press the lights group, the first option is "all lights off".
or if you click that, and go to the lights page, at the top if any lights are on you'll get a small tile with "<number> lights on" if you tap that, it will turn everything off. If you tap it again, it will restore the lights it just turned off (not sure how long after turning off it holds that though).

I believe you can do a bit more via their APIs but that doesn’t help if using the Home app.

Just because you're using the home app, doesn't mean you have to use only the home app. All of the alternatives just tie into the same back end, and things created in one, show up in the other.
Two popular options are eve (free) and controller for homekit (free, paid for some features).
Eve will allow you to add conditions to automations (you could probably do with shortcuts in the home app). Eve also lets you drag/drop or copy/paste settings from one light to another. Helpful when setting up scenes and you're trying to get a bunch of lights to match. You can also view by room or by type. So if you want to alter a scene, just open and go to the level page, and on one page, you have a fader for each bulb in that scene that you can adjust, instead of having to go through multiple tiles. Eve gives you some extra features when controlling eve devices, but you don't need any eve devices to download the app and use it.
Controller lets you copy an entire device to another. Last year I switched out some older Hue color bulbs, for the newer brighter version. I was able to clone the settings onto the new bulbs. so all of my scenes and automations just worked for the new bulbs without having to re-build them. (this is a paid feature)

I normally use the home app for day to day control (or Siri). Eve for creating/modifying scenes (plus it runs on Apple Silicon Macs). Controller mainly just that one time to clone those pictures,

 

[wegster]

On the individual device tiles, if you tap the icon, it will toggle on/off, if you tap the tile, you get the controls.

on the top of the screen, in the new-ish row of device types, if you long press the lights group, the first option is "all lights off".
or if you click that, and go to the lights page, at the top if any lights are on you'll get a small tile with "<number> lights on" if you tap that, it will turn everything off. If you tap it again, it will restore the lights it just turned off (not sure how long after turning off it holds that though).

I know about the ‘summary at top’ but a good tip on the long press.
Still, seems a ‘summary icon set’ next to each room/group would improve things, at least for me.

Just because you're using the home app, doesn't mean you have to use only the home app. All of the alternatives just tie into the same back end, and things created in one, show up in the other.
Two popular options are eve (free) and controller for homekit (free, paid for some features).
Eve will allow you to add conditions to automations (you could probably do with shortcuts in the home app). Eve also lets you drag/drop or copy/paste settings from one light to another. Helpful when setting up scenes and you're trying to get a bunch of lights to match. You can also view by room or by type. So if you want to alter a scene, just open and go to the level page, and on one page, you have a fader for each bulb in that scene that you can adjust, instead of having to go through multiple tiles. Eve gives you some extra features when controlling eve devices, but you don't need any eve devices to download the app and use it.
Controller lets you copy an entire device to another. Last year I switched out some older Hue color bulbs, for the newer brighter version. I was able to clone the settings onto the new bulbs. so all of my scenes and automations just worked for the new bulbs without having to re-build them. (this is a paid feature)

I normally use the home app for day to day control (or Siri). Eve for creating/modifying scenes (plus it runs on Apple Silicon Macs). Controller mainly just that one time to clone those pictures,

Yep, Eve was one of the ones I was thinking of when I mentioned ‘APIs exist but aren’t exposed via Home.’
I’’m in process of setting up a ‘supervised’ Home Assistant on an Intel NUC and will see how that goes. I don’t have an issue gong into other apps for one-off or initial configuration, but Home by itself is just too limiting IMO, not really serving the crowd looking for ‘it just works’ or anyone just looking for common sense scripting (if motion at night AND light is NOT on, turn on and turn off after 5 mins of non-activity’ but if lights ARE on, don’t trigger and the shut off, etc.) - I think I did wind up in Eve for the ‘motion nightlight’ enablement, but I need to go look again as it still has the undesired behavior)…let alone those wanting ‘more.’

I’ll have to install Eve on my mbp14 - does it run as a phone-sized app? Home automation apps beyond basics almost yearn for iPad or normal displays yet at least a few of the accessory apps won’t even do landscape mode on iPad.

That is cool RE: Controller and config cloning for migration or replacements. I’ve got some ~35 Hue bulbs scattered across numerous rooms, and probably more Zigbee (would prefer consistent and stay-online Thread but choices are few there at the moment) bulbs, so am somewhat considering if I should just lose the Phillips hub once HA is up..or not.

What remains confusing is if/when <vendor apps> are needed at all, as well as it seems like ’convert to Siri shortcut’ seems to actually open up more conditions than the Home app. The first I’d rather avoid entirely but it’s unclear if ALL Matter(Thread or not) or HK-compatible(== wi-fi or BT/BLE I guess? ) will update firmware without the vendor app.. ? The shortcuts aren’t so clear as to their benefits, and if they are local to the device created on or can then be triggered vs any home-connected-siri-enabled device?

 

[waw74]

Eve runs as a regular app. (not phone sized). But it only runs on apple silicon, won't work on intel.
it feels more like an iPad app, you can resize the window, but some things stay in a narrow column.

I think eve is basically just building shortcuts, using a different gui to do it.
You can do most of the same stuff in the home app, but eve is a little more streamlined. You can add conditions to a homekit automation, but you have to add an "if" statement, which can be a little clunky with shortcut's drag and drop scripting.


I use a program called homeseer, all of my devices are available both in home and and HS, I've got Hue which has a plug-in for HS, and I've got z-wave light switches, roller shades, and sensors (temperature and door) which are in HS, and use a homebridge plug-in to pull those into homekit.

any thing requiring more than basic scripting happens in homeseer
I've been using HS for 20ish years, it still works well, but if I was starting today, I might go home assistant.

Homekit is used for daily control, usually through siri. I don't touch homeseer that often.


apple shortcuts will run on any device signed into your appleID (they sync over iCloud). When using the HomePod, some actions might require your phone to be on the same network. But those are things that require an app to run, so can't run on HomePod.

 

[inuragon]

I’d strongly prefer it to any wi-fi-needing-internet type of devices.

True, but keep in mind there is no inherent need for wifi devices to connect to internet, they could be designed for local network only as well.
With thread the benefits will probably vary, different users have different routers and varying amounts of wifi devices, so wifi smart device performance can be good or bad, depends on that whether thread will be better or not.

 

[Burger Thing]

One observation after a few months comparing different Motion & Light Sensors (One Brand With Thread and the other using Zigbee). The one with Thread is not as reliable and uses more battery power). If I had to set up apartment again, I would use Zigbee.