Honda and Aston Martin - Say it ain't so!

[Lord Blackadder]

Neither of these cars are particularly "new", both have been shown last year but neither is in production yet and I haven't seen them discussed here, so I'm going to rant and see what you all think.

First up, the Aston Martin Cygnet. No. Just, no. NO. I dislike badge engineering anyway but this is just a REALLY bad idea. Worse than the Porsche Cayenne. Worse than the Saab 9-7X. It's just horrific. Astons are supposed to be big, sexy GTs. Putting an Aston badge on a clumsily restyled Toyota iQ (makes it look worse, if that's possible) is just goofy.

On top of all that, it's an exercise in wasteful snobbery. Apparently the cars will initially only be available to current Aston owners, the thought being that it's a way for the Haves to be just as economical as the Have Nots when they are not driving their "big" Aston around. This logic presupposes that said Haves are just too good to actually buy an iQ and drive it - they need Aston to tear up a perfectly good iQ and slap an Aston badge on it. For shame!

Second, the Honda CR-Z...I saw this one in person at the Detroit Auto Show this year. Best looking Honda right now I think, and tantalizingly close to the kind of small, sporty Honda I'd like to drive. But they ruined it by making it a hybrid. I don't think it will work unless it's a LOT cheaper than the Insight. I liked the original CRX. It was a bit awful with an automatic but it was a great small car. This, on the other hand, is too underpowered for sporting pretensions, and the aftermarket/motorsport crowd won't touch it because it's a whiz-bang hybrid. I think Honda should have just made a new version of the CRX. Hybrids are very flavor-of-the-month right now but I'd rather see a diesel or small gasoline engine in this car, especially if it's supposed to be sporty. Either way it's going to be small, light and economical...

 

[GoCubsGo]

On the Honda, it is underpowered for sporting? I would have to agree but say ... DUH! How many hybrids are out there and considered to be "powered for sporting?"

The Aston is stupid as sin.

 

[xUKHCx]

To be honest I have always had a real soft spot for the IQ (althought I would never buy one) and I have a real soft spot for Astons. So this is really a car designed for me

However I dislike the sytling and the idea of the car.

If you bought one it would be quite like buying a Porsche Boxer.


I loved the orginal CRX, this updated version looks pretty nice. I'd be interested to see if they could do anything sporty with the hybrid but would prefer a straight up diesel.

 

[leekohler]

The Honda is cool, but the Aston Martin is a crime against design.

 

[dmr727]

I like the idea of the CR-Z. I'd need to know pricing, how it's powered, and so on before I can form a strong opinion on it though. Like xUKHCx mentioned, diesel would be sweet. I think a natural gas option would be cool too.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

DUH! How many hybrids are out there and considered to be "powered for sporting?"

That is exactly what someone at Honda SHOULD have said before the car got the green light.

To be honest I have always had a real soft spot for the IQ (althought I would never buy one) and I have a real soft spot for Astons. So this is really a car designed for me

I like Astons...and the iQ is very clever. But the two should not meet.

...would prefer a straight up diesel.

I agree. Especially if they sent it here to the States, where we are starved for oil-burning options. this car with a diesel would have great torque and still get very good fuel economy. In a perfect world we'd get a base model wiith a 1.5L or 1.6L gas engine, and then diesel and turbo (gas) options.

 

[remmy]

That Aston is terrible, who ever designed that totally fugly

 

[SpookTheHamster]

Aside from the fake hood vents I quite like the Cygnet, and when you actually hear their reasons it makes sense (in a make more money kind of way).

Aston surveyed their customers and found that quite a lot of them were buying Smart Cars/Minis and other small 'premium' cars as city cars and runabouts. The Cygnet is a way for them to sell two cars to one customer, and it's cheaper than some of the options on the accessory list.

 

[MacNut]

Those are some ugly cars.

 

[killerrobot]

The Aston Martin looks like a SMART car's older brother. Not a big fan of the design.
The CRZ is probably the best looking design that the CR line has ever had, which really isn't saying much.
The car I've been looking at as of late is the Accord Crosstour. I think it has much more potential than either of the two mentioned above.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Aston surveyed their customers and found that quite a lot of them were buying Smart Cars/Minis and other small 'premium' cars as city cars and runabouts. The Cygnet is a way for them to sell two cars to one customer, and it's cheaper than some of the options on the accessory list.

I won't deny there may be some business sense there. But in the process they are soiling the marque. Or maybe I am just waxing purist. I'm too poor to buy even a Cygnet. Or an iQ for that matter.

The car I've been looking at as of late is the Accord Crosstour. I think it has much more potential than either of the two mentioned above.

I saw one in Detroit...interesting, though it looks uglier in person. It seems like another attempt to create a wagon that isn't a wagon...I'd rather have a Subaru Legacy myself.

The CR-Z is more exciting to me because it's a small, lightweight sporty car...apart from the hybrid bit.

 

[killerrobot]

I saw one in Detroit...interesting, though it looks uglier in person. It seems like another attempt to create a wagon that isn't a wagon...I'd rather have a Subaru Legacy myself.

The CR-Z is more exciting to me because it's a small, lightweight sporty car...apart from the hybrid bit.

Yeah I still haven't checked it out in person yet. Opinions might change then... but I think I'm excited about it because it seems more of a hatchback than a crossover - and I've always been a fan of hatchbacks.

 

[Disc Golfer]

The back of the cr-z looks like a car version of the pontiac aztek.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

On the Honda, it is underpowered for sporting? I would have to agree but say ... DUH! How many hybrids are out there and considered to be "powered for sporting?"

The Aston is stupid as sin.

Tell you the truth there are a few sporting hybrids out there. I believe lexus makes a few of them and I have heard of some in smaller more premuim brands.

Hybrids can honestly make some kick ass sports cars and have some huge advantages over a single type either way.

For standard combustion motors have great power at high RPM but suck at low RPM. Case and point look at the S2000 2.0L engine or any of Honda VTEC engines. Great power high end but crap low end. Now those are more exterme engines but the point stands is all the power is at higher RPM and max power is at the higher RPMS across the board. Electric motors make the most power at low RPMs. Mix and match that and you can get some great power. Use the electric motor to fill in the power at lower RPM and combustion motor to focus at the higher speeds.

Best of both worlds just as the way hybrids work. Hell some hybrids are able to put out more power than the straight combustion motors when you combined the 2 engines and they get better gas mileage to boot.

 

[Intense]

a hybrid has enough of a performance kick to get you out of an emergency maneuver and some additional kicks for the road as well ... I am a wishfull thinker and I wouldn't be surprised if in five years or so the electric cars will have some kind of performance advantage over the gas/diesel engines.


I agree with you on the badge-slap technique ... that's just ridiculous ... as for the design of both cars, both attracted my attention and I'd see myself driving both.


iCar

 

[quagmire]

Both are just plain outright ugly. Honda and Toyota have tried to make their cars look less bland and generic and failed. They might as well just continued with the generic look especially with Acura.........

Anyway, electric motors make all their power at 0 RPM. So that is cool. But, there are gas engines out there that make their power low in the powerband. There is BMW's N54 and N55 engines making their torque at 1200-1500 RPM. The 3.6 V6 in my Aura makes its torque at 3200 RPM. It is just Honda that has no low end power at all in their engines without getting into the exotics.....

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Best of both worlds just as the way hybrids work. Hell some hybrids are able to put out more power than the straight combustion motors when you combined the 2 engines and they get better gas mileage to boot.

It's true that electric motors have great torque characteristics.

It all comes at a significant weight penalty though, because motors and batteries are heavy. Cars like the Tesla achieve good performance by ditching the internal combustion motor altogether and relying on fancy Li-Ion batteries. But that route is horrifyingly expensive at the moment.

A car like the CR-Z will always be slower as a hybrid with current technology, because hybrids have several motors and a battery pack, whereas a "normal" car has only one. That means additional weight. Plus,a hybrid powertrain uses an undersized internal combustion engine.

Speaking of which, why hasn't anyone built a diesel hybrid yet, Hmm? The Prius is rated for 50ish mpg city...I'll bet a similarly sized diesel hybrid could rack 70mpg with ease.

 

[Synchromesh]

I liked the original CRX. It was a bit awful with an automatic but it was a great small car.

CRX with automatic is a pure sin. Just like Miata or Ferrari.

Hybrids are very flavor-of-the-month right now but I'd rather see a diesel or small gasoline engine in this car, especially if it's supposed to be sporty. Either way it's going to be small, light and economical...

I own an Integra GS-R (8100rpm redline) and I've driven various high-revving VTEC equipped Hondas from Civic Si to S2000. Please, no diesel. It would be a horrible match if you want to keep this Honda true to its roots. Leave diesel to zee Gehmanz. A good Honda engine for this should be a small displacement high-revving I4 with VTEC. Those are the ones they do best.

Aston Martin is a pure abomination. Don't think anyone will consider this a real AM just like nobody really considers the Saabaru (SAAB 9-2X) a true SAAB.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

It's true that electric motors have great torque characteristics.

It all comes at a significant weight penalty though, because motors and batteries are heavy. Cars like the Tesla achieve good performance by ditching the internal combustion motor altogether and relying on fancy Li-Ion batteries. But that route is horrifyingly expensive at the moment.

A car like the CR-Z will always be slower as a hybrid with current technology, because hybrids have several motors and a battery pack, whereas a "normal" car has only one. That means additional weight. Plus,a hybrid powertrain uses an undersized internal combustion engine.

Speaking of which, why hasn't anyone built a diesel hybrid yet, Hmm? The Prius is rated for 50ish mpg city...I'll bet a similarly sized diesel hybrid could rack 70mpg with ease.

The weight penalty might not be as much as you think because the combustion engine is smaller so it going to weigh less. That loss lb is going to go into the batteries and eletric monitor.

As for diesel hybrid not being built I can think of one reason is the way diesel engines run and start up is not as good as an unleaded. Remember diesel have to get up to temperature before they are very good and they are not good for turning on and off. Also you can not prim a cylinder before hand like on an unleaded. In an unleaded car the engine can stop exactly were it needs to be and just have a spark be thrown and it spins up. I want to say they can make unleaded engines and can start up in 1/4 of a crank. Not something currently possible to do with a diesel as it requires priming a cylinder with gas before hand.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I was just thinking how much the Aston Martin Cygnet reminds me of the Cadillac Cimarron, but even worse. I just pray Ferrari is never tempted to do this. Little Fiats are already sexy anyway, they don;t need to be re-badged.

CRX with automatic is a pure sin. Just like Miata or Ferrari.

Yes. I knew a guy who had a '90 CRX with an automatic, and it was a total dog. With a manual it was a fun car to drive though.

I own an Integra GS-R (8100rpm redline) and I've driven various high-revving VTEC equipped Hondas from Civic Si to S2000. Please, no diesel. It would be a horrible match if you want to keep this Honda true to its roots. Leave diesel to zee Gehmanz. A good Honda engine for this should be a small displacement high-revving I4 with VTEC. Those are the ones they do best.

I love diesels. But I'll admit that gas engines are smooth and revy in comparison. An engineer friend of mine has an Integra GS-R to which he's added a Garrett GT28RS turbo with intercooler, Type-R gearbox (with the taller base Integra 5th gear for fuel economy), Quaife LSD and a few other goodies. 286ish bhp at the wheels and it is disgustingly fast. A little boy-racerish for my tastes but a very fine car. I kinda liked it more before all the modifications though.

Aston Martin is a pure abomination. Don't think anyone will consider this a real AM just like nobody really considers the Saabaru (SAAB 9-2X) a true SAAB.

I actually liked the Saabaru, but that's mostly because the WRX is a great car and they didn't change the good parts. But you'd have to be a fool to pay the difference for a Saab badge.

The weight penalty might not be as much as you think because the combustion engine is smaller so it going to weigh less. That loss lb is going to go into the batteries and eletric monitor.

As for diesel hybrid not being built I can think of one reason is the way diesel engines run and start up is not as good as an unleaded.

Well, time will tell if they can overcome the challenges, but I've been reading up on proposed diesel hybrids...especially the serial hybrids that use the diesel strictly to provide electricity...and using this technology a Golf-sized car should be able to get well over 100mpg.

 

[Synchromesh]

I love diesels. But I'll admit that gas engines are smooth and revy in comparison. An engineer friend of mine has an Integra GS-R to which he's added a Garrett GT28RS turbo with intercooler, Type-R gearbox (with the taller base Integra 5th gear for fuel economy), Quaife LSD and a few other goodies. 286ish bhp at the wheels and it is disgustingly fast. A little boy-racerish for my tastes but a very fine car. I kinda liked it more before all the modifications though.

You'll love mine then, it's bone stock except K&N filter that drops in stock airbox, an mp3 player and a nice dent on the rear door (damn SUVs). It's also pretty rare being a sedan and not a coupe. In all 5 years of owning it I barely saw a handful of these on the streets as the 2-doors is far more common.

The gearshift is still one of the best in business and my other car is a Mazda Miata. The only better shifter I can recall was in S2000. The engine is sweet and gets 30mpg on average. Reliability is excellent too for a 10 year old vehicle. I've been searching for a replacement for a while but still can't find anything that would beat it in every aspect.

 

[Zombie Acorn]

No one is going to buy that AM because it looks good thats for sure.

 

[Buzz Bumble]

On top of all that, it's an exercise in wasteful snobbery. Apparently the cars will initially only be available to current Aston owners.

The idea is so that the husband can drive the proper Aston Martin, while the wife has a small shopping cart for daily use ... or the little thing is designed to be put in the boot / trunk of the proper Aston Martin so you can use it to go and get more petrol when the bigger car runs out (which is about every 50cm).

 

[Abstract]

Aston surveyed their customers and found that quite a lot of them were buying Smart Cars/Minis and other small 'premium' cars as city cars and runabouts. The Cygnet is a way for them to sell two cars to one customer, and it's cheaper than some of the options on the accessory list.

Funny, because the first thing I thought was that AM shouldn't sell that car outright. It should be an optional accessory available to everyone who buys a "real" Aston Martin car from now on. Make it a $25k accessory. Many of their stereo upgrades cost that much anyway.

 

[ntrigue]

The instant torque from a hybrid could make it more drivable. Ultimately it is a sheep in wolves' clothing. I loved my '89 Si.